How is this achieved: Lighting in Promo Images?
tl155180
Posts: 994
I'm sure some of us have felt this way at some point... Sometimes I manage to go for short periods of time deluding myself that my skills in Daz aren't too bad and that I can produce half-decent images when I really try and I'm relatively content. Then every so often I compare my images to some of those that appear in promos in the store and I realise just how rubbish I still am at this hobby and it makes me feel like throwing in the towel. It seems like no matter how much effort I put in or how many hours of trial and error I go through I just can't get close to the kind of art I set out to emulate with Daz 
. I know that a lot of these artists have been honing their skills for years and I've only been at it for just over 1 year but I was hoping I would've made more progress by now. I can't help feeling like the lack of tutorials, or manuals, or even (heaven forbid!) courses is somewhat the problem. Its almost as if Daz jealously guards their secrets for how to make great art whilst simultaneously trying to convince us that we can do it too.
Take the new promo images for Olympia 7, for instance (http://www.daz3d.com/olympia-7). Would some kind soul be able to explain to me please just how they've achieved that lighting in Iray within a geometrically closed set (http://www.daz3d.com/dm-s-thermae)? The whole room is well lit and so is the figure and I know from bitter experience that matching those 2 things up is incredibly difficult.
I mean, would it kill the people at Daz to produce a short video or something to show how these things were done occasionally? They're trying to sell us a product here after all, not designing a Formula 1 car that needs to be kept secret from the other teams.
Rant over. I'm going off to cry now 
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Comments
Seconded.... and thirded... and fourthed and fifthed.....
Thanks. That means a lot to me
For one thing, there's a good chance that just off-camera there's a spotlight with geometry or similar providing lighting for the figure. (A 'softbox,' in photography parlance)
One thing I've found vital to evolving my Iray skills is adopting more photography tips (and I have next to 0 experience with photography), and worry less about realistic simulation. I was working on this incredibly detailed old wizard, and I was going nuts wondering why the heck all his facial details just washed out. He looked... horrible. And not in the intentional way.
And then it occurred to me... sure enough, putting a softbox a little to the left of the camera view made a HUGE difference. HUGE. Suddenly I could see all those bumps and wrinkles and details that had just vanished before.
I don't have a good 'before I changed the lighting,' but this was the final result. (Not as good as that Olympia image, but still, you get the idea)
http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/The-Wizard-572407090
Rather than a video, it would be nice to just get the duf file for the promo, then you could see all the lights, poses, render settings etc used to create the promo, and in theory all you need to do is press render to get an identical image.
This is sort of available already with some of the images posted in the DAZ gallery if the author has decided to include the scene file. You would need to own all the contents in the scene file, but you could still learn things from it even if you did not have everything.
That set has a lot of windows in it. It looks like they're using an HDRI for global lighting "outside" (given the clouds you can see outside I figure they're rendering the dome with the HDRI in it, otherwise it could just be sun/sky) - the windows are letting a decent amount of that light in.
The interior has a bunch of lights on the walls. Seems like they might be using IES profiles in those. Maybe just simple emissive objects, or spots, but for your purposes IES profiles will do the job simply and effectively.
So that probably accounts for much of the "ambient" lighting in the set.
Then, as timmins.william said, it's highly likely they're using one or more "off camera" lights focused at the model herself too for some of those shots.
In others, like this one: 09-daz3d_olympia-7_.jpg it seems like they're just relying on the "ambient" light set up to take care of things.
A thing that's helped me for lighting figures for portraitish type stuff is reading up on three point lighting. You can buy prefab 3 point light setups here in the store, but knowing some principles about them will help you improve your lighting regardless, so I recommend starting from there.
Just playing with 3 point light setups - changing the positions, colors, intensity, color temperature, angles, etc. - will teach you a lot about working with lighting in studio.
There is a tutorial out there showing how the promo picture for, I think, Gia, was done... I can't find it, no matter how much I hit google, but I'll keep looking for you.
And I certainly know what you mean. It's real easy to get discouraged, especially if you're new. (I wrote an article about being new to 3d art for the DS Creative magazine).
What helped me a lot was finding the Core Lighting packs and Adams' Render scripts (both for 3DL), using them, very quickly, and I was getting the "look" I wanted...that had drawn me into 3D art. From there, I've branched into playing with iRay and Reality/Lux...having that first breakthrough is key.
Something I'd say in ways of encouragment, is ask questions here. Lots of folks are very helpful..and some try to be helpful and never once give helpful answers..you'll need to figure that out....One thing...Subject lines:
Instead of "How is this achieved?" try "How is this achieved: Lighting in promo images".... it can attact knowledgble folks, rather than bored forum browsers :D
Do not forget, I believe that post-work that enhances the images in the Daz Store is allowed so there is a chance that there have been some enhancments to the renders.
As for Olympia's promos, I believe they are using dome and scene lighting method with several lights placed in the scene and an env image.
Thanks everyone. For the record I do know a reasonable amount of the theory behind how to set up lighting (eg 3-point lighting, softboxes, tone mapping etc) but my problem is always when I try to put it into practice. I don't know whether I just have no real artistic talent to tap into (in which case I probably shouldn't be wasting my time on this) or if its just that I don't know enough tricks of the trade yet, but having a reasonable grasp of the theory to me only seems to be half the battle. It would be so helpful to actually see how some of these scenes were setup step-by-step so that we could learn directly from following those steps but Daz always seems to want to hide that information from us. What I can't understand is why? Surely keeping most their customers fumbling around in the dark all the time is only harming their sales?
It feels like going to an art class, being given all the paint, brushes, canvasses etc you need and then the teacher walks out of the room saying "Good luck!" lol.
Anyway, I'm sure you're all right. I'm sure that it is a mixture of dome lighting through the windows, wall mesh lights and off-camera spotlights and softboxes but hell if I can work out how its all coming together. I'm trying to create a very similar scene myself using all of those components but I can't get it looking anywhere near that.
Even just 1 image showing where all of the lights are placed and what type they are would be so helpful.
Yes - this is what bothers me the most. How do we even know that these images haven't just been completely photoshopped out of all recognition? Perhaps this isn't even achievable in DS and I'm just flogging myself senseless over some unachievable standard that simply can't be attained using just DS alone. It'd be nice to know one way or the other.
Oh, my OTHER big tip: Sharpen tool.
I use it in pretty much every image, with GIMP. Sharpen 40-60, depending. It REALLY makes a huge difference in spiffing up an image.
Postwork is where you start to lose me Will
. I don't really know anything about it as I always try to do everything in DS. What does Sharpen do?
Thats a very generous offer mal3Imagery and I feel a bit guilty about saying "yes please" due to the work involved for you.... but if you're happy to do it, then that would be extremely helpful, thank you.
Just to warn you that I am off to bed now though cos its late here, so if you don't see an immediate reply thats why.
Thanks Scavenger. I think I know the tutorial you mean, but it was 3DL wasn't it?
Taken under advisement - thanks
They cant be enhanced that much. The enhancements must not misrepresent the product being sold so I think great deal of getting the image look right truly is setting up your lighting inside DS.
tl: It's actually very simple, honestly. In GIMP, you hit 'enhance > Sharpen' and select a value of somewhere between 40 and 60 (too much and it starts looking noisy/bad). In GIMP, you get a preview so you can see what is going on.
It, well, sharpens images.
(example incoming)
My guess is a big factor is time... Whatever the method it probably took a long time to finish (or a render farm).
As for the methodology, my educated guess would be a soft hdr plus the lights in the scenery you can see and a spot light to highlight the figure, I would also probably remove parts of the scenery that can't be seen, that way there's no worry about blocking light>faster render
I really like them too, so I'll do some tests later.
I
I know exactly what you mean tl155180. I go merrily along, creating art, and most times thinking "hmm I'm quite proud of this one" and then I see something by someone else and just die inside and wonder why the heck I'm fooling myself into doing this.
If it helps any, remember that the vast majority of DAZ Original promo art is done by DAZ's in-house artists, who are incredible artists.
One of those in-house artists is Devon Oreschnick and he happens to have a Facebook page. Where he posts the promo art he has done, and talks about it. He also is a very patient kind person who also posts video tuts of various tips and tricks in DAZ that he generously shares with anyone who wants to learn a bit more.
His video on hair in 3delight has improved my hair in 3delights renders a thousand fold. Some of his personal art pieces in the DAZ gallery also has scene files you can download - obviously you need everything in the scene for it to work, but you can pick apart his lighting etc and learn a few things. I'm pretty sure Devon runs screaming when he sees a post/message from me cos I am always asking stuff like "HOW did you get the grass to look that awesome in that picture?" LOL. But he's very patient and a sweetie. Check out his facebook page and have a look at some of the vids.
https://www.facebook.com/OreschnickDesignes/?fref=ts
Thanks for starting this thread, if it continues to build with helpful info it would be a great resource!
Much appreciation to everyone who has already posted useful tips!
Oh, I forgot to link the sharpen image example. I think I got up to 60 or 70, which is unusual. (Again, too high and it looks like crud)
First image is raw, second Sharpen tool.
What about all these packages you can buy from DAZ that set up the lighting for your for both indoor portraits and outdoor environments? There seems to be a lot of them and are designed as instant lighting, or at least it appears they are? There are so many different kinds and I get confused about which one to pick to try out.
Do these lighting packages solve the problem stated by the original poster of this discussion? I would love to be able to put my objects in a scene, dressed, with props, posed with suitable ground and background and then just bring up one of these lighting packages in Content Manager and choose my lighting, and viola! a beautifully balanced, professionally looking scene either indoors with interesting lighting or outdoors with puffy clouds, blue sky, and lots of detail -- like the ones I see in the DAZ ads.
Am I dreaming?
I have seen ads for Sky Domes and other kinds of lighting but do not have a clue what they are and how their approaches are different. What I have done in the past is imported DAZ figures and objects into Bryce because it provides a simple interface. You just choose an external environment and your objects are realistically lighted in an outdoor scene. But you have little control over the DAZ objects in the scene. I want to be able to do the same thing WITHIN DAZ studio.
Also, Dreamlight seems to have lighting packages, but for some reason I cannot seem to understand how they are supposed to work.
But the bottomline for me is that when I read that people who have been working with DAZ Studio for years and have some knowledge and experience still have the same frustration of not being able to come close to duplicating the results in the ads, it is a source of discouragement and makes me think that without a mentor/guru to help you, you will not be able to duplicate their results.
I sent a questiong to DAZ technical support asking them how they rendered the Prey vs. Predator bundle ads and the response I got was that they were done by a third party and there was not information on how they were done. With all the expertise at DAZ, it seems scandalous that they are selling products and not providing the ability to duplicate the results in their own ads. I think that if enough of us who are feeling the same way get together, we could pressure DAZ to take a bunch of ads, provide a scene file, and a tutorial on how they are constructed and rendered and how long it takes for the render using various render engines.
If anyone is interested adding their names to a list of users who want DAZ to do this, send me an email at [email protected]. I personally feel like DAZ uses a carrot on a stick to present the idea that anyone can create the results they show in the ads. If they really stand behind their products, the results should be achievable by anyone with some basic experience with DAZ Studio.
I believe that one thing that should be required if a vendor or DAZ is selling a product is to provide a step-by-step description of how the ads were produced so a person with basic experience can reproduce the scene if they have all the components. Also, there should be a requirement that no postwork be done.
As far as I can know, I do think the store promos have a 'no postwork' rule...however I think basics like sharpen, contrast/brightness are allowed. (That is what i can remember being told) Postwork to the extent of filters or hand painting etc are more of hte 'artistic' promo kind.
I have to respectfully disagree that a vendor or daz should be required to provide a step by step of how a promo for the store was done. It's an ad for a product - and like most ads adn commercials it kinda shows what CAN be done rather than 'you will have exactly the same results'. Many people do their own lighting setups, many vendors often include a character light set up or prop/environment light set up in their products, there are gazillions of lighting products available for us to play with. Lighting is up to us. Like I mentioned before, the daz inhouse artists are professionals, led by a professional and their promo work is of a professional standard because their entire job is to SELL a product. There are many many products out there where the store promos are not particularly good - they are usually the products I skip by until I see it used by another artist in an artistic way and think "how on earth did I miss that?". Not all store promos are fabulous - some are lower in quality. It depends on the artist - whether that is the vendor themselves or a third party.
Here is a yeild to Sickleyield's tutorial for her promos. Very informative!
Thank you for posting this.
It is interesting that some vendors do understand how difficult it can be to reproduce the overall effect that attracts us to their ads and want to help. If some vendors are willing to do it, it does not seem unreasonable that others should be required to do it also. I would guess that a majority of DAZ Studio users have the same complaint we are talking about here. And think about how much better the rest of us would be if we had this extra help. I am guessing it would help to sell products because buyers would not hesitate to buy knowing that they could produce the same results as in the ads. I also think it would lessen the learning curve dramatically.
There is a lot you can do in the rendering, but you can also do a lot afterward. The image shows my original render in the center. The one on the left is my changes in Photoshop using levels, unsharp, a few other things. I have been learning about Camera Raw in Photoshop. While it's meant to take advantage of the large range of information in a raw shot, it will still work with other formats including jpg. You would want to work with a large image and lit as well as possible. The image at the right is after working in Camera Raw.
You are in a public store ... there are a crowd of people all around ... you pose a question and somebody might answer it ... but hundreds will just "lurk" in the shadows of the boards ... and comments like this seldom help draw out the shy ones to bother replying to questions even though they very well might have full knowledge of "simply because". Bored or not, forum browsers are WELCOME to pitch into forum discussions. If there be anybody whose answers you truly never care to read, quietly use the ignore button, that's what it is there for.
Here is the best I have on a "how is the light set up for this promo" sort of thing. All of the light sets shown in the promos are full presets, and the photographer shown in a few of them shows the camera position. That can give you an idea on where the lights are placed releative to the subject.
http://www.daz3d.com/idg-portrait-studio
All of the promos in mine and InaneGlory's light sets are done using the full presets in the packs so they are load and go, or "point and shoot."
Found it.
And.....? :)
For use in 3Delight: