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Comments
Prixat, I wonder if that is true about PCI 3 vs PCI 4.
I appreciate your break down and explanation.
The wikipedia seems to agree yet motherboards seem to claim differently?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_chipsets
Example: Asus Rog Strix B550-F with wifi:
"Experience next-level performance and connectivity with the ROG Strix B550-F Gaming, featuring PCIe 4.0 and 2.5Gb Ethernet. Robust power and effective cooling make the ROG Strix B550-F Gaming the perfect partner for 3rd Gen AMD Ryzen CPUs."
I definitely do not have this all figured out, yet hope to learn the bits that really matter. Clearly PCI version matter for graphics cards that render.
LOL, Marketing! It just gives you the Headline PCIe 4 it has on the GPU slot and the first M.2 socket.(Every ASUS motherboard has this capability)
...while omitting the shortcomings of the second M.2 that has to go through the 550 chipset.
It's on the second or third screen on this page:
https://rog.asus.com/us/motherboards/rog-strix/rog-strix-b550-f-gaming-wi-fi-model/
Prixat, I think what you are saying is very basic, yet, somehow I missed it. I understand now what you are saying about the CPU vs the Chipset and PCI versions. Thank you!
The trick is to find an "affordable" MB that supports two GPUs at either PCI 4 or 5. Intel boards are out already that support 5.
I have been starting to wonder if it is best to wait for AMD, go Intel right now, or...
I started looking into the pricing of CPUs vs Passmark score and taking notes. Also the price of MBs with PCI version 5 - Intel.
Also what price does one normally pay extra for two GPU slots that are the current PCI version rather than only one?
Does having two slots at top speed matter for rendering? Guessing it matters for gamimg but I am not a gamer.
Last year it was cost effective to go AMD at my budget.
I am not that familiar with Intel CPUs and boards yet they are currently some of the fastest on Passmark for "systems".
In my opinion, building a reliable system starts with selecting chipset/motherboard/processor with no integrated GPU's.
My choice for the past 20 years has been the Intel HEDT platform (High End DeskTop), which at the moment is a bit aging (Chipset X299/LGA2066). There are rumours about the next generation coming at the end of this year, but those are just rumours.
One has to decide, if one wants to build an Italian sports car that's fast but only carries two, can not tow a heavy trailer and has a 'temperament' or a heavy duty pickup truck that can tow the moon.
Its a tough time to make buyers decisions... we are on the cusp of the next generation of CPUs (AMD) and GPUs (Nvidia and AMD), that will be just a few months away (September). Prices are already starting to fall
A confluence of things are/going to put pressure on the market. Crypto is in free fall and the folks that have kept prices way higher than MSRP for the last 3 years by buying any RTX card they could get their hands on, are dumping their used cards and not looking to buy new ones.
Fingers crossed, but without all these pressures, the RTX 4000 serious shouldn't see the same issues as we did with the 3000 launch.
At the very least, once the current generation of CPUs and GPUs become the "last" generation, their prices should be more reasonable. If you can afford to wait until the fall, its probably the best play
There is always the next generation just around the corner...
When you use components that are older (=been on the market for 1-2 years), you get them cheaper and usually the teething problems have already been fixed.
The amount of data pushed around during a render is a trickle compared to a screenful of millions of pixels the GPU normally handles, at 120 times a second, during a game.
Intel may have got the speed record back, but their also back to their usual ways of throwing lots of Watts at it. They don't care since they're not paying for those Watts!
In terms of 'cores per buck' I think it's still AMD and 'lots of slightly slower cores' render quicker than 'fewer faster cores'.
What are you eyeing at this point? Does the HEDT still make sense in terms of price for DS?
Chumly, this really is an interesting time. There are so many factors. You mentioned some really important ones. The landscape is changing fast!
I have just bought components for my next rig, Asus WS X299 SAGE/10G + i9-9940X, so...
Chumly, (or anyone that wants to chime in) what is your take on the chip shortage and where we are in that?
I don't think that I ever fully "got it" why that happened.
It seemed like "a perfect storm" that hit key industries. I got the the impression that silicon waffers went down first - or nearly first.
Then some whole chain reaction. Then Covid then then...
Yet I was never really sure.
Prixat, My quick price checking with my notes confirms that too Yet, my sampling was small. When the AMD chips drop (into availability) this should get interesting. Although like PerttiA mentioned there are different echelons like creator or HEDT I have not fully explored. Watts and heat. Ya that matters. The whole evolution of computers is tied to that. Computers used to need giant refrigerator units and took up whole floors of buildings. My main computer just had a fan failure on the first day of summer!
PerittiA, that sounds like an "extreme" board. Normally out of my range. I will try read about as it sounds interesting.
What makes it worth the price for you? This whole post/thread is a exploration of where spend the $ for DS. Different things are showing up that matter to each. So interesting.
The chip got a Passmark score of...
To start with, the Intel HEDT platform has proven to be extremely compatible and stable foundation to build on, which was very important when I was testing hardware components in the past, also the expandability provided by the chipset is better than with the 'consumer' level chipsets - Building that heavy duty pickup truck here, which can carry everything and the kitchen sink, while towing that moon
Originally I meant to recycle components from my current X99 + i7, but slowly I have collected almost everything for a complete new build... Only missing new RAM sticks.
...the other matter is Intel's new core confuguration which is split into "P" and "E" cores. "P" cores have the usual hyperthreading both "P" (Performance) that have full hyperthreading capability, and E" (Efficiency) ones have only only single thread. So for example a 12 Core CPU will 8 "P" and 4 "E" cores yielding a total of 20 instead of 24 threads.
Supposedly this is great for gaming but other functions, not so much,
Wow, nice board. Support 44 PCI-e lanes on the processor. The PLX PCI Express switch chips seem interesting.
@PerttiA You didn't snip enough of my quote, if you kept going, you would have got to the part where I said
"At the very least, once the current generation of CPUs and GPUs become the "last" generation, their prices should be more reasonable. If you can afford to wait until the fall, its probably the best play"
Also, yes, new generation is always right around the corner... but I think you will admit there is a difference between "right around the corner = 2.5 Months" and "Right Around the Corner = 3rd quarter of 2023".
Crypto Miners Start Dumping Graphic Cards
I just got done majorly upgrading my whole system over the last two-and-a-half or three years. I ended up with three major machines with which I am very happy.
I have a 300 level motherboard, a 400 level board and a 500 level board with 8th, 10th, and 11th generation CPUs respectively.
And just as I got finished with everything and was standing back admiring my handiwork, they announce 12th gen Intel and the 600 level motherboards. (*sigh*).
I admit they look pretty spiffy and zippy, but also power hungry. I'm beginning to wonder when we'll need to install a second power line to the house and get monthly deliveries of liquid nitrogen.
When does it result in diminishing returns? Which stratospheric height will the next generation reach? When will it be more reasonable to pay for a rendering service and let somebody in the cloud do your rendering on some giant machine with multiple power sources and a perpetual supply of liquid nitrogen? Business opportunity?
Oh, wait..., what if we use up all the nitrogen on Earth? It's not like it's an inexhaustable supply. Oh..., wait..., um..., yeah, I guess it pretty much is.
But I'm sure that if mankind put its mind to it we could use up the atmospheric nitrogen, reducing air pressure, planes wouldn't fly, champagne bottles would explode, fires would ravage the planet, and if that doesn't end us all, the high oxygen concentration would finish us off. And you thought you had nothing to worry about. You're welcome.
(It's the champagne I'm worried about.)
And just to make my point about power issues with the latest gen CPUs & GPUs.
Yeah, I hate the hair (and the continual fussing with it on-air), but he does good work.
I will have $1600 in November which might let me buy a nVidia RTX 4090 if they are available. That is priority 1. It feels crazy spending that on a single video card! I will buy an extended warranty.
Priority 2 is an Apple Airbook with an M1 chip. As I don't plan on using the Airbook so much, last year's model will do. That's another $1000 I need to save.
Priority 3 is to sort out my desktop rebuilt. I want a PCIe 5 motherboard but the CPU / MB combo I choose now depends on researching which has the best integrated GPU. Intel or AMD. I know the next gen of AMD will have RDNA2 GPUs but much to my disappointment RDNA2 does not do RT rendering or the integrated circuits used in AI as does nVidia RTX 3rd Gen. So I will see then if Intel's does. I don't think they do but I'll check. So for me it will probably be an upgrade to PCIe5 with an AMD APU that has RDNA GPU and I hope a 16 core / 32 thread CPU since now all iGPUs are standard that shouldn't be a problem anymore. I have no ideal what all that Priority 3 will cost, but with NFT/CryptoCurrency going bust it should be only marginally more expensive then when I built my last AMD based PC in late 2019/early 2020. Well a 20% - 25% markup due to covid-19 inflation isn't really "marginal", it's quite large but well, can't change the past.
PerttiA, you mentioned not really wanting a iGPU and nonesuch00 mentioned wanting an iGPU.
I have gotten the impression only Nvidia based GPUs of any sort (eGPU & iGPU or a card) are required for iRay. Intel is coming out with their own GPU card and has had iGPUs for years as had AMD although not in all CPUs. If the iGPU did render (which is unlikely) that would be awesome. If not, are there benefits to having that iGPU for DS? Would that free an Nvidia card for rendering only rather than display and rendering? Anyone know? And would drivers be an issue?
LeatherGryphon, I was worried we would run out of craft beer. Now you've got me worrying about carbon, and hydrogen and helium and... where did I put my periodic chart?
Iray is Nvidia's renderer, they have no interest in enabling other GPU's to render Iray.
Integrated GPU's in systems that are using add-on GPU's, have presented problems and conflicts ever since they were introduced - Sometimes the problems come from having drivers from two different manufacturers, sometimes the problem is hardware related - If one doesn't need something, it is better for that something not to exist at all.
I would have liked my new motherboard without the 10G net, but that version was pulled a couple of days before I bought mine.
...if that happened Western Oregon would become become an economic wasteland.
As to carbon, given the way we are going, I don't see a shortage of it anytime soon so craft beer may be safe (unless water becomes scarce).
*until
Kyoto Kid, here in Oregon, I like to think, that Sasquatch are protecting all the important beer making stuff.
If I ever left Oregon, I would get really worried!
Anyone thinking about a motherboard that is not ATX?
E-ATX, MICRO ATX, Mini ITX Etc?
I love the tiny mini ITX cases and boards yet I am not yet sure what one loses going that way, hoping to look into that. They are often less expensive.
I haven't really considered E-ATX, since my last dual processor workstation of old. Yet they are an option. The Dell systems I have seem to be Micro ATX.
Sounds like most of you are thinking about buying new. I look up used prices on eBay and such and there are deals yet they can be fairly elusive, you have hunt or wait.
I've got one machine that is a microATX. It's a 570 level board running an 11th gen i5. It could quite nicely handle an RTX-3080
and would be a good DAZing machine if I could ever afford a graphics card for it.
It wasn't difficult building in the smaller case. Yeah, it has fewer PCIe slots than a full ATX, but how many PCIe slots do you really need in a modern machine? (Unless you're me and have a fetish for filling every slot with a card and every port with a cable.)