Non-photorealistic Renders (NPR)

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  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,503

    I'm not a furry, but... find some of the stuff fun sometimes. ;)

     

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  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,179
    edited March 2017

    vey interesting thread!

    this is something done with Carrara combining multi pass renders - eg coverage, index, diffuse etc  - worked up in fotosketcher, painter 2017 and oloneo for fine tuning

    Question: what multipass renders does studio do out of the box,? (thanks for any answers)

    eg in Carrara if you  render out an index pass then each object is clearly delineated with a different grey - so you can select objects easily in  post

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    Post edited by Headwax on
  • Unfortunately Daz Studio doesn't have any multipass function out of the box, at least not that I know of. Any multipass renders have to be set up manually.

    Depending on the type of multipass render, this can be either a simple or very tedious process.

    Like, for most normal 3Delight renders, some basic light-based multipass renders would suffice, simply switching on/off each light and rendering them out seperately (e.g Ambient Light, Diffuse Light, Rim Light, that kind of thing).

    However, for more complex renders, especially NPR renders, you're probably gonna want things like depth passes, normal passes, masks, etc...those are significantly more tedious to do, as they typically require either the use of special cameras and/or shaders which you'll have to manually apply for each pass (unless you're good with scripting, in which case you can probably automate the process somewhat).

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,179
    edited March 2017

    Unfortunately Daz Studio doesn't have any multipass function out of the box, at least not that I know of. Any multipass renders have to be set up manually.

    Depending on the type of multipass render, this can be either a simple or very tedious process.

    Like, for most normal 3Delight renders, some basic light-based multipass renders would suffice, simply switching on/off each light and rendering them out seperately (e.g Ambient Light, Diffuse Light, Rim Light, that kind of thing).

    However, for more complex renders, especially NPR renders, you're probably gonna want things like depth passes, normal passes, masks, etc...those are significantly more tedious to do, as they typically require either the use of special cameras and/or shaders which you'll have to manually apply for each pass (unless you're good with scripting, in which case you can probably automate the process somewhat).

    thanks for that detailed explanation Nathan - much obliged.

    So even if I could set up these different passes I would have to render them out separately , rather than like in Carrara where they all render out at the same time as the 'beauty' pass?

     

     

     

    Post edited by Headwax on
  • head wax said:

    Unfortunately Daz Studio doesn't have any multipass function out of the box, at least not that I know of. Any multipass renders have to be set up manually.

    Depending on the type of multipass render, this can be either a simple or very tedious process.

    Like, for most normal 3Delight renders, some basic light-based multipass renders would suffice, simply switching on/off each light and rendering them out seperately (e.g Ambient Light, Diffuse Light, Rim Light, that kind of thing).

    However, for more complex renders, especially NPR renders, you're probably gonna want things like depth passes, normal passes, masks, etc...those are significantly more tedious to do, as they typically require either the use of special cameras and/or shaders which you'll have to manually apply for each pass (unless you're good with scripting, in which case you can probably automate the process somewhat).

    thanks for that detailed explanation Nathan - much obliged.

    So even if I could set up these different passes I would have to render them out separately , rather than like in Carrara where they all render out at the same time as the 'beauty' pass?

     

     

     

    Yup, pretty much. I just use the "direct to file" feature and make sure to give them all descriptive filenames.

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,179

    Thanks, Nathan - I didnt know about the 'direct to file' feature - handy to know. :) Cheers again!

  • FirePro9FirePro9 Posts: 436

    In DS when using Iray you can use canvases, and that provides the same or similar to multipass, I believe.

    Also, the LineRender9000 addon for DS does multipass rendering, or similar, as well.

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,179

    Thank you FirePro9, I am just reading through this thread and am up to page 15 or similar - 

    Linerender9000 looks good thanks, I have it wish listed. Hopefully they will have a catchup catchup sale ......

    Thanks for the data on Canvases - I'll have a look at them -  my machine has an older Nvidia card (I didnt need a gaming machine so I bought extra ram and hard drive)  so

    Iray will be on the list when I get the Machine updated .

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 31,929

    I have little luck with iray canvases in spite of many posts on this forum about them where users say they work as they should

    they save black  mostly

    are in EXR format some can be converted with image magic or Blender but its more trouble than its worth when I can just use Octane render or Carrara and get exactly what I want

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,179

    Thanks Wendy :) I am just going through Beginner to Advanced in Studio and am up to  lesson "How to aim your Camera" lol :) Or similar.

    I havent really looked at Iray yet - luckily I noticed last night my Oloneo HDR can (?) operate on exr.

    Carrara is my go to but I've spent x amount of bucks getting Genesis stuff recently to find that a 6000 mb duf file saves as  HUGE  car file.....

     We need an NPR thread there as I know Diomede and  a few others are interested.

    ToonPro111 (the one accessible in the scene filters?) in Carrara is actually pretty good if you combine it with other renders in post.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 31,929
    head wax said:

    Thanks Wendy :) I am just going through Beginner to Advanced in Studio and am up to  lesson "How to aim your Camera" lol :) Or similar.

    I havent really looked at Iray yet - luckily I noticed last night my Oloneo HDR can (?) operate on exr.

    Carrara is my go to but I've spent x amount of bucks getting Genesis stuff recently to find that a 6000 mb duf file saves as  HUGE  car file.....

     We need an NPR thread there as I know Diomede and  a few others are interested.

    ToonPro111 (the one accessible in the scene filters?) in Carrara is actually pretty good if you combine it with other renders in post.

    I must get that one day (toonpro I only have YAtoon!)

     

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,179
    edited March 2017

    sorry Wendy, I meant the built in one Toon!Part111 . ToonPro itself is wonderful for getting outlines - you can get outlines on shading domain edges etc - as opposed to a coverage pass which just outlines the objects.

    Post edited by Headwax on
  • ToborTobor Posts: 2,300
    edited March 2017

    All the fuss about Iray -- it's a photorealistic renderer, so is it needed for non photorealistic art? Even major animated movies don't use the type of PBR that Iray is -- they actually use something much closer to 3Delight (Renderman).

    Head Wax, I'd say you have a winning ticket with your Carrara workflow. The sample you posted is worthy of commercial illustration in a children's book (IMO).  The lines might be a little thick for my tastes (those are always hard to get just right), but Mister Mouse looks like he's ready for a new adventure (or being held up at gunpoint, I haven't decided! smiley)

    Again, keep what you're doing. I think you're on the right track with the tools you're already using.

    Post edited by Tobor on
  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,179
    edited March 2017
    Tobor said:

    All the fuss about Iray -- it's a photorealistic renderer, so is it needed for non photorealistic art? Even major animated movies don't use the type of PBR that Iray is -- they actually use something much closer to 3Delight (Renderman).

    Head Wax, I'd say you have a winning ticket with your Carrara workflow. The sample you posted is worthy of commercial illustration in a children's book (IMO).  The lines might be a little thick for my tastes (those are always hard to get just right), but Mister Mouse looks like he's ready for a new adventure (or being held up at gunpoint, I haven't decided! smiley)

    Again, keep what you're doing. I think you're on the right track with the tools you're already using.

    Thank you Tobor! That's very kind. Yes Carrara is good, It gives the user a lot of choices out of the box. Most Carrara users go for the photo realistic look so (I think) haven't explored its potentials in this NPR direction. 

     

    Post edited by Headwax on
  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,179
    edited March 2017

    Aanother Carrara render. This image has extensive postwork, but the good thing  about Carrara is that, straight out of the box, Carrara will give you a lot of different passes to play with. Plus it has an inbuilt toon renderer you can also combine with these passes in post.Plus it has an NPR renderer which really does need a bit more love from its users - ie exploration.

    It also has a hair tool which gives reasonable NPR fur. You can also render this out as a different pass.

    The passes I have used in this are diffuse, colour, coverage, shadow, beauty, index , primitive volume (for isolating hair) plus some others. The coverage layer gives object lines, but allows isolation of image elements for your post work, (as does the object pass - which gives more choice in masking for postwork) You can treat each pass eg shadow pass differently in post work and once combined in layers you have much more leeway than just trying to work with the beauty pass.

    I've upped the saturation to get more of that old fashioned kid's book feel - I hope that works? The Character is Housemouse dressed up in some banged together clothes. Carrara is around 45 bucks at the moment (?) for pc members.

    edit - forgot to erase the transmap outline of his whiskers ;)


     

     

     

     

     

     

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  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,024

    Dawww Cute mouse! :D It's funny to see the small cat following him. Poor cat - bet he's REALLY confused. lol

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,179
    edited March 2017

    Dawww Cute mouse! :D It's funny to see the small cat following him. Poor cat - bet he's REALLY confused. lol

    thanks divamakeup :) it was for a book idea I was playing with a few years ago, found the scene on my hardrive the other day and decided to use some of the postwork things I had learnt in the meantime - wasn't sure about the storyline (too trite) so I never pursued it ... well not yet. :) 

     

     

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  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,503

    Head Wax: I love the look and style. ;)

    Here's some experimentation with Iray Sketchy shaders.

    I'm not entirely happy with how thin the lining gets around the axe and shield (forcing me to change the style a little); I suspect in more robust renders I'm going to have to take the time to do a LineRender9000 pass to firm up some of the outlines.

     

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  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,179

    Head Wax: I love the look and style. ;)

    Here's some experimentation with Iray Sketchy shaders.

    I'm not entirely happy with how thin the lining gets around the axe and shield (forcing me to change the style a little); I suspect in more robust renders I'm going to have to take the time to do a LineRender9000 pass to firm up some of the outlines.

     

    Thank you, I have been enjoying your renders immensely and appreciate how you have shared the different results - your image of the turtle on the rock worked in pwToon convinced me to buy it :)

     

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,503

    Heh, great! PWToon is one of my favorite products. While I'm enjoying Iray Sketchy, there are still certain things that I can only easily do with PWToon still.

     

  • MusclemanMuscleman Posts: 2,753

    Here's the output (6 of the styles) for an old scene run through the current algos (one of a batch of 12 scenes rendered overnight): 

    This scene is a good, challenging test to judge separation. I still love me some Noodles!

    - Greg

    Really love all these images!!! How do you do that? That' work on 3DL or Iray? Btw, great, great, work!

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,503

    Ooo, happier with this version.

    Used a light grayscale, sent it to FilterForge and crosshatch filter.

    Then also used LineRender9000 to get strong outlines and other line detail (main camera + fresnel reflected)

     

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  • ToborTobor Posts: 2,300
    head wax said:

    Aanother Carrara render.

    The line weights are just about perfect on this. Great job, even better than the first one! The extra saturation looks natural, yet it still has a calming pastel look.

     

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,179

    Ooo, happier with this version.

    Used a light grayscale, sent it to FilterForge and crosshatch filter.

    Then also used LineRender9000 to get strong outlines and other line detail (main camera + fresnel reflected)

     

    That looks much better!!

     

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,179
    Tobor said:
    head wax said:

    Aanother Carrara render.

    The line weights are just about perfect on this. Great job, even better than the first one! The extra saturation looks natural, yet it still has a calming pastel look.

     

    Thank you Tobor. I took your advice on the line weights - thanks for that c and c!

     

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,179

    Here's a few renders using Carrara built in Toon1Part111 - you can render this with no lights at all! Very fast :) 

    The small images at the bottom : one has no lights, one has a very bright bulb in the centre of the scene.

    The larger  two are post worked combinations of render passes combined with  the Toon1Part111 renders.

     An image of the Toon1Pro111 render settings is also attached at the bottom.

    The subject is  one small part of TangoAlpha's excellent new product.

     

     

     

     

     

             

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,379
    Muscleman said:

    Here's the output (6 of the styles) for an old scene run through the current algos (one of a batch of 12 scenes rendered overnight): 

    This scene is a good, challenging test to judge separation. I still love me some Noodles!

    - Greg

    Really love all these images!!! How do you do that? That' work on 3DL or Iray? Btw, great, great, work!

    Glad you enjoyed the images,Muscleman. Thanks for taking the time to check them out and comment - it's much appreciated.

    It's a 2-step process, which begins with rendering analysis passes in 3DL. There's a bunch of info about the process sprinkled throughout this thread, and my other NPR thread. It's a lot to go through, but if you start with the brief overview in the post linked below, and look at the links in the previous message it was in response to, you won't have to dig through the entire thread:

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/2231096/#Comment_2231096

    - Greg

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,379
    edited March 2017
    head wax said:

    vey interesting thread!

    this is something done with Carrara combining multi pass renders - eg coverage, index, diffuse etc  - worked up in fotosketcher, painter 2017 and oloneo for fine tuning

    Question: what multipass renders does studio do out of the box,? (thanks for any answers)

    eg in Carrara if you  render out an index pass then each object is clearly delineated with a different grey - so you can select objects easily in  post

     

     

    Fantastic image, head wax. It's got a strong children's book illustration vibe to it, which is great. Here comes Peter Cottontail, hoopin' down the bunny trail . . .

    - Greg

    ETA: In my case, the analysis passes, while not "out of the box", were rendered with a single click in Studio via script.

    Post edited by algovincian on
  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 6,667
    edited March 2017

    How did you get into Toon render mode in Carrara - I could not find it.

    Never mind - found it - it is under "Scene" "Filters"

     

     

    Post edited by Artini on
  • ToborTobor Posts: 2,300
    head wax said:

    Thank you Tobor. I took your advice on the line weights - thanks for that c and c!

    You're welcome. For this type of illustration, outlines tend to be the most obvious "tell" that an image was processed by a filter. While comics and similar styles make use of outlines, paintings almost never do. Of course it all depends on your goals. If your goal was to render and process a 3D image and make it look like a hand-drawn illustration, you've succeeded. I think your second example particularly is one of the best examples of this I've seen anywhere.

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