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I like the variety... yes they do have a similar feel to them.
I remember spending a huge amount of time getting a particular prop to come out just right, only to realize when I put it into Manga Studio that it was covered up by a word balloon. Yeah... gotta watch that or you will waste time on the wrong things.
I also had to decide early on that, with VERY rare exceptions if it is something I can do simply/easily, I will only use products I can buy or DL from places like here, Rendo, ShareCG, etc. I spent almost a month in Blender trying to make an object that was a background prop in one panel of a flashback scene and realized, this is a freaking waste of time. This means when I am writing, as I get story ideas, the first thing I do is check on the various shops to make sure something is available that I can DL.
This is not so much about saving space as about the style choices of modern writers. Peter David, who is one of the best known writers in comics, talked about this in his book about how to write comics and GNs (which, btw, I can highly recommend). He points out that comic-books originated out of print books. And as a result they had, back in the golden/silver ages, lots of writing, tons of narration, thought balloons. Essentially, they are the next step from novels that had, in the old days, illustration plates -- the just had more illustrations. But in more modern times, comics are stylistically being done in a way that is more related to movies. Consequently, the stories are more about images than words, and there are less words per book (I did a count once... I think X-Men #1 from the Silver Age had something like 4,000 words in a single issue; in 2011, Supergirl #1 from the New 52 had 600 or so). So comics of today are meant to be more cinematic than novelistic, as it were.
I think to some degree he's right, and to some degree he's rationalizing. In the print market, comic books have in the last 10-20 years adopted a style euphemistically called "decompressed." What this means is, stories that, as you say, used to be done in a single issue, are now done in 5 or 6 issues. No more story actually happens... they just spread it out with larger panels, more splash pages (the last issue of the Justice League Trinity War event 2 years ago had 8 splash pages, some of them double-sized). Since generally no more happens in a single panel no matter what the size, doing 10 pages worth of "splash" is 2 pages worth of regular comic, so they spread out the story. The primary reason behind this (no matter what Peter David says to rationalize it), is to sell more books. If Marvel sells you 6 issues of All New X-Men rather than a single issue for the same story, they are making 6x as much money. There is a reason lots of old-scholers like myself get pissed at paying nearly $5 for a comic these days, and being able to read it in < 10 minutes (back in the day, a comic written by Bill Mantlo would take upwards of 3x that long to finish).
However, regardless of the reason, decompression is sadly the norm in comics today. I am not sure you can fault the webcomic creators, who in fairness are only trying to produce the types of comics they see in print, for mimicking that style.
But I agree with you that the modern "Dark Age" style, in addition to many, many other problems (such as superheroes acting more like villains than like heroes), does waste space and put too little story on each page. Which is why my comic is being done in a decidedly 1970s "bronze age" style. The story is still set in the present day, and the narration is first-person in most cases rather than 3rd, which was generally not done in the BA, but there is way more writing on the page than in a modern comic... and I have only 2 splash pages in the entire issue. In fact, I have so much story I often have to cram more than 6 panels into a page, and I keep having to cut and cut dialogue from the Scrivener file once I get it into Manga Studio because it won't fit.
You've gotta realize though (and I certainly do) that modern comic readers who do not have a background in pre-1990s comics will probably consider what I do to be "over-written" and to have "too much reading" involved. Such complaints have been leveled against George Perez himself, recently, for the same thing.
Then maybe they need to get off Facebook/Twitter long enough to actually read something...the only problem with that is they might learn something, like language does not consist of all consonants and hashtags.
Maybe I'm getting old...my kids yell at me to turn DOWN my music, so I can't be old...but I miss the days of READING a comic book. It wasn't an assault on your optic nerves, either. When I want a movie story line, I go to a move (or pull it up on Netflix). When I want to read a comic book...I pull out a pre-1985 one...
So, it sounds like your comic may be worth looking at, just for the fact it has 'story'.
There are some (few) writers who still put story into their comics. Perez still does, although he has had health issues that have curtailed his work lately. He has a miniseries coming out from Boom! called "Sirens" you might want to check out if you miss pre-Crisis/Secret Wars style comics. Jonathan Luna's Alex + Ada has a lot more writing than most comics today. And although there isn't a ton of writing per panel, Greg Rucka's Lazarus has not, I think, had more than 1 or 2 splash pages in the entire 15 or 16 issue run of the series so far.
But yeah... most of the time comics blow by very quickly. 3-4 panels max per page, 4-5 splash pages per issue, all action, little story, hardly any character development. Action is so central to most comics now that most heroes don't even have (or at least spend time in) their secret identities any more -- which I sorely miss. I used to love "secret ID time" when I was a kid.
My larger point though was, I don't think it's necessarily fair to blame today's (younger) webcomic authors for putting out webcomics in that style when it may very well be all they know.
I read a lot of good advice. Tons of experience. Some I disagree with, some I don't. You should know that it's an enormous undertaking. You don't have a writer, penciller, inker, colorer, editor, and letterer which compiles many manhours into a concerted effort. You don't get paid to do what you love. It's just you. Today's comic writers are incredible. The artists have ungodly talent and come from all types of backgrounds. I've written a few of them and I can tell you they are as nice as they are talented and they are very talented.
But you have something else. Maybe. Perhaps. You have a dream and let that dream be a labor of love. It's my understand that it took J.R.R. Tolkien 12 years to write Lord of the Rings. That is a labor love. Don't give up on it. Follow your dream. Your first work will be okay but in a while you'll learn what works and what doesn't. Do your best.
Then maybe they need to get off Facebook/Twitter long enough to actually read something...the only problem with that is they might learn something, like language does not consist of all consonants and hashtags.
Maybe I'm getting old...my kids yell at me to turn DOWN my music, so I can't be old...but I miss the days of READING a comic book. It wasn't an assault on your optic nerves, either. When I want a movie story line, I go to a move (or pull it up on Netflix). When I want to read a comic book...I pull out a pre-1985 one...
So, it sounds like your comic may be worth looking at, just for the fact it has 'story'.
I don't disagree, but sadly the world has changed, and if it doesn't beep, boop, flash, or explode, many people just aren't interested. people move at such a fast pace now, I doubt some classic movies, like the Wizard of Oz, would ever get made today. Simply just too long and not enough action. I blame movie execs, but it's not really their fault, they are looking to sell to the masses. unfortunately, most of the time that means bigger explosions, less story... Look at James Cameron's Avatar. It was a visually Stunning movie, but totally devoid of original story. I still think Kevin Costner has grounds to sue for copyright infringement...
Now compared to Nick's Avatar, the Last Airbender (Thankfully, the unfortunate similarities of titles are in the title only), the animation is simplistic to the point of almost being crude, yet the depth of story, character development with so many layers, fantastic use of foreshadowing, deft use of subtle and blunt humor make this show one of the best I've ever seen, and I'm still shocked it was produced by Nick. I've watched the series 3 times and was still spotting things I had missed the first 2.
However, this impart, is why I ended up choosing the RenPy engine for my work, as it allows me to go beyond the static web-comic, by introducing interactivity, and even some simple animation. Being a "choose your adventure" style with a very adult theme, you can A: Go to the Library, where you might learn how to defeat the monster you'll encounter the next day, or B: Go to the Tavern and get wasted and hit on other characters. however, if you drink too much, you could wake up in an alley someplace, beaten and robbed.
But of course it's a struggle to keep the proper balance between story and flash-bang-booms....
I don't disagree, but sadly the world has changed, and if it doesn't beep, boop, flash, or explode, many people just aren't interested. people move at such a fast pace now, I doubt some classic movies, like the Wizard of Oz, would ever get made today. Simply just too long and not enough action. I blame movie execs, but it's not really their fault, they are looking to sell to the masses. unfortunately, most of the time that means bigger explosions, less story... Look at James Cameron's Avatar. It was a visually Stunning movie, but totally devoid of original story. I still think Kevin Costner has grounds to sue for copyright infringement..
First Never embrace being old. Embrace being wiley and experienced. Beside, we stood the wall so it's okay to get a price break on breakfast and coffee. Movie execs want to make money and that can be tough calls cuz the competition against movies is stiff. It's why the Golden Compass got the treatment it did..and why there were no sequels. George Lucas still got grief for the virgin birth in star wars but the legions of fans got him through. Most movies don't have a chance to explore religious or sexual themes that were presented in the stories. But thanks to some brave producers (who still wanna make a buck. Nothin' wrong with that) series like Game of Thrones or Attack on Titan do get made. They may run long but they try to hit on most parts of the books. Lord of the Rings was originally supposed to be a two parter but the money that backed the movise took a chance and gave Peter Jackson that third movie so he could do it right. He still missed a few parts from the book but I don't think anyone would dispute the entertaining success of the movies and that he did follow the books. Edge of Tomorrow IS an EXCELLENT movie but from what I've read they bought the rights so they could use the idea and follow the story a lot more loosely.
Know your story and create accordingly. Luckily we can be a little braver than those that came before us. That which was considered too daring when I was a kid, is now considered tame. We can be more daring in our books and reach a wider audience thanks to that same technology that threatened to make libraries obsolete. They aren't by the way. I live in a smallish town of about 15000, our library is packed!
By the way...Too many words? Someone really called out George Perez for too many words? Reminds of me the movie Amadeus when the King mentioned Mozart used too many notes. I'm not saying that Perez should be compared to Mozart...well yes he can! So there!
With my webcomic, switching to Iray has slowed me down a lot, though so far I blame learning new techniques (and a bunch of life obstacles).
I might, in time, decide it just takes too long for what I want to do and consider ways to simplify -- maybe a more economical approach to telling stories, less dialog-heavy: I've struggled with that so far, you can only cram so much text before it drowns, and finding the right balance is tricky.
I've also considered going for a less photorealistic style, either using something like Skunkville Noir or doing it in post. But I THINK I prefer photorealistic, for now.
I hope to work on a few graphic novel projects once development of my NPR algos are a little bit further along. Most of my time lately has been put into line art stuff, but I've also got painting algos in the works:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/804286/
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/54697/
On a side note, Unity has some nice tools which I plan to use to do the actual creation of the functional book myself (in order to make it more interesting/interactive than just standard images/pages).
- Greg
Took a look at the sample renders you provided in your links. Both the ink renders and the painted-style renders are the most amazing output I've ever seen anyone do with Studio. I didn't think it was even possible to get Studio to render like that (and leaves just about every toon shader output I've ever seen in the dust). I know it's more complex than using shaders, but if you were to figure out how market your algorithms as a product in the DAZ store that can do both the painted and ink styled renders--I would buy it in a heartbeat. I'm already reaching for my credit card.
And yes...the first series is fantastic. I've got kids...and I've seen it more times than I can count. The Legend of Kora, while better than most, isn't as good.
Well, the huge advantage of doing a webcomic as a hobby is, we don't have to care what "sells." We can make the stories we want to make and if people don't like it, so what? I'm not doing it for THEM anyway... I'm doing it for ME... because ever since I was a kid I wanted to make my own comic with my own made-up superheroes and supervillains, but I never could because I couldn't draw. Now DAZ has given me the ability to realize that dream. I don't make money from it -- I spend money on it (hundreds and hundreds of dollars, on virtual items that just sit on my computer's hard drive, which to many people probably seems extremely silly and wasteful). I do this like I would do with any other hobby (such as model trains, which I have done in the past and will be doing again in the future), because I'm buying stuff to help me enjoy the hobby. I have no plan or expectation that I will ever make a dime from my comic, so I can do what I want with it.
Now, once it is ready I will share it, on the off chance that a few other people might happen to enjoy the story or like the art or what have you, and might want to follow along. Hopefully some will be kind enough to provide constructive criticism that I can use to make my work even better. But if nobody ever reads it, I will still have done it, and that's what matters.
As a result, I don't have to cater to the modern flash-bang mentality. If people think there's "too much reading" in my comic? I'd just laugh at them.
This is not so much about saving space as about the style choices of modern writers. Peter David, who is one of the best known writers in comics, talked about this in his book about how to write comics and GNs (which, btw, I can highly recommend). He points out that comic-books originated out of print books. And as a result they had, back in the golden/silver ages, lots of writing, tons of narration, thought balloons. Essentially, they are the next step from novels that had, in the old days, illustration plates -- the just had more illustrations. But in more modern times, comics are stylistically being done in a way that is more related to movies. Consequently, the stories are more about images than words, and there are less words per book (I did a count once... I think X-Men #1 from the Silver Age had something like 4,000 words in a single issue; in 2011, Supergirl #1 from the New 52 had 600 or so). So comics of today are meant to be more cinematic than novelistic, as it were.
I think to some degree he's right, and to some degree he's rationalizing. In the print market, comic books have in the last 10-20 years adopted a style euphemistically called "decompressed." What this means is, stories that, as you say, used to be done in a single issue, are now done in 5 or 6 issues. No more story actually happens... they just spread it out with larger panels, more splash pages (the last issue of the Justice League Trinity War event 2 years ago had 8 splash pages, some of them double-sized). Since generally no more happens in a single panel no matter what the size, doing 10 pages worth of "splash" is 2 pages worth of regular comic, so they spread out the story. The primary reason behind this (no matter what Peter David says to rationalize it), is to sell more books. If Marvel sells you 6 issues of All New X-Men rather than a single issue for the same story, they are making 6x as much money. There is a reason lots of old-scholers like myself get pissed at paying nearly $5 for a comic these days, and being able to read it in < 10 minutes (back in the day, a comic written by Bill Mantlo would take upwards of 3x that long to finish).
However, regardless of the reason, decompression is sadly the norm in comics today. I am not sure you can fault the webcomic creators, who in fairness are only trying to produce the types of comics they see in print, for mimicking that style.
But I agree with you that the modern "Dark Age" style, in addition to many, many other problems (such as superheroes acting more like villains than like heroes), does waste space and put too little story on each page. Which is why my comic is being done in a decidedly 1970s "bronze age" style. The story is still set in the present day, and the narration is first-person in most cases rather than 3rd, which was generally not done in the BA, but there is way more writing on the page than in a modern comic... and I have only 2 splash pages in the entire issue. In fact, I have so much story I often have to cram more than 6 panels into a page, and I keep having to cut and cut dialogue from the Scrivener file once I get it into Manga Studio because it won't fit.
You've gotta realize though (and I certainly do) that modern comic readers who do not have a background in pre-1990s comics will probably consider what I do to be "over-written" and to have "too much reading" involved. Such complaints have been leveled against George Perez himself, recently, for the same thing.
I doubt if comic books originated out of print books. They originated out of newspaper Sunday funnies and comic strips where most of the original artists came from, people like Jack Kirby, Frank Frazetta, and others. If any writing influenced comics it would have been from pulp magazines where DC founder Major Wheeler-Nicholson came from.
I started reading comic books in the mid 1950s and stop buying comic books in the early 1980s; I haven’t bought any since then. I think comic books have gone down hill since their high point in the early 70s. I go by what Stan Lee said – a comic book has stand on it’s own without any dialogue, if not you not doing it right. Marvel and DC make most of their money form television and movies, Marvel will make more from the opening weekend of the new Avengers movie than it will make from it’s entire comic book line in a year. If it weren’t TV and movie I don’t think Marvel or DC would be in the comic book business.
There has to be compromise between too much dialogue and not enough, after all you’re not writing a novel. I look at comics more as editor than as a writer, Stan Lee is my role model. It’s not so much redoing today comic or the comics of the past, it’s coming up with something completely new. I would like to see a way that graphic storytelling could (should) done. I have yet to see anybody online do it well using 3D models. I think there’s a lot people suffer from tunnel vision when viewing their own work (me included). I think creating a comic book is something you can’t (and should) do alone.
What really impresses my about ATLA, beyond that which was mentioned before, is that it was essentially a kids show, but they didn't shy away from tough topics, and they didn't dumb it down, which of course made it a good show, even as an adult.
LoK, season 1 was ok, not great, but ok. Season 2 lost me real fast. The story became dull and flat, almost predictable, with almost no character growth. They lost the spark that made ATLA great, I was so disappointed in season 2 that I couldn't even watch 3&4. The best of season 2 however was the "Beginnings" with Avatar Wan.
ATLA is some of the inspiration for my work, not in the story itself, but in the storytelling.
Embrace growing old, for it is a privilege not afforded everyone. However nothing says you have to do it quietly.
Character development is important to me, so I spend a lot of time doing it. This is a typical character turn around, it gives me a good all around feel for the character. The green rectangle in background is the height of M4
This a pose test of a character to see how well that character poses.
This is an expression test to see how well the face looks with expression poses applied.
Embrace growing old, for it is a privilege not afforded everyone. However nothing says you have to do it quietly.
Much better said than I did. Well done!
Much better said than I did. Well done!
Yep...just ask Mick Jagger about that...
That's his opinion. I don't happen to share it. I think it's false on its face, because if a comic can stand on its own without dialogue, why have any? Clearly there is some value-add for dialogue or DC and Marvel would cut their budgets substantially by doing away with writers entirely. I could easily flip it around and say the script ought to stand on its own without pictures, too. But just as surely, the pictures are a value-add.
Comic books are neither just writing nor just art... they are a unique form of creativity in which the words and pictures are married together. A picture may be worth 1,000 words, but a comic-book panel is worth more than either a picture or 1000 words alone, because it combines the two art-forms into one. No other medium has this, and it is why I like comic-books.
Tons of people do an entire comic almost completely by themselves. Terry Moore's Echo is an example. He does the story, the art, and the lettering. He is also the publisher. I have not read the series myself but it's received some critical acclaim in some circles. Walt Simonson did everything but letter and color Thor in his famous run. There are other examples. It's not common, but it has been done, and often with very good results.
I'm not sure why you would say something creative "shouldn't" be done... that's like saying poetry that doesn't rhyme "shouldn't" be done... or animated full-length features "shouldn't" be done.
Now, doing it alone is certainly hard, and will be much slower than if you have a team. But as long as you accept that and your readers understand that you won't be putting out 32-page comics on a monthly basis, but more like a page a week or something, why shouldn't it be done? You might not like it but other people might. And even if no one else does... as long as the creator enjoys it, why not do it?
On the contrary to the creators who want to try making a comic or a GN using DAZ, I say, go for it. Just go in with your eyes open about how long, hard, and expensive it will be. But if you want to do it, do it... don't let anyone tell you not to.
I actually have two webcomics. The first, in my sig, is a traditional format, more or less. The second is entirely wordless ( http://ladyanddragon.webcomic.ws/ )
There's a lot of directions you can go. But it's generally good to avoid anything that requires lots of text.
(I'm FB friends with a comic book artist I greatly admire, who laughed about some of her early works crammed with words)
Is that a loincloth for genesis or M4? Either way, that is an excellent thought provoking shot. I was wondering if they girls were dragonstew or being guarded by the dragon. It forced me to look at the rest.
I do totally disagree. If you have Shakespeare or Grant Morrison doing the writing, you let them write and be glad they do. Yes, the choice of genius is deliberate. Shirow Masamune is another example of someone who uses a lot of words (Ghost in the Shell) but mixes it in with great art to create a masterpiece.
It's 'basic loincloth' for Genesis 2 Male. I'm not entirely sure where I got it from, I suspect I got it in some free somethingorother.
And thank you!
I have to poke at that some more, at some point. I sort of got derailed with all this Iray stuff. ;)
Doesn't that depend on a lot of things? For example, the style in which the comic is done. The taste of both the creator and the reader? And most importantly, what the scene calls for.
If you read a really well-done comic, like Lazarus by Greg Rucka (IMO, the best comic on the stands today), you will find that the amount of text on the page varies widely. During several scenes there is not one word... Rucka knows that the art carries the story, and he has an excellent artist (Mike Lark) who can put the emotion into the scene. He's had zero text in one or two fight scenes and some spy-like scenes with the main character (Forever) climbing up a wall or something. But then there are other scenes with people talking to each other that are full of text and word balloons. These differences occur in the same issue, within pages of each other. it all depends on what the scene calls for.
Peter David, in his book about comics and GNs (which, again, I highly recommend) makes this point when talking about pacing. If you have almost no dialog anywhere in your book, it's tough to change the feel of the pace. But if you vary the amount, with lots on some pages, and none on other pages, it will make the scenes not only take a different amount of time to read for the reader, but also give the reader a different sense of pace, of how much time is going by. You can make things feel "sped up" and increase the tension by reducing both the # of panels on the page and the amount of words in a scene. So for example, you can have 6 panels (2x3) on a page with lots of talking. Then when a fight breaks out, switch to 3 panels a page and only sound FX and a little dialogue like "look out!" and "Ooof!" The difference between the two layouts and text amounts makes it "feel" to the reader like the action scene is going faster and is more intense.
But if ALL your pages are 3 panels and hardly any dialogue, then you lose the ability to control the sense of pace. That's why he recommends varying it, and I agree.
But apart from that, there is also just stylistic preference. I happen to like comics with a lot of text, like Astro City still has. One of the most "texty" writers in the 70s and 80s was Bill Mantlo. I still consider him the best writer in the history of comics. I'll never forget, to this day, one of the best narrative captions he ever wrote, in Rom, when Rom was attacked by a metal spider controlled by the Metal Master, and it squirted acid at him, and Mantlo wrote something like, "Searing spider slaver scores cyborg steel, and the silver spaceknight plummets surfaceward." It doesn't get any better than that. :)
Not everyone likes narration and thought balloons, but having them isn't a bad thing... it's a style choice. And some of us still like them.
You know, I said 'avoid anything that requires lots of text,' not 'text is evil and should be avoided.'
Sheesh. ;)
Also, updated my second webcomic: http://ladyanddragon.webcomic.ws/
At one end, comics and graphic novels shade over into illustrated books. Gaiman's Dream Hunters comes to mind. Why should children have all the fun of illustrated books?
I just checked out your update. There is sadness, shame and anger here, What is this world you've created?
I like your work.
Though I would say, the blond woman's skin looks over-exposed compared to everyone else in the shot. I know she is paler than the others but you probably should tone the light down or else do a little modding of her SSS or specularity.
Took a look at the sample renders you provided in your links. Both the ink renders and the painted-style renders are the most amazing output I've ever seen anyone do with Studio. I didn't think it was even possible to get Studio to render like that (and leaves just about every toon shader output I've ever seen in the dust). I know it's more complex than using shaders, but if you were to figure out how market your algorithms as a product in the DAZ store that can do both the painted and ink styled renders--I would buy it in a heartbeat. I'm already reaching for my credit card.
Thanks, Fragg - I'm working on it! Waiting to hear back from DAZ about some of the possibilities . . .
- Greg