Carrara Bugged Me To Death...
bdproductions
Posts: 45
During my journey to the realms of adept CG artist, illustrator and animator, I remained faithful to Carrara believing that it could only get better. It would seem that somewhere over the last five versions of Carrara, its developers have become stuck, unable to make any major, groundbreaking advances (or upgrades to lacking features). It seems to me that DAZ is focusing more on DAZ Studio than Carrara. I wouldn't doubt that DAZ is looking to eventually phase Carrara out while exalting DAZ Studio as its premier, all-around go to solution. I have encountered so many bugs and annoyances that after ten years of faithfully using Carrara, I finally made an investment in 3d Max. It was after purchasing the LuxRenderer in July, and being unable to use the bloody thing, that I decided to make the 3D Max investment. I thought, what the hell! I'm creating my own content and busting my tail using a program that isn't even industry standard. I've been working on my movie and it's spin off mini-series, for the last five years. Performing the various duties assigned to many different departments, I have paitently developed evey aspect of the film. In spite of the elbow grease it takes to make things work effectively in Carrara, my original plan was to complete the movie with Carrara to show how powerful the program can be. I very rarely sought help from the forum and when I did, I was truly at my ropes end. The DAZ support team seems to be fairly nonexistent, and oftentimes curt and indifferent, and the resources and tutorials available for Carrara are laughable. Like most Carrara users, I mastered the program through trial and error.
I must say that the three thousand dollar 3D Max investment has been well worth it. Task that were difficult, or nearly impossible, with Carrara seem to fall into place in Max. With the technical skills and abilities I learned and developed while toiling my way through Carrara, I am able to make up for so much lost time (not to mention the plethora of tutorials available for 3D Max). However, due to yet another issue in Carrara, I cannot export any files from Carrarra into 3D Max without major distortion and disfiguration (FBX, DAE); thus having to begin the process of remodeling the thirty-four characters of my movie. Good thing is that, since 3D Max is industry standard, I can hire the help I need to stay on schedule. I must say that I found it both remarkable and ridiculous how smoothly exporting (FBX,DAE, OBJ) from DAZ Studio was; however, what good would that exporting do since I modeled my characters and props in Carrara. So after ten years of faithful allegiance to Carrara, and thousands of dollars invested in DAZ, I'm forced to finish up my last major project with Carrara before saying goodbye.
I hope I don't offend any cynical nerds, geeks or DAZ cheerleaders who may read this and decide to leave biting subtle remarks or comments. I've only said here what I've been wanting to say to DAZ, and to those few cynical nerds, geeks and DAZ cheerleaders who may have seemingly mistook me for a novice newbie with a flighty interest in all things CG, rather than a once- fiercely loyal-to Carrara user, small independent corp owner, who has studied hard with the intention of advancing professionally in the world of CG art, illustration and animation.
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Comments
I wish you well in your endeavors. If you get a chance, stop back in from time to time and point to some of your projects. Always thrilled to see the wonderful stuff folks do.
Thanks diamode, and will do.
Thousands of assets for Daz Studio, 3DS Max, Maya, & Poser 3D CONTENT MARKETPLACE
Says it all really
Yes I found exporting to other software DAZ studio is best for DAZ content
I would expect the Autodesk suite of programs to meet your profesional needs as it is after all the industry standard
it is also well beyond my budget as a hobbiest
It will be even worse, from 2016 you can no longer buy any autodesk software, they are going rental only.... so stay away from them.
Yay, perpetual license: no incentive for the vendor to ever do anything on the software ever again.
If DAZ had offered a subscription plan for Carrara, I would have taken it: at least then there'd be a decent hope of it getting worked on. As it is, we don't even get the most trivial bugs fixed in anything resembling a reasonable time because there's no money in it for the company.
I think bdproductions critique of Carrara is legitimate. However, it is my opinion that blaming Carrara for the failure of Lux to intergrate with Carrara is not the fault of Carrara but of Lux developers. I am not at the level of skill to use Lux, but I have been watching the teething problems of those that do on the forum, and have considered that by the time I will be in need of it, these problems will likely be resolved by Lux.
However, mikael-aronsson makes a timely point.."Things are a changing" in the digital world. Adobe has gone to a completly lease based use of its software, and others such as 3D Max are following. It is good for them- bad for us. Like a dope addict you will have to keep paying or else. Once you stop paying you will be unable to open any of the documents or work product which you have created. Already, there is a very active market for old adobe products on e-bay. Some Adobe applications are selling for more than they did originally. This market of old Adobe products, I suspect will intensify and become even larger.
As more "Industry Standard" 3D applications follow the Adobe imperitive, the climate for Carrara will improve economically. It is not just the money, for many of us, out there, it is also the principle, or unease of not being master of our own ship. I just hope that DAZ has put some thought into this. For like what is happening to many Adobe users who refuse to go along with their market model..and they are considerable in number, the same will happen with 3D Max, etc. Many will use the old versions for as long as they can, and then will look for alternatives. I think we are witnessing the creation of two worlds..those that live in the cloud and those that live on the ground.
Starboardtack
Fenric,
I also think that DAZ should make money on Carrara, but is'nt that why they charge for an update and how much it costs. Paying a fee ahead of time is no guantee that you will get the update you want or when. With the regular procedure, the incentive is for Daz to put enough in the update so that you are willing to buy it. Though at present we are so anxious for the overdue update, I think we would pay just to have the number changed to 9.
Starboardtack
I've been a software developer for 20 years, now.
Charging for an update doesn't work well overall, for a number of reasons. One of the biggest problems is actually best summed up in your statement:
> "With the regular procedure, the incentive is for Daz to put enough in the update so that you are willing to buy it."
But that means that the company ends up under tremendous pressure to include "compelling new features" for each update, and that in turn means that they *have* to prioritize bugs lower: so they end up adding more and more new features and fixing only the most egregious bugs - leaving us with the current state of software where the vast majority of software is a crash prone pile of defects.
Further, it is very hard to run a business (or unit) only making money once every couple years. Employees have to be paid, buildings take rent, electricity, sales and marketing efforts aren't free... But the reality is that you get a big spike when a new release is out, and that rapidly shrinks away to almost nothing. So what ends up happening is that the company has to lay people off in between (or worse: when an update doesn't sell as well as they hoped). They try to replace those experienced folks by hiring cheaper resources, or outsourcing, and soon enough they aren't effective anymore - you just can't replace the original designers and experts on a whim.
So in software circles, the "initial license and upgrade" business model is widely perceived as a failure these days, and that's why you're seeing so many companies going back to subscriptions (which is how software started out, after all): It has caused a great deal of stress and loss of talented people through constant rounds of layoffs, it has caused very poor software quality due to the pressure to produce features over stability, and frankly a properly planned subscription system (like Autodesk's) can be effective for the company while costing *less* that regular updates - granted at the significant price that you can't choose to not upgrade anymore.
And no, it's not all roses. The complaint about potentially losing access to your files is very real, and you're absolutely right: there is no guarantee that the company will follow through on their end of the bargain. In fact, let's look at the two you've mentioned...
I personally think Autodesk has done rather well: with their subscription costing slightly less than updating *every other* version. I had Maya (full) 2012, and I switched to subscription for Maya (LT) 2014 and I have been very happy. And the quality improvement has impressive: Maya 2012 was a crash-prone, bug-ridden piece of crap that was happy to corrupt files and bail out in the middle of working, and Hypershade was probably the most tempremental subsystem I have ever tried to work around. 2014 was better. 2015 was much better. 2016 is VERY much better. This is how it ought to work...
But on the other end is Adobe ... my goodness Adobe is a fail, with their annual subscription to Photoshop costing more than the upgrade price used to be. From what I read, their quality is not better, and may even be slightly worse now. So I have NOT moved to Adobe subscription, and have no plans to at this time.
So no, I agree that it is not a panacea. But it is going to be more and more of the software market...
Not the smallest reason being people like me who are *really* tired of being laid off working our way into the upper levels of management.
I have no argument with your comments. In your situation, the "industry standard" is probably the overriding factor. But in my situation as a hobbyist, I'm sticking with Carrara and my 2,000 or so 3D elements that work seamlessly. They are mostly Gen4 vintage and in Poser format, and I have little or no need to export anything, so its quite different from your situation. My interest is short story-type animations, just for fun, and I find that I can do almost everything I need in Carrara (the rest in Photoshop, Particle Illusion, maybe Vue complete ... maybe even Poser B-} ) And there are still new Poser format products coming out at various 3D websites at affordable prices (maybe $5 average on sale, I think well under many 3DMax products - I'm not a modeller). But again, I'm not criticizing your position, I'm just in a different situation. Good luck.
Thanx to the inspiration of Ton Roosenthal and his coterie of dedicated coders Blender is now a substantial rival to Maya AND 3DS Min. Do not go to Min or Maya. Try Blender. First it is absolutely FREE, second it is updated every 6 mos, and its updates reflect true advancements in its features. How you can plug away at Carrara and/or DAZ Studio Miss for thousangds of dollars and then throw your good money after bad into the Adesk milieu is only understandable if you fail to look into the plethora of less expensive ( Modo, Houdini, Lightwave, etc. ) and or free packages. I feel sorry for you, to have 50 some odd characters developed and textured in Carrara which can not be exported/imported into 3D$ Min must have been quite a shock. Good Luck to you with Min. Compare it to Blender some time.
Fenric,
You have given me an entirely new perspective on this, the view of the producer. It all makes sense...I can see the money flow problem, "feast and famine. Also the features verses reliability .. we get what we don't pay for , mechanism... The other factor is how many tricks can the software developers, such as Adobe Photoshop, pull out of the hat...After a while all they can offer is faster and more convenient. It is too bad that there is not a compromise business model that would allow customers to still retain control of the application so that their work product is not held for ransom, and the producer recieves adequate recompense.
I noticed that Houdini 3D offers a $200 subscription for Indies whose yearly gross revenues dos not exceed $100,000. I'm not sure how they monitor this, but atleast they are trying. I think Adobe will have to come up with a modified version of their lease arrangement for the average consumer. Their price structure makes sense for a business, but not for the "hobbyist" user... I would guess they are presently losing millions in this market sector. If all General Motors sold was Cadillacs they would be in trouble, but no they span the market with Chevrolets. I would not be surprised to see Adobe offer a multi-tiered lease system in the near future. It might be offered on speed..A fast PS costs X dollars/ Mo. whille the slower,......Y dollars per Mo. Since it is on the cloud it would be easy for Adobe to control the speed.
As far as Carrara goes, your right, it is the money. If DAZ was making big bucks with Carrara we would not be expecting version 9 but version 15 or 16. Lets hope they also find a method to make money from Carrara.
Starboardtack
Adobe has a plan for photographers that includes photoshop and lightroom for 9.99 a month. My Wife has the bigger package because she uses indesign, but for me to play and such being in a different useage its not bad.
Krita seems interesting geared toward painting and I know some swear by MangaStudio 5 /. Clipstudio for painting find it better. Krita is doing crowd funding
Welcome to DAZand carrara!
As far as a compromise goes, there are some packages that are phiolsophically more like an initial license with a built-in maintenance plan. Stop paying? Fine: you can keep using the last version you had as long as you like, but you will not get any updates or support anymore.
That lends itself to abuse, so I can see why it isn't widely used: subscribe once for a month, let that lapse, then watch the web for updates and only re-subscribe when you see something you want (again for a month). Perhaps a hybrid where your last version will keep working for a year or something - once you're down to people who are willing to hack the activation process, you're already not going to be paid anyway so it's not worth worrying about.
Adobe: At $10/month, the "Photography" bundle is closer to "upgrade every other version" territory - I paid somewhere around $250 to upgrade from CS5 to CS6, so $120 is not so bad. The normal "single app" subscription is $20 a month, so that is the "held hostage to upgrade every year" rate which I don't like any more than anyone else.
I find it a bit weird to have the Photoshop/Lightroom bundle be cheaper than the "single app" price, and I would join others in arguing that the "cloud" stuff doesn't justify doubling the rate - I think Adobe still has some kinks to iron out.
Sorry for the tangent, but I think the subscription model is better, at least where Adobe is concerned.
I've had the full Creative Cloud for just over a year, as I also use InDesign and am learning Illustrator for render postwork. I got a discount on the first year's subscription due to owning Dreamweaver CS3, which I thought was pretty generous. There are a lot -- and I mean a LOT -- of ways to get the first year discounted to $30 a month. Call customer service. They want you in the subscription plan, so if you have a previous version of any Adobe product, they'll probably work with you.
In my year with the subscription, all of the flagship programs have been updated at least once every two months, including a major upgrade of all products to their 2015 versions. From what I can see, they're still working on major annual releases with new features. The other updates are bug fixes. This is a huge benefit, especially with Photoshop, which needs frequent updates to ensure compatibility with NVidia GPU drivers. I had CS5 and CS6, and both were prone to 3d driver-related crashes after about three months. The subscription format pipelines the updates to you as soon as they're released. Very convenient.
I like the model.
Carrara seems pretty good, at least in terms of being able to do everything I want it to do, but the UI is very clunky, and I prefer Daz's 3Delight render engine. I end up using a couple of different programs to get what I need. Unfortunately, Carrara is rarely in my workflow at the moment. That may change, as I'm modeling my own hair for figures now, and Look At My Hair is prone to crashes. I have a really hard time dealing with that interface.
None of this, of course, keeps me from having fun. :) These products are a blessing for hobbyists.
IMO, the best way is the Allegorythmic way.
It seems that upgrading Carrara is Daz's only source of income but then the thing that has always baffled me is why they dion't promote it to sell more software ? They have reduced the price considerably from the 4/5 hundred dollars they asked way back for V6. So for what you now get for around $150 dollars on discount offer it further baffles me why Poser still seems so popular at greater cost.
At least Daz could hint at what might be in the future otherwise why would anyone invest in it , or keep on using it ?
Completely baffled !
For rendering people I didn't like DS and Carrara at all because of the skin. In most of the DS/Carrara renders the skin looks to me like paper/too dry/gray/mummy-like. So I personally rendered people in Poser. Little effort and quite good looking skin. With a lot of effort you could get good looking skin in DS and Carrara too.
For me this changed with Iray and Octane.
This one, at least, has no mystery at all: when they merged with Gizmodo (IIRC?), they announced that they were going to move away from software to focus on content sales. That's why there was the whole debacle with DAZ Studio Pro/Advanced. They don't bother because they don't care about software sales anymore, which is why I personally am not surprised that we don't even get bug fixes and I don't expect another major improvement in Carrara again - ever. Maybe a minor tweak here and there, but I will be surprised if anything substantial comes along.
Unfortunately, for all the debate and discussion here, maintaining Carrara at all requires at least some focus on software. DAZ does not: their official, stated direction in press releases has been very consistently "content" for years now. Studio gets what little attention they care to spend, and that only to showcase their content... I'd love to be proven wrong, but...
Even development on DS seems to be slowing down. We've been on version 4.blahh for years now.
I wasn't happy with Adobe's move to subscription, especially when the alternative was a pittance credit toward the CS6 version of the bundle I had previously paid full price for, along with the upgrades.
However, the upside has been, I can use any application I want and I always have the latest version ... I don't have to worry about whether the software will run when a new version of the OS comes out. I use Photoshop, Illustrator, and Acrobat Pro all the time. On the old pricing model, it would have cost me about the same money per year to uprade all 3 apps, every time a new version came out, as what I pay now.