How to get more realistic Daz Characters vs best in the world

Just putting out there why I think Daz Characters while they are the most fantastic widely available character assets aren't quite up to the worlds best, Death Stranding Daryl on the left is almost better than the real one on the right except I would have used more metalic shading as you can see the real one has more metalness in the skin correctly. The Daz below is pretty much what all Daz characters do and I think it is not up to the Death Stranding Daryl for only one reason, the skin pigmentation and color is too consistent in the Daz characters vs the world's best like the Death Stranding Daryl. I expect disagreement but it is what most people in the gaming and art world think. I hope the artists at Daz can take this the right way as their assets are excellent and would like them to go the best in the world level! May be an image of 3 people and text

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Comments

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 11,115

    LOL, the assets you post are made specifically for their purpose in that specific engine with that specific lighting which means it will look the same no matter the user. That is not the case with Daz Studio and it's many users, especially if they export to other render engines.

  • ARealitiARealiti Posts: 88

    FSMCDesigns said:

    LOL, the assets you post are made specifically for their purpose in that specific engine with that specific lighting which means it will look the same no matter the user. That is not the case with Daz Studio and it's many users, especially if they export to other render engines.

    It's interestin isn't it Daz are now partering with 3D.sk to give discounts to Daz artists to try to help artists make more realistic skins. Again I'm stressing Daz are great characters, but unfortunately, the render I showed is the official Daz product render, can you do one for me and show me any rendering engine or promo render for any Daz character that has the skin pigmenation realism of the one Daryl render, anything any engine and promo any image. I can do slightly better for this and other Daz products in other render engines (I've tried about 5) but not to the level shown for Daryl character because the texture is not as complex, the shader is fine and the lighting is fine, you just can't get that level, if you could I'd like to see it on a Daz character in any engine or any promo as none on the store show the level of Daryl in any promo render for Daz characters,  that said they're great characters just need to take the textures to the next level. It's just constructive information I hope it can help the future of the character renders as per 

  • NylonGirlNylonGirl Posts: 937

    I think it helps to use an HDRI for the lighting. I know people have said HDRI is a problem because it's hard to get the contrast of the character to match the contrast of the background, and sometimes the character seems to have more sharpness than the background. But lots of people seem to think lighting is one of the main issues for realism, and HDRI seems to solve that problem better than anything else, at least for me.

  • ARealitiARealiti Posts: 88

    NylonGirl said:

    I think it helps to use an HDRI for the lighting. I know people have said HDRI is a problem because it's hard to get the contrast of the character to match the contrast of the background, and sometimes the character seems to have more sharpness than the background. But lots of people seem to think lighting is one of the main issues for realism, and HDRI seems to solve that problem better than anything else, at least for me.

    Hi, thanks for your comment, yes agreed lighting is a really big issue and many lights of spot type in HD pipeline lighting and as you say environmental lighting like HDRI in any rendering engine are going to end up with a better result in most cases, and there are many other big issues like the quality of shader / shader graph the maps that are used with these, but in the end after everything else to me it seems to be very dependent on the quality of the base textures for that final move to realism and super realism (which I just made up to describe better looking than real) like the Daryl almost achieves. In my experience and what I've seen of renders from everyone else including Daz promos themselves it just can't go to the Daryl level without a next level move in textures, interesting Daz are partnering with 3D.sk to give deals to artists to move that way. Thank you and have a great creating day.

  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 1,743

    1)You are late to the party, but I'm glad to see you here  :)

    2)I'm really not seeing the big difference.

    Death Stranding Daryl's green tinted skin and beard hair, the normal maps, and the painted on "used" look they did for his skin just seems off, but that's all up to person preference.

    Still just another video game trailer video skin to my eyes.

    Not sure if this is a video game or a movie. I don't keep up with either and haven't for probably 25 years now. For reference, the last movie I went to was Tombstone with Val Kilmer as Doc Holiday.

    I too want to someday have realism in Daz Studio that is indiscernible from reality. I've seen some very talented artists come very close using DS and post work.Much much closer than Death Stranding Daryl.

    This has been discussed before at great length. What you are asking for is essentially the holy grail of 3D character rendering for those that want photo realism. So far, Percival hasn't returned to the castle :(

    Here is a thread with alot of tech discussion plenty of math and many renders.

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/313401/iray-photorealism/p1

    It's a few yeas old now, and several iray versions ago, but the principles still apply.

    Here's one of note

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/5743876/#Comment_5743876

    There are many more in that thread though.

     

    For the record.

    I don't know of any company that can provide a general purpose 3D character that looks photoreal in ever render in every lighting setup.

     

    the three most important things to great images are

    1)Lighting

    2)Lighting

    and

    3)Lighting

  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 5,533

    IceCrMn said:

    the three most important things to great images are

    1)Lighting

    2)Lighting

    and

    3)Lighting

    Yeah, but what about Lighting?... not to mention Lighting or Lighting.

  • Dain looks better than 3dDaryl to me.

    You want a blotchy skin on Dain? Just make the diffuse more blotchy.

    You see the realism with 3dDaryl because Daryl exists as a real figure, but I don't think the 3D version is that realistic compared to Daz models. There are better 3D models than 3dDaryl, though.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 32,793

    Obviously you never saw this person's render of a DAZ Character .....and how, the answer is Blender

    https://blenderartists.org/t/newest-photoreal-renders/1290285

  • ARealitiARealiti Posts: 88

    WendyLuvsCatz said:

    Obviously you never saw this person's render of a DAZ Character .....and how, the answer is Blender

    https://blenderartists.org/t/newest-photoreal-renders/1290285

    Yes very good, that's exaclty the point the hair looks bad, but the photo realistic textures that are the posters own "custom" not Daz asset textures are what make it look so good, I'm sure Daz artists can create similar texture assets. Thanks for the share and have a good creative day! 

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 37,849

    ....just not nto having to convert materials, partcularly in a complicated scene.  Don't do much in the  way of portraits and closeups anyway.

  • CHWTCHWT Posts: 691
    edited January 2
    ARealiti said:

    WendyLuvsCatz said:

    Obviously you never saw this person's render of a DAZ Character .....and how, the answer is Blender

    https://blenderartists.org/t/newest-photoreal-renders/1290285

    Yes very good, that's exaclty the point the hair looks bad, but the photo realistic textures that are the posters own "custom" not Daz asset textures are what make it look so good, I'm sure Daz artists can create similar texture assets. Thanks for the share and have a good creative day! 

    May I introduce Dale to you https://www.daz3d.com/dale-for-genesis-3-male

    Not a Daz Original, but Dale is one of the hidden gems in this store.

    For hair, it makes or breaks realism. You might need to tweak the shaders and I recommend https://www.daz3d.com/uht2-ultimate-color . You can try dforce hair too if you need more versatility.

    And I agree that lighting is very important. If you can find a set of HDRIs which makes your render realistic, use them whenever you can. I like https://www.daz3d.com/flippednormals-studio-hdris , they are a bit expensive but worth every penny. You can also search for free HDRIs at PolyHaven, some of them really gives frighteningly realistic results if you use them as background also.

    It should be noted that Daz Original figures have their own art direction, just like every artist has his/her own preferences. Have fun and search in the store for treasures.

    Edit to add: j cade's excellent render of Michael 8.1 at https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/468641/michael-8-1/p8 , just scroll down a bit to see. This is exactly an excellent example of the artist's power to make a render you almost can't tell it's CG

    Post edited by CHWT on
  • Since the OP uses Daryl (Norman Reedus) as a reference point, it's only fair to the discussion to include the "Daryl" character available in the DAZ store:

    https://www.daz3d.com/willis-hd-for-genesis-3-male

     

     

     

  • CHWTCHWT Posts: 691
    edited January 2

    Since the OP uses Daryl (Norman Reedus) as a reference point, it's only fair to the discussion to include the "Daryl" character available in the DAZ store:

    https://www.daz3d.com/willis-hd-for-genesis-3-male

     

     

     

    Yes, Willis immediately came to my mind when I saw the OP's attached picture.
    Post edited by CHWT on
  • MendomanMendoman Posts: 368

    Hmmm, maybe OP has a point, that most Daz skins are lacking a bit on skin color variations and maybe are looking a bit too "perfect". Personally I don't mind, since we have for example Skin builder products where we can add moles/blotches/acne and other imperfections if wanted. At least I prefer it that way...

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 37,849

    ...I use Skin Builder almost exclusively for my female characters.  Sad there is not a version for males.  The best I can find is Amazing Skins which is a collection of presets but even the lightest of which is still somewhat dark.  For younger characters I resort to using Zev0's Growing Up Skins 

    It's also difficult to find fair skinned textures and there are no overlay utilities I could find to get features like freckles which is a snap with SkinBuilder.. 

  • marblemarble Posts: 6,537
    edited January 2

    Mendoman said:

    Hmmm, maybe OP has a point, that most Daz skins are lacking a bit on skin color variations and maybe are looking a bit too "perfect". Personally I don't mind, since we have for example Skin builder products where we can add moles/blotches/acne and other imperfections if wanted. At least I prefer it that way...

    Skin Builder is quite expensive though. I also think the OP has a point although some PAs make an effort to provide more realism with the skins. I tend to drop the translucency quite often but that doesn't give me the variation. Some of the DAZ promos look like figures with vinyl skins. 

    Just for comparison from the art world, look how Lucian Freud uses colours for his skins.

    Lucian-Freud-Head-of-a-Boy-Unframed-768x756.jpg
    768 x 756 - 126K
    Post edited by marble on
  • DandeneDandene Posts: 121

    The lack of skin color variations is one thing I started to notice a few months ago.  I realized that there were a lot of little details that I rarely see in skin textures (at least, from the products I've purchased).  Things like skin discoloration around the mouth.  I didn't even realize it was a thing until I was watching tv and a woman being interviewed had a yellow discoloration around her mouth.  I thought it was odd, until I realized I had it too.  It made me pay attention more to how skin is so different from person to person.  That there are lots of little details.  My brother's skin is different from mine.  He has little white blotches  on his skin.  They're especially prominent when he's angry hehe. 

    I'd love to see more variation in the skin textures.  Things like blackheads, some skin discoloration, scars (chicken pox scars are some I think I rarely see and yet I know so many people with them), pimples, etc.  I'm definitely going to check out Skin Builder.  It's been on my list for a while, 

     

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 37,849

    ...the one caveat with Sing Builder is it only works with female characters. There's supposedly a way t o get it to work on male characters that involves using the UV Swap utility but somehow getting it transferred over to the male character.is another matter.

  • If you're looking for interesting skin, my favorite is https://www.daz3d.com/rhys-for-genesis-3-male 

    He's a dermatologist's dream.

  • CHWTCHWT Posts: 691

    If you're looking for interesting skin, my favorite is https://www.daz3d.com/rhys-for-genesis-3-male 

    He's a dermatologist's dream.

    Saiyaness' characters are always interesting. Some of them are among the most realistic ones in this store. I love Dale as mentioned before
  • MendomanMendoman Posts: 368

    Dandene said:

    The lack of skin color variations is one thing I started to notice a few months ago.  I realized that there were a lot of little details that I rarely see in skin textures (at least, from the products I've purchased).  Things like skin discoloration around the mouth.  I didn't even realize it was a thing until I was watching tv and a woman being interviewed had a yellow discoloration around her mouth.  I thought it was odd, until I realized I had it too.  It made me pay attention more to how skin is so different from person to person.  That there are lots of little details.  My brother's skin is different from mine.  He has little white blotches  on his skin.  They're especially prominent when he's angry hehe. 

    I'd love to see more variation in the skin textures.  Things like blackheads, some skin discoloration, scars (chicken pox scars are some I think I rarely see and yet I know so many people with them), pimples, etc.  I'm definitely going to check out Skin Builder.  It's been on my list for a while, 

     

    Hehe yep, this rendering thing is such a weird hobby, and I have noticed myself also paying attention to weirdest details when I'm watching a movie or something. When there's a close up scene I often start to think like wow, are skin pores really that visible, or some nicely lit dramatic scene I'm wondering how I could do that same effect with Daz Studio or something other totally irrelevant. 

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 37,849
    edited January 5

    ...I think it ruined me.

    I would almost get into trouble at the cinema sometimes particularly when there were previews for the summer's upcoming big action blockbusters that depended heavily on CGI mixed with live action.. I'd see shadows that were off, lighting on the digital component that didn't quite mesh with the live action environment, bad particle physics, and other little mistakes and inconsistencies I and others here sweat over to avoid. Friends I'd be with would tap me on the shoulder and whisper that some people were staring. .I never spoke loudly, more like muttered quietly under my breath and shake my head at what I was seeing.

    These studios have budgets in the tens if not hundreds of millions along with teams of top notch CG artists (sometimes the list of which are the largest segment of the closing credits), and I still see things that don't look quite right.

    I don't go to the cinema much anymore, mainly because it's just become too expensive these days.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 6,741

    ARealiti said:

    Just putting out there why I think Daz Characters while they are the most fantastic widely available character assets aren't quite up to the worlds best, Death Stranding Daryl on the left is almost better than the real one on the right except I would have used more metalic shading as you can see the real one has more metalness in the skin correctly. The Daz below is pretty much what all Daz characters do and I think it is not up to the Death Stranding Daryl for only one reason, the skin pigmentation and color is too consistent in the Daz characters vs the world's best like the Death Stranding Daryl. I expect disagreement but it is what most people in the gaming and art world think. I hope the artists at Daz can take this the right way as their assets are excellent and would like them to go the best in the world level! May be an image of 3 people and text

    If you will find such character together with the scene available for the purchase, please post here.

    I have no required skills yet, to render such quality images, but I have a camera.

    When I am looking for a reality, I just take a picture with it and process it in some graphics editor.

     

  • DandeneDandene Posts: 121

    Mendoman said:

    Dandene said:

    The lack of skin color variations is one thing I started to notice a few months ago.  I realized that there were a lot of little details that I rarely see in skin textures (at least, from the products I've purchased).  Things like skin discoloration around the mouth.  I didn't even realize it was a thing until I was watching tv and a woman being interviewed had a yellow discoloration around her mouth.  I thought it was odd, until I realized I had it too.  It made me pay attention more to how skin is so different from person to person.  That there are lots of little details.  My brother's skin is different from mine.  He has little white blotches  on his skin.  They're especially prominent when he's angry hehe. 

    I'd love to see more variation in the skin textures.  Things like blackheads, some skin discoloration, scars (chicken pox scars are some I think I rarely see and yet I know so many people with them), pimples, etc.  I'm definitely going to check out Skin Builder.  It's been on my list for a while, 

     

    Hehe yep, this rendering thing is such a weird hobby, and I have noticed myself also paying attention to weirdest details when I'm watching a movie or something. When there's a close up scene I often start to think like wow, are skin pores really that visible, or some nicely lit dramatic scene I'm wondering how I could do that same effect with Daz Studio or something other totally irrelevant. 

    Oh man, that's the thing with some Daz skin textures.  Not everyone has visible pores.  Some pores are extremely visible.  Some have very smooth skin or skin that's very bumpy but the pores aren't visible unless you're right up in their face (I don't think they'll appreciate that haha).  I don't always want visible pores, so I will start to tweak maps, settings, etc.  

     

    kyoto kid said:

    ...I thing it ruined me.

    I would almost get into trouble at the cinema sometimes particularly when there were previews for the summer's upcoming big action blockbusters that depended heavily on CGI mixed with live action.. I'd see shadows that were off, lighting on the digital component that didn't quite mesh with the live action environment, bad particle physics, and other little mistakes and inconsistencies I and others here sweat over to avoid. Friends I'd be with would tap me on the shoulder and whisper that some people were staring. .I never spoke loudly, more like muttered quietly under my breath and shake my head at what I was seeing.

    These studios have budgets in the tens if not hundreds of millions along with teams of top notch CG artists (sometimes the list of which are the largest segment of the closing credits), and I still see things that don't look quite right.

    I don't go to the cinema much anymore, mainly because it's just become too expensive these days.

    That has become a terrible, terrible habit of mine.  I was watching the demo for The Matrix Awakens and thought it looked brillaint, but it wasn't that hard to distinguish which was the actor and which was the CGI.  There's always something that throws it off from being completely convincing.  

  • FauvistFauvist Posts: 1,762

    I don't want reality.  I want magic!

  • FauvistFauvist Posts: 1,762

    To answer your question about getting DAZ figures to look like the BEST IN THE WORLD.  The answer is in your question.  You hire a team of professional 3D content creators who are the best in the world, and you pay them a fee that is the best (highest) in the world.  And you give them computers and software that are the best in the world.  You back them up with a team of the highest paid best in the world art directors and consultants.  You give them a state-of-the-art best in the world studio that has the best in the world motion capture paraphenalia and hire the best in the world actors and models to base your characters on.  Then you get the best in the world post-production specialists to give them that best in the world finishing touch.  Then you get the best in the world lighting designers, animators, and place them in the best in the world 3D environments.  It's simple.

  • cridgitcridgit Posts: 1,691
    edited May 1

    Redacted

    Post edited by cridgit on
  • Catherine3678abCatherine3678ab Posts: 5,624

    cridgit said:

    Fauvist said:

    To answer your question about getting DAZ figures to look like the BEST IN THE WORLD.  The answer is in your question.  You hire a team of professional 3D content creators who are the best in the world, and you pay them a fee that is the best (highest) in the world.  And you give them computers and software that are the best in the world.  You back them up with a team of the highest paid best in the world art directors and consultants.  You give them a state-of-the-art best in the world studio that has the best in the world motion capture paraphenalia and hire the best in the world actors and models to base your characters on.  Then you get the best in the world post-production specialists to give them that best in the world finishing touch.  Then you get the best in the world lighting designers, animators, and place them in the best in the world 3D environments.  It's simple.

    This has to be one of the top comments I've seen since joining the forum 10+ years ago.

    yes 

    Yes, and expect the price to be a little higher than $2.99 or so ;-)

  • CHWTCHWT Posts: 691
    edited January 5

    Everyone has his/her own definition of what is the best at a particular time point. If you have found what you consider to be the best at this moment then good for you. You might want other things later though.

    OT, in a Japanese drama broadcast in 2005 titled Jyoou no Kyoushitsu (Queen's Classroom) the main character aka the monstrous teacher always mocked her students by saying that only a few percent of the entire population on this planet led a blissful life. At the end of the drama the students realized whether one led a blissful life depended on his/her definition of 'bliss'.

    Post edited by CHWT on
  • marblemarble Posts: 6,537

    cridgit said:

    Fauvist said:

    To answer your question about getting DAZ figures to look like the BEST IN THE WORLD.  The answer is in your question.  You hire a team of professional 3D content creators who are the best in the world, and you pay them a fee that is the best (highest) in the world.  And you give them computers and software that are the best in the world.  You back them up with a team of the highest paid best in the world art directors and consultants.  You give them a state-of-the-art best in the world studio that has the best in the world motion capture paraphenalia and hire the best in the world actors and models to base your characters on.  Then you get the best in the world post-production specialists to give them that best in the world finishing touch.  Then you get the best in the world lighting designers, animators, and place them in the best in the world 3D environments.  It's simple.

    This has to be one of the top comments I've seen since joining the forum 10+ years ago.

    yes 

     

    I dunno - seems like stating the obvious to me (if you want to take the OP literally, that is). I think that the point was valid that skins, for example, could be improved with a little extra effort on the part of the PA and/or DAZ themselves. There are utilities like those mentioned from Zev0 and also there are the Altern8 skin shader tools, etc. I'm not a skilled 3D artist so I probably wouldn't make the best of those tools even if I could afford them all but I'm sure that some of the PAs could come up with something of a high quality. 

    I rarely buy DAZ characters because I don't like the skins - so those few that I do have are never rendered with the included skin. I use a Bluejaunte skin or similar and tweak the surface settings - sometimes for hours.

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