Dear DAZ...
Subtropic Pixel
Posts: 2,378
Please update Bryce.
Or turn over the source code to us and let us take it FOSS. Some of us would be honored to take over support of Bryce. The first thing we need to do is clean up the bugs and prep it for 64 bit mode, so that it can finally run natively on modern machines and have memory addressability on systems with 64 to 128 GB RAM.
The next thing we should do is make Bryce able to run as a host OR plugin to DAZ Studio, Blender, Hexagon, and more. The rendering engine is probably in need of modernization too, so that it runs more efficiently on modern processors, including the Apple M1 architecture and its subsequent iterations.
We could start a steering committee, you know, maybe modeled after (pun intended) how they decide what changes and features get done for Blender.
Oh, and speaking of Hexagon, there's another red-headed stepchild that needs some love. Hex needs many of the same things that Bryce needs, ESPECIALLY the bug fixes and 64 Bit mode implementation.
What say you, DAZ? Will you let somebody adopt Bryce and Hex? Pretty please?
You should really do it while some of us are still young enough and mentally able to do the design work and write the code that these great titles deserve. Please don't wait for us to all die off; that would be the saddest end to a bygone era.
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Comments
Clapping whole-heartedly...yes, yes, yes.
Hopefully Daz will read this message, members having been asking to make Bryce open source for years now. Personally I don't use Bryce professionally, so I'm happy to just continue using it as it is, but many great Brycers were forced to switched to other software.
Making an application open source isn't just a matter of saying "This is now open source". Any libraries used in the creation of the application must be open source-compatible, may need modification to make them so, and may require complete replacement. Some modules may similarly be licensed from third parties (e.g. image handling) and may require adjustment or replacement. And of course the lawyers have to go over the package to make sure it is clean, then draw up the new open source license.
Unfortunately, I must agree with Richard Haseltine, though I also fully agree with Subtropic Pixel, NGartplay and mermaid.
Two years after Bryce 7.1 came out, David Brinnen and myself offered an elaborate set for free to (then) DAZ 3D (https://www.daz3d.com/bryce-7-1-pro-integrated-rtr-environments-and-lighting). Our idea was to encourage DAZ 3D to develop Bryce further and also use the render engines from Bryce (there are two) for Studio, that has still no own render engine. DAZ 3D did not even answer and when we reminded them, they showed no interest. Therefore, we submitted the set to the store, it still sells - though not by the thousands :).
Unfortunately, Open Source is no option. The heart of Bryce, the DTE (Deep Texture Editor), is the heart of Bryce and is licensed. I do not know the contracts DAZ 3D took from Corel (v.5) and what license limitations Corel had to accept when it bought Bryce (v.4) from Metacreations but it appears that some parts are still protected by copyright and selling or giving away several parts of the Bryce source code is prohibited - I think such was once discussed in the Steering Committee at the time of development from 6.1 to 6.3, to 7.0 to 7.1.
Yes, I find it sad that Daz 3D does not support Bryce anymore after two major updates (5>6>7) while Carrara enjoyed five (3>4>5>6>7>8 - I started with v.3 and updated up to 8 - as I started with Studio 0.8x). But then, I do not criticise Daz 3D, it is their business, not mine. If they ignore the assets they paid for and now own to make money, it is their decision.
As I always say: look at the bright side. No new bugs are introduced.
I would say that Carrara having a SDK was probably a factor, Bryce was probably more of a closed book to them
just having a SDK would have helped third party developers of which Carrara had many
(not that I know anything about coding etc but it makes sense)
Lawyers aside, could the process of making some outdated modules also be outsourced to the community?
I get what you're saying, Richard and Horo. But "it's too hard because lawyers" is defeatist thinking. Yes, maybe it keeps our DAZ overlords (management) from getting angry with us, but in the long run, this kind of thinking is what keeps us in the software dark ages. I can't imagine that this is what Kai Krause would want, but who knows; maybe somebody should ask him. Well, maybe they should ask him soon, he's 66 years old now, and I've been reading lots of headlines lately of people passing in their 50s and 60s.
Whatever. We should be more "can do" about the modernization of Bryce. In my opinion, this community (all of DAZfolk, not just the Brycefolk), while being the hardest working, simultaneously gives up the good fight way too soon.
But the mathematics cannot be denied, either. As I said above, the creator of Bryce is in his mid-60s. The fact is, we are dying off faster than we get new participants. Just look at the steady flow of "RIP" type threads in The Commons.
For sure, in this industry, we need to at least keep up with modern processor and GPU technology. And I don't mean just accepting that it's compatible and then calling it a day. As an IT manager, I call that "MVP". Minimum Viable Product, and nowhere near acceptable for more than a few sprints. No, we should be TAKING ADVANTAGE of modern technology. To do less SHOULD be unacceptable to all.
Isn't Bryce worth a little bit of fire in the belly? Or will we just be a curiosity one day on some 20-something kid's Wikipedia page? One day, your random page is about Bryce, and another it's about the ancient Assyrian civilization, or "What happened to the Myans?"
No no no. I want more for Bryce, because I think we who love Bryce DESERVE more. And THIS BRYCE COMMUNITY could be teachers to a new generation of Brycers. A new generation that will never exist with the creaky code-base in its current condition.
So when I say, "Dear DAZ", I'm not looking for explanations from people who are already well convinced that we can't. I'm not looking for reasons to join the "we can't" group. I still love you all, but I'm looking for "can do". Does anybody have a fresh jar of "Can Do" we can open up? I'm pretty sure I have a couple of jars in the pantry...you know, next to the "Can-oh-whoop@ss" that I retain for emergency purposes.
But seriously, that somebody should be somebody of authority from DAZ leadership.
everyone is using AI now
Nvidia Canvas, Skybox BlockadeLab
https://skybox.blockadelabs.com/
That's fun Wendy.
Jack rabbit cooking bacon - sci fi
Horses racing in the desert - paint
Shrimp swimming upside down - paint
Daz may own the software (Bryce) but not all the patents for the interface. Product developers may elect to apply for one or both types of patents to fully protect a particular user interface solution. As Hero stated the DTE is the core of Bryce. I do not believe Daz holds the patend for it’s interface or concept. Anyone who has used any of Kai Krause KPT power tools should realize that the DTE is his brain child. Which I would guess he still holds the patend to.
I agree Subtropic Pixel
.. "it's too hard because lawyers" is defeatist thinking" ...I agree. If Corel obtained it then DAZ obtained it ?.Couldn't someone else? Someone needs to.. or it will be laid to rest in the land of forgotten retro software..
I'll be using it within a virtual machine or on my whacky way back retro computer.
DAZ honestly deserves everything the AI behemoth throws at it because that is an active keen/enthusiastic community of coders and innovators
addmittedly they may have jumped the gun on permissions for training data used for their models
but said lawyers will decide
meanwhile DAZ is playing it safe stashing its softwares in the bottom of the sockdrawer with the mothballs while the house burns down
This is not a thread about AI.
Bryce is a bittersweet subject for me, apologies if my statements come off as non-supportive. Bryce development is simply out of our hands as end-users and has been since its inception, due to the details of the original licensing agreements in large part. Lawyers in the way, as well as a lack of interest from those who actually own these licening details, are all a factor. Think of it like music contracts or film studio contracts from 30 years ago...no one wants one of those these days under those old terms, too limiting. Bryce is not the futute of 3d rendering, and looking back, I can now agree that it likely never was. Trust me, I pushed about as hard as any single human being could for Bryce to have more development, but no more. 15 years ago the gap was big, but now it stretches to Alpha Centauri.
The costs of upgrades are too great, and the likelihood of financial returns are too low. The current market simply doesnt need a Bryce or Carrara or Vue or Poser or Hexagon. Even DS is in my opinion starting to run into the wall of relevancy.
Just think Unreal, and it becomes too clear that Bryce will have little chance of out-competing what are now industry standard applications. I commend Daz for the effort they have placed into Bryce and Carrara so far. As a long time Bryce user and lifetime loyalist, I have come to the conclusion that the old days are simply gone, the world and industry have moved on in ways I never would have predicted..shame on me I guess. There are now more people exploring 3d for the purpose of game development than there are people hoping to sell artwork. So we are stuck in my view. Still carry mad love for all my fellow Brycers, we are a special bunch. Like couples who are dysfunctional but refuse to break up because of several cognitive biases...I'm waking up.
Bryce needs to go Hollywood and do a full reboot. Create a brand new application from scratch, make it compatible to at least read Bryce files, and then move forward from there. But again, where is the necessity? Who is out there waiting for the next Bryce update so they can move forward with their projects?
On some level, we should all be moving on to some extent. We should not limit ourselves to Bryce's limitations, regardless of the potential it once possesed. Logic dictates it.
https://gamerficial.com/2023/04/13/gamers-mistake-unreal-engine-5-village-for-real-life-footage/
The link above is impressive no doubt. As content creators, we will notice things that look insane like the color of the water...can't believe they got that wrong when every other detail seems spot on. I chuck that up to artistic choice, otherwise the file could have been created by anyone, loss of artistic signature is what realism tends to bring so I applaud the artist for finding a way to add some surrealism.
Bryce forever!