question about bump map and normal map

Hello,

I am training to create fabric shader presets, and I wached this tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9TfG1hn7v8, in which I can see he uses both a bump map and a normal map. So, I have two questions about that :

- what is the difference between a noral map and a bump map?

- what's the equivalent to the bump map in Blender? I mean, when I want to bake a material in Blender, I have choise between several bake type, including "normal", but not "bump"... So, maybe I am wrong, but I suppose to bake with the "normal" bake type in Blender would create a normal map; but what would be the bake type to create a bump map?

 

 

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Comments

  • A bump map, like a displacement map, uses the shade of grey of the map to specify the height of the mesh at that point (black being equivalent to the minimum value and white the maximum, as set in the material). In Blender it might be called a height map. At render time a bump map's relative height data across the surface is used to calculate the direction in which the surface would be facing, and that is in effect a new normal map which is then combinaed with any existing normal map. Bumps are more human-readable (the lighter the area the higher) but they require more work, and may be unable to capture some nuances that a normal map baked from actual high-resolution mesh details may be able to convey.

  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 169

    Thank you very much! I would like to be able to convert into a DS materials, Blender materials "derivated" from this tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=zudN2dz-AeY, so something like that :

    Do you think it would be possible to bake it into both a bump map and a normal map so as to create something like the tutorial in my first message (http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9TfG1hn7v8)?

    Or perhaps there would be a better way? I also thought about to use the Shader Mixer, but I don't know it very well yet, and I don't know what would be the DS equivalent nodes...

    Thank you in advance for your advice!

  • jjoynerjjoyner Posts: 506

    Materialize is a free product that I discovered recently elsewhere in the forums.  It allows you to create materials from images by starting with an image in its Diffuse slot and then creating a variety of maps - height (bump), normal, and more.  The Materialize web site (Bounding Box Software - Materialize) has three YouTube tutorial videos about how to use it.  It may be helpful to you.

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,253

    yuyu.atem said:

    Thank you very much! I would like to be able to convert into a DS materials, Blender materials "derivated" from this tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=zudN2dz-AeY, so something like that :

    Do you think it would be possible to bake it into both a bump map and a normal map so as to create something like the tutorial in my first message (http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9TfG1hn7v8)?

    Or perhaps there would be a better way? I also thought about to use the Shader Mixer, but I don't know it very well yet, and I don't know what would be the DS equivalent nodes...

    Thank you in advance for your advice!

    your question is simply how to bake out a procedural map from Blender. It's not really a daz studio question. It's a Blender question. Just google "how to bake out maps from Blender Shader Editor"

    Your output will be an image. You can then plug this into Daz Studio in the Surfaces tab.

    As others have said, you can derive a fake normal map from a bump map using materialize, if you must.

    As to your question about using Shader Mixer, you dont need to use that, certainly not for doing something basic like plugging in a map. What problem do you think you would be trying to solve by using Shader Mixer? It's much more complicated than Blender's Shader Editor, and as far as i know doesnt have a Magic Texture Node equivalent, so you wouldn't be able to procedurally generate the same node setup as in Blender anyway.

  • Baking a single map would not be useful as it would bake in one set of lighting. Baking down to the different map types, however, probably would - I assume Blender can do both (and you may have meant the latter anyway).

  • NinefoldNinefold Posts: 256

    You don't have to bake lighting when you bake a single map in Blender. Whether you bake lighting is one of several toggles in the influence section of the bake submenu of the render menu. Lilweep is correct that the best thing to do here is google "blender bake tutorial" or similar and just watch any of the 300 videos that comes up. Baking metallicity maps in Blender is a little finicky.

  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 169

    Thank you very much for your answers! laugh What I wonder about Blender's bake is what would be the bake type and its settings to create a DS Bump map, since "bump" is not a bake type in Blender. So, it's a bit both a Blender question and a DS question, since I'm not sure a Blender user that wouldn't know anything about DS would know to answer to "how bake a Blender material so as to create a DS bump map?" (I asked something like that in a Blender forrum, but nobody could answer...)wink

    So, maybe  I am wrong, but I guess if I bake my material with the "normal" bake type, I will obtain just a normal map, but I can't figure out what would be the bake settings to create a bump map usable in DS...

    Thank you in advance for your help...

  • You don't have to havea  bump map, and if you are coming from a single source you probably don't need one. If you wanted to sepaarte two aspects of the material's relief then it might be best handled by having a bump and a normal, but if you aren't needing to mix and match then that isn't an issue.

  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 169

    Richard Haseltine said:

    You don't have to havea  bump map, and if you are coming from a single source you probably don't need one. If you wanted to sepaarte two aspects of the material's relief then it might be best handled by having a bump and a normal, but if you aren't needing to mix and match then that isn't an issue.

    Thank you very much ! laugh So, you mean in the case of the Blender material I showed you, a normal map should be enough?

  • yuyu.atem said:

    Richard Haseltine said:

    You don't have to havea  bump map, and if you are coming from a single source you probably don't need one. If you wanted to sepaarte two aspects of the material's relief then it might be best handled by having a bump and a normal, but if you aren't needing to mix and match then that isn't an issue.

    Thank you very much ! laugh So, you mean in the case of the Blender material I showed you, a normal map should be enough?

    I should think so, at worst you might need more maps for different versions - but if you want only the one version then even that is not an issue.

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,253

    yuyu.atem said:

    Thank you very much for your answers! laugh What I wonder about Blender's bake is what would be the bake type and its settings to create a DS Bump map, since "bump" is not a bake type in Blender. So, it's a bit both a Blender question and a DS question, since I'm not sure a Blender user that wouldn't know anything about DS would know to answer to "how bake a Blender material so as to create a DS bump map?" (I asked something like that in a Blender forrum, but nobody could answer...)wink

    So, maybe  I am wrong, but I guess if I bake my material with the "normal" bake type, I will obtain just a normal map, but I can't figure out what would be the bake settings to create a bump map usable in DS...

    Thank you in advance for your help...

    height map is same thing 

  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 169

    Thank you very much!laugh 

    Richard Haseltine said:

    yuyu.atem said:

    Richard Haseltine said:

    You don't have to havea  bump map, and if you are coming from a single source you probably don't need one. If you wanted to sepaarte two aspects of the material's relief then it might be best handled by having a bump and a normal, but if you aren't needing to mix and match then that isn't an issue.

    Thank you very much ! laugh So, you mean in the case of the Blender material I showed you, a normal map should be enough?

    I should think so, at worst you might need more maps for different versions - but if you want only the one version then even that is not an issue.

    I tested the normal map I created from the Blender material, and here is the comparison:

    Here, the Blender material:

    And here, the DS render after importing the Blender normal map I created (color is note the same because I didn't copy-paste the RGB reference):

    I have the impression the DS material has less details than the Blender one... I started from the DS silk default material, and I just added the normal map and changed the color, but it looks more like plastic than silk, so, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to create a bump map to improve the quality and details...

    Or maybe it would exist another way to improve that?

    Thank you in advance for your advice!

  • How are their tilings set? How are the scenes being lit?

  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 169
    edited March 1

    About the light, I used the DS default lamp: I didn't add or chage lamp. About the tilings, do you mean their mesh? (sorry, I don't know this word...)

    Post edited by yuyu.atem on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 97,395

    In the surfaces pane you can set how many times the image is repeated arross the surface - the tiling. It looks to me, unless it's an artefact, as if the surface in Blender is repeated many times, at a smaller scale, while the one in DS has only a single instance of the pattern stretched across the model.

    The default lighting in DS, if you mean the ruins HDR, ir pretty blurry and flat - that is not going to do a good job of picking up fine detail in relief (normals simulate relief).

  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 169

    Thank you very much! 

    Richard Haseltine said:

    In the surfaces pane you can set how many times the image is repeated arross the surface - the tiling. It looks to me, unless it's an artefact, as if the surface in Blender is repeated many times, at a smaller scale, while the one in DS has only a single instance of the pattern stretched across the model.

     

    Do you mean the "Horizontal Tiles" ad the "Vertical Tiles"? They are both setted to 1. Here is what I obtain when I set it to 5 :

    I have thi impression in decrease the influence of the normal map...

    The default lighting in DS, if you mean the ruins HDR, ir pretty blurry and flat - that is not going to do a good job of picking up fine detail in relief (normals simulate relief).

    Ok, is there a specific lamp I sould use to improve the normal map details?

    Thank you in advance!

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 97,395

    Try using a sharper, more contrasty light source - or even just a local light (set environment Mode to Scene Only and adjust the Tone Mapping to compensate) shinging across the surface. The sharper and more distinct the shadows the easier it will be to see the detail.

  • crosswindcrosswind Posts: 4,832
    edited March 2

    It seems that the material was made with no UV unwrapped, so you have to add more tiling values. As for getting a good result with Uber Shader in DS, you also need to well configure the shader properties on the surface with this Normal material, then default HDR will also do for rendering with it...

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  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 169

    Thank you very much! 

    crosswind said:

    It seems that the material was made with no UV unwrapped, so you have to add more tiling values.

    In fact, there is an UV unwrapped. More precisely, I used the object avialable here: https://ko-fi.com/s/31b36ee629.

    I loaded it in DS,and I exported it to Blender by using the DazToBlender bridge. Then, I discovered it's UV looked strange, it wasn't centered to the square:

    So, I used the "G" and "S" keys so as to fit it and make it correctly centered. Then, I baked the normal map... I don't know if it can explain the effect I obtain here...

    As for getting a good result with Uber Shader in DS, you also need to well configure the shader properties on the surface with this Normal material, then default HDR will also do for rendering with it...

    So, you mean I should test several settings until to find the best ones for the normal map I'm using, is it that?

    Thank you in advance!

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,253

    im really surprised this simple task is taking so long.  You know you can actually furnish this thread with all the requisite details upfront instead of slowly drip feeding them piecemeal one at a time.

    • What does the normal map you baked actually look like?
    • What do your surface settings look like in Daz
    • What does your UV map look like in Daz (did you actually export with the corrected UV or are you still using the one with the wrong UV)
    • What does it look like rendered in Daz with actually similar lighting to the lighting in Blender? What does it look like when varying the lighting? Trial and error y'all...
  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 169

    lilweep said:

    im really surprised this simple task is taking so long.  You know you can actually furnish this thread with all the requisite details upfront instead of slowly drip feeding them piecemeal one at a time.

    Oh yeah, indeed! I didn't realize at the biggining but I should have start like that!

    Here is the entire material I used to create the normal bake :

    • What does the normal map you baked actually look like?

    Here is the normal map I obtained form the Blender bake:

    • What do your surface settings look like in Daz

    I did several tries ; here are the last settings I'm using (I tried to inspire me from the crosswind's settings) :

       

    • What does your UV map look like in Daz (did you actually export with the corrected UV or are you still using the one with the wrong UV)

    In DS, I didn't change the UV map: since the object was originally created for DS, I thought the UV was already right, and I thought the wrong UV in Blender would come from the importation... Maybe I was wrong!

    However, I never did UV unwrapping in DS yet, so I don't know how to see the UV map. Could you tell me where I can see what the UV likes, please?

    • What does it look like rendered in Daz with actually similar lighting to the lighting in Blender? What does it look like when varying the lighting? Trial and error y'all...

    Sorry, I don't know to control well the DS light yet, I don't know how to create the same light as in Blender...

    Is there a way to load a file on the forum? Maybe it would be easier if I give you the actual Blender and DS files?

    Thank you in advance for your help!

  • crosswindcrosswind Posts: 4,832
    edited March 3

    My friend ~ 1st, pls re-unwrap the cloth, as per screenshot 1. Then bake and save a 4096x Normal map, as per screenshot 2. Export cloth to OBJ and import it into DS. Assign the Normal map and tweak the properties on its surface. You'll get the correct result, as per screenshot 3. Check screenshot 4 and 5 to get UV layout in DS.

    If you need blend and DUF files, pls PM me.

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  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,253
    edited March 3

    Reminder me why y'all using that cloth to make the shader. Seems totally nonsensical 

    Just use a plane primitive where UV occupies whole UV square. Seems most sensible way to make a shader.

    Youre not texturing a prop. Youre making a shader that is supposed to work on any surface.

    Post edited by lilweep on
  • crosswindcrosswind Posts: 4,832

    That's right. OP, you need to make sure what you want first of all. If you use such a "cloth prop" with UV unwrapping, you're making texture maps for it. If you want to make a shader preset for being repetitively used in DS, you just need a simple plane to make tileable texture maps. They're different things.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 97,395

    One reason to use something other than a plain plane is to get soem variation of light over the surface - I would use a plane draped ove another primitive with dForce, as - I think - Crosswind does.

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,253
    Draping a UV mapped primitive is fine, but one cannot then UV unwrap it or UV project it the way shown above (unless texturing a prop, where UV arrangement is not totally important since it doesnt have to function as a tileable map). For the purpose of making a shader, the UV should take up the whole UV square, perfectly fitted to the whole square. Then of course one can drape or morph however you want. (Side note: one thing that is not addressed in the methodology is avoiding seams when tiling. Probably there are blender plugins for this if not already part of blender.) OP should probably just watch a tutorial on making/exporting tileable textures for other software instead of one for making procedural shaders in blender for blender.
  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,253
    I didnt watch this but a video like this which alleges to show process of making a seamless texture would make more sense as reference than a shader creation video:
  • crosswindcrosswind Posts: 4,832

    Yes, that's right. I did exactly the same way as Richard mentioned in the previous post with that dark metallic raspberry shader... made a plane drape on a sphere with dForce. You just simply export the objects to OBJ and import it into Blender, don't go for UV Unwrap of course.

    And Ryan's channel is great as lilweep posted. I've shared it with you in another thread of How to create a pattern.... You just follow the above tutorial to make the tex. maps tileable. Pretty simple.

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  • yuyu.atemyuyu.atem Posts: 169

    Thank you very much, everyone! laugh I used this object because it was used in this tutoriel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9TfG1hn7v8, but if I understand well, to create a shader preset, I should better use a plane, right? I will try it.

    I have a question about to make the image tilable, as we can see in this video: https://youtu.be/VAjGtE678o0

    Indeed, I can see it's made tilable by using Gimp, but when I create a new image in the image texture node in Blender, there is a option "Tiled". So I wonder, can this option have the same effect as to make the image tilable in Gimp?

    Thank you in advance!

  • crosswindcrosswind Posts: 4,832

    Yes, that's right. Just go ahead with using a primitive plane. BTW, the UV of that cloth prop is not correct. No need to use it.

    That Tiled option is for UDIM tile, which is totally a different thing. Pls don't use it.

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