question about bump map and normal map

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  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 172
    edited March 4

    Ok, thank you very much! laughSo, to be sure to understand well, you recommand a DS plane imported to Blender and re-imported again to DS after creating the Blender material, is it that? Not to use the "same" DS plane to test the maps, but the re-imported one? Or maybe directly a Blender plane imported to DS?

    By the way, is there a number of polygons suitable for the plane?  Would an important number of polygons improve the quality of the final shader?

    Post edited by yuyu.atem on
  • crosswindcrosswind Posts: 5,112
    edited March 4

    yuyu.atem said:

    Ok, thank you very much! laughSo, to be sure to understand well, you recommand a DS plane imported to Blender and re-imported again to DS after creating the Blender material, is it that? Not to use the "same" DS plane to test the maps, but the re-imported one? Or maybe directly a Blender plane imported to DS?

    By the way, is there a number of polygons suitable for the plane?  Would an important number of polygons improve the quality of the final shader?

    You create a plane in DS, export to OBJ and import it to Blender. After creating the procedural shader and baking the texture map, you just need to assign the texture map to the plane surface in DS... no need to re-import OBJ file.

    As for the number of divisions / polycounts, it's not a big deal, more number won't improve quality of shader result as well as texture map if you make tileable ones. If you make a draping plane in DS, more number of divisions will just bring you good draping result with dForce. I made it with 80 division in this test case.

    I attached DS scene file, Blender file as well as the baked normal map in a ZIP file, you may check and test. - https://mega.nz/file/ef4GGTgT#OOXS5uVTvpomR_8SesNsVPuwp2icl-Ksbr7uKx4VDsU

    Post edited by crosswind on
  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 172

    Hi! Thank you verry much, I will see it! And sorry, I didn't answered earlier because I was very buisy at the university (2 very buisy weeks...)

    I also tried to create my maps from a DS plane imported into Blender; it works quite better, now! laugh I also foud a way to create a bump map from my Blender material, in fact, it was quite simple:

         

    So, what I did is:

    - create the Blender materail on the cloth sample I showed in my preview posts.

    - load a plane in DS and exported it with the DazToBlender bridge.

    - "replace" in Blender the cloth sample by the plane (so, the Blender material was automatically applied to the plane without to change any settings): I just used the DazToBlender add-on in Blender, and the cloth was autamatically replaced by the plane.

    - bake a noramal map and a bump map of the Blender material from the plane.

    - make the maps timable by using Gimp.

    - apply the maps to the cloth in DS.

    And this is what I obtain laugh:

    I tried different settings:

    Depending on the settings, it seems still a bit plastic, but I guess it can be improved by testing several settings... 

    I also tried what I obtain with only the normal map, without the bump map:

    It quite interesting to compare the difference between with and without the bump map! wink

    However, when I try to apply the maps to the plane in DS, I can't see any effect:

    Is it normal my plane looks like that, after appliyng both the normal and the bump map?

    Thank you in advance! laugh

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,258

    yuyu.atem said:

    So, what I did is:

    - create the Blender materail on the cloth sample I showed in my preview posts.

    - load a plane in DS and exported it with the DazToBlender bridge.

    You do realise you can export obj from Daz and import obj into Blender (no bridge required)?

    - "replace" in Blender the cloth sample by the plane (so, the Blender material was automatically applied to the plane without to change any settings): I just used the DazToBlender add-on in Blender, and the cloth was autamatically replaced by the plane.

    "Replace?"

    You can just import the plane as obj, and then in the Materials tab in Blender, you can assign any existing material to the plane.

    the plane doesnt need to be draped over a sphere or anything complicated, you just need to apply the material to it. The plane is only being used to bake the material.It doesnt matter what else you have in the scene.

    - bake a noramal map and a bump map of the Blender material from the plane.

    Choosing the UV rotation of 41.2 degrees seems odd, because now the pattern is at an angle.

    - apply the maps to the cloth in DS.

    Why do you keep insisting on using that object with the messed up UV? Why introduce another variable into the equation...In science when you are experimenting, you dont just add 50 different variables and then try to figure out what each one is doing.

    Is it normal my plane looks like that, after appliyng both the normal and the bump map?


    Is it just the lighting? Youre the one in daz. Youre the one controlling the lighting conditions by rotating, transforming the light. You have the ability to drape the plane over a sphere to add more folds/shape to the plane, and compare if that makes it look similar to what you expect. These are all testable hypotheses that you could work through using basic trial and error.

    I also tried what I obtain with only the normal map, without the bump map

    You showed how you baked a bump map and showed the bump map, but never explained how you baked a normal map, nor showed the normal map, so how would we be able to deduce if the normal map may be wrong?

  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 172

    lilweep said:

    You do realise you can export obj from Daz and import obj into Blender (no bridge required)?

    I heard to export DS objects as obj format and import them into Blender could genarate some issues, ad it was suitable to use the DazToBlender bridge. Is it a problem to use it?

    "Replace?"

    You can just import the plane as obj, and then in the Materials tab in Blender, you can assign any existing material to the plane.

    the plane doesnt need to be draped over a sphere or anything complicated, you just need to apply the material to it. The plane is only being used to bake the material.It doesnt matter what else you have in the scene.

    I was automatically replaced by the DazToBlender bridge.

    Choosing the UV rotation of 41.2 degrees seems odd, because now the pattern is at an angle.

    Ok, I did it because it wa did in the tutorial I wached, I will try without it.

    Why do you keep insisting on using that object with the messed up UV? Why introduce another variable into the equation...In science when you are experimenting, you dont just add 50 different variables and then try to figure out what each one is doing.

    Since I couldn't see any effect by applying the maps on the plane, I applied them on the cloth.


    Is it just the lighting? Youre the one in daz. Youre the one controlling the lighting conditions by rotating, transforming the light. You have the ability to drape the plane over a sphere to add more folds/shape to the plane, and compare if that makes it look similar to what you expect. These are all testable hypotheses that you could work through using basic trial and error.

    Ok, I will try it.

    You showed how you baked a bump map and showed the bump map, but never explained how you baked a normal map, nor showed the normal map, so how would we be able to deduce if the normal map may be wrong?

    It's on my post of the 3rd march.

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,258

    yuyu.atem said:

    It's on my post of the 3rd march.

    Thats a different map. 

    Crosswind's map looks good, your one (the old one) you posted looks terrible. Have you inspected your current one to see what the map actually looks like?

  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 172

    Thank you very much for your answer! laughHere is my normal map:

        

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,258

    The details look very weak on that map. Usually normal maps are not that pale.

    I think you're supposed to set color space to non-color when baking any non-base color map, not sRGB

    Did you try using closer to crosswind's settings (i.e., bump up the strength?).  If seeing a weak effect, increasing strength seems logical.

  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 172

    lilweep said:

    I think you're supposed to set color space to non-color when baking any non-base color map, not sRGB

    Hi! Thank you very much for your answer! Indeed, it looks better with the non-color!

    It's just a screenshot and wee need to zoom to see the details, but here is what I obtain when I use it:

    For the plane, there are both the normal and the bump maps. For the cloth, there is only the normal map.

    Did you try using closer to crosswind's settings (i.e., bump up the strength?).  If seeing a weak effect, increasing strength seems logical.

    No, I didn't try yet because I wanted to try to success with exactly the tutorial's settings, first.

     

    I have another question, about the color: I tried to recreate the same color than the one I used in Blender, but I obtain somethong strange when I try. Here is the color in Blender:

        

    And here are the settings I used in DS:

         

    I used the RGB reference from Blender on the glossy color because the default Fabric - Silk - Blue uses the glossy color, but the material becomes completly white at the render. It doesn't become white when I use the RGB reference on the base color. So, I would like an advice about that. Is it better to use the base color to "control" the color of a shader, even if the default shader uses the glossy color? Is there a way to recreate my Blender color with the glossy color settings?

     

    I have also a question about the top coat color. I saw that it has a big influence when I change its settings, but I'm not sure to understand how it works. What is exactly the top coat color?

     

    Thank you in advance for your answer!

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,258

    yuyu.atem said:

    Why would you make the details so small like that...now anyone using it cannot set the size they want because it is already so small. 

  • crosswindcrosswind Posts: 5,112
    edited March 11

    There's a pretty low value on Backscattering Roughness, try increasing the value to avoid white render.

    There's a concept of Layers with Iray Uber Shader, so Top Coat Weight Layer, as it's described, is on the top of Base Color and Metallic Flakes layers, e.g. the coating on the most top of car paint. You can define this layer as per the case you have to make subtle change on the very top.

    Check the general concepts of Iray Uber shader in here: - http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/referenceguide/interface/panes/surfaces/shaders/iray_uber_shader/shader_general_concepts/start

    Like the attached screenshot, the reflection of that apple core is just on the layer of Top Coat rather than any other layers.

    SNAG-2024-3-12-0013.png
    1470 x 1302 - 1M
    Post edited by crosswind on
  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 172

    lilweep said:

    Why would you make the details so small like that...now anyone using it cannot set the size they want because it is already so small. 

    I created a 4096*4096 image for the bake, and I obtaned that. I didn't make details so small at purpose... crying

    crosswind said:

    There's a pretty low value on Backscattering Roughness, try increasing the value to avoid white render.

    There's a concept of Layers with Iray Uber Shader, so Top Coat Weight Layer, as it's described, is on the top of Base Color and Metallic Flakes layers, e.g. the coating on the most top of car paint. You can define this layer as per the case you have to make subtle change on the very top.

    Check the general concepts of Iray Uber shader in here: - http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/referenceguide/interface/panes/surfaces/shaders/iray_uber_shader/shader_general_concepts/start

    Like the attached screenshot, the reflection of that apple core is just on the layer of Top Coat rather than any other layers.

    Thank you very much! I will look at it! laugh

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,258

    yuyu.atem said:

    lilweep said:

    Why would you make the details so small like that...now anyone using it cannot set the size they want because it is already so small. 

    I created a 4096*4096 image for the bake, and I obtaned that. I didn't make details so small at purpose... crying

    Whatever the plane looks like in Blender is what gets baked...

    crosswind said:

    There's a pretty low value on Backscattering Roughness, try increasing the value to avoid white render.

    There's a concept of Layers with Iray Uber Shader, so Top Coat Weight Layer, as it's described, is on the top of Base Color and Metallic Flakes layers, e.g. the coating on the most top of car paint. You can define this layer as per the case you have to make subtle change on the very top.

    Check the general concepts of Iray Uber shader in here: - http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/referenceguide/interface/panes/surfaces/shaders/iray_uber_shader/shader_general_concepts/start

    Like the attached screenshot, the reflection of that apple core is just on the layer of Top Coat rather than any other layers.

    Thank you very much! I will look at it! laugh

     I alluded to this before, but when testing things, it would be better to only change one variable at time.  So if testing a normal map, test on a fresh shader - not with 100 other confounding variables of an existing shader preset already in the mix.

  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 172

    Thank you very much! laugh 

    lilweep said:

    Whatever the plane looks like in Blender is what gets baked...

    In this case, how is it possible I obtain something so small on the normal map, whereas I used the same magic texture node presets to the normal and the bump map, and it's not so small on the bump map?

     I alluded to this before, but when testing things, it would be better to only change one variable at time.  So if testing a normal map, test on a fresh shader - not with 100 other confounding variables of an existing shader preset already in the mix.

    Ok, I will try, thank yhou very much!

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,258

    yuyu.atem said:

    Thank you very much! laugh 

    lilweep said:

    Whatever the plane looks like in Blender is what gets baked...

    In this case, how is it possible I obtain something so small on the normal map, whereas I used the same magic texture node presets to the normal and the bump map, and it's not so small on the bump map?

    "magic texture node presets" are irrelevant. 

    Ultimately what matters is what looks like on the plane as that is what will get baked to the plane's UV, so you should be using your eyes to gauge what the result will be, not referring to some specific abstract number (which doesnt really mean anything).  This is the whole point of using a plane to bake out the shader no?  What you see is what you get.

  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 172

    Ah, ok, tnak you very much! Well, I used these presets because it was shown in the tutorial. Since I want to create a silk fabric, I thought it was relevant to have so  small details... Do you mean I should create a fabric with bigger details on Blender, and make the details "smaller" on DSD by using the tiles presets?

    Thank you in advance for your help!

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,258

    yuyu.atem said:

    Do you mean I should create a fabric with bigger details on Blender, and make the details "smaller" on DSD by using the tiles presets?

    Yes exactly 

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