Male Clothing Content Dead?

Torquinox

I don't think there is an easy solution to the problem. I think the erotica and pron argument only goes so far here. Other sites whose names begin with "render" push much further in that direction. If one said stylized sci-fi and fantasy, I would agree strongly. It's overstated to say there should be no males in the store. I don't see production of male items being subsidized differently than other items. But I have no influence over that. And layered clothing is frequently difficult to use. I've taken to using geoshells to keep the layers properly separated. That gets old!

 

I think what PA people are saying is, they have tried making some male-specific products and it didn't go well compared to female-specific products. I can understand that. Solving that might require reasonably skilled people who are making the stuff because they want it themselves and are willing to put it in a store to see if others feel the same way. The market will answer that. Some people make interesting items and choose not to make it available. Among those who do make items available, I get the sense that folks don't make much money doing that. Again, it's understandable that they would not do more male-priented products in the marketplace.

 

There are some outfits that are marketed as both male and female. They appear to use exactly the same mesh. I'm not fond of paying twice for the same exact outfit, but I understand that rigging twice is a lot of extra work. It's possible there are changes made to those items to accommodate male and female. I'm not solving anything, but that's my 2 cents.

Mada

Cris Palomino said:

The problem I see is that I see the clamor for male clothing, but not the follow-through. If, when male clothing appears, it was purchased in large enough numbers you would see more made. Often though, I see a lot of complaints about one or more aspects of the clothing and also see people talk about, well I'm wishlisting it till it's on sale for 98% discount (exaggerated, yes, but you know what I mean). Artists can't make a living off of promises to "buy if you'll make it" b/c too often, it hasn't been true or enough people really there to make the numbers make a difference. Even the group here recognizes you're a small faction. No, you can't but every piece of male clothing that comes out. I buy what suits my aesthetic. But that runs purchase percentages down even further and as they're generally bought in smaller numbers compared to female clothing in the first place, it really makes it difficult to justify the time investment on the artists' part. I don't see Patreon working as most of us come here, and share our profits with Daz, b/c we don't have to deal with the headache of advertising and, most,of all, customer service. Not everyone is comfortable interfacing with their customers/patrons, and Patreon really thrives for those that are interacting. That interaction is time intensive and takes away from actual work time. Even people who like to engage have spoken about how you can be worn thin. So all in all, it's a dilemma.

One person said that they guess they have to make their own. 1) many artists are born when the desire to have something, that is not available, prompts them to learn to make it themselves. 2) some will make only for themselves. 3) some will learn how hard it can be, not to make the clothing, but to make it work with a poseable figure. 4) some will learn how extra hard it is to make clothing for not just a poseable, but also morphable figures. And some will come away with an appreciation for those making clothing at all, and/or become successful themselves.

Excellent points Cris :)

I'm going to point out that Daz is already doing something to get more male content - if they did not comission me to make all the male outfits I did over the last couple of years I would not have made them in the first place. The risk of making a male clothing item that doesn't sell for whatever reason is too high if you're doing full time content like I am.

Daz said OK we'll pay you and take on the risk so that we can get some male content in the store, same with the other male outfits that's DOs. I also know from the couple of male outfits that I did take the risk on that the follow-through is not there... lots of people posting oh we'll buy it, give us male content! - and then going oh we don't need that right now/its not the genre I want/that's not what I wanted, meh - too expensive. Why should anyone take that risk if it means that you work for pennies per hour? Is anyone here going to work saying OK we'll work for $2 an hour because our customers want this thing in your jobs? Why should the PAs then do that?

Its thanks to Daz taking on the risk that there is male content in the store at all but they're still getting flak from all sides about male content. They're already spending CONSIDERABLE amounts for every male release to get male clothing in the store.

starionwolf

i just realized that I don't have many hair products for males.  I only have the basic Armani hair for Genesis3 males.

Serene Night

I buy most of the male content in the store. So, there you are.. I also use it. 

Daz store and I are increasingly diverging though, as quality of mens content has dipped, and their investment is lacking. 

Oh well. I am simply tired of it all which is why I come here less.
 

 

Mada

Serene Night said:

I buy most of the male content in the store. So, there you are.. I also use it. 

Daz store and I are increasingly diverging though, as quality of mens content has dipped, and their investment is lacking. 

Oh well. I am simply tired of it all which is why I come here less.

I know you do - I love the images you make with them too :) thank you

Torquinox

I've heard forum people don't make up much of the whole market. If sales of male items remain low, that indicates maybe the whole market for male items is smaller than people on the forum think. Since Daz is already priming the pump to make sure there are male items, that's unfortunate.

jjmainor

Cris Palomino said:

 If, when male clothing appears, it was purchased in large enough numbers you would see more made. Often though, I see a lot of complaints about one or more aspects of the clothing and also see people talk about, well I'm wishlisting it till it's on sale for 98% discount (exaggerated, yes, but you know what I mean).

For this one, you have to blame Daz for conditioning us to wait for a better price.  If we don't need something right away, we know a better price than the opening offer will come eventually.  When sales used to stack like crazy, we learned not to jump on a sale on day one unless it stacked well with the oldest sale in the carousel. This year, it seemed like they took the PCFAD out of the PC sale and ran it every week or every other week.  The store put it in our heads that if we don't need something right away, we should wait until it ends up at $1.99.  Just like the PAs are telling us they're doing what's in their financial best interest, so too are the customers.

xyer0

MelissaGT said:

Chumly said:

Hmmm....
Could DAZ itself incentivise PA's making Male stuff?

Back in the day, Ladies Night at the local club meant women got in free and had reduced drink prices.  The result was that a crap ton of men came too, paying full price because they "knew" the women would be there.

Could DAZ incentivise the making of Male stuff by giving the PA's a "larger cut" or larger return on Male Stuff sold?

Also, and I have posted this idea before but it gets shot down almost out of hand....

I think some PAs are missing an opportunity by not going the PATREON route in addition their DAZ/RENDO/R'Otica/etc etc stores.

Yes, the PA maybe working on their umpteenth Flowing Sexy Dress for a DAZ shop sale, but via PATREON, you can connect to your audience directly.  I would have no problem supporting some of my fav's at 5 Quid a month.  Communicate and let us feel we are part of your support team and I'd bet good things would happen. 
All those things you have been working on that might not be ready for Daz Prime Time (or NSFW) could be given out as supprot freebies
 

Given the skill level and time requirement for making super detailed clothing, I'd go out on a limb and say that $5/mo isn't enough of an incentive to make it worth a creator's time. Yes, multiple memberships multiplied by $5/mo adds up, but if the clothing item (in the store) should/would cost around $25 or $30 (or more, depending on level of complexity), how could I expect it to be given to me for only $5/mo? Heck, there's someone on Patreon that charges a $5/mo membership fee to download all their ripped video game models rigged up for use in Daz. 

I do like the concept of Daz incentivizing creators to create more of specific content, but others could say that's discrimination.  

I would pay Luthbel $20 a month to get three complete outfits per year, as long as one of them was contemporary. As to Cris' point about the amount of interaction required, I wouldn't give a this if he never told us anything other than what quarter the next outfit would be ready.

Pro Bundles were formerly the means by which Daz incentivized makers of quality male clothing, but dForce has pretty much ended that---unless it's a themed costume. Now we have to wait for Mada's schedule to clear up, and Daz still might not give her the type of outfit (contemporary) I needed her to make. Thankfully, she usually makes it possible to turn off the specialized pieces so it can still be everyday wear. Oops! I wrote this before I saw Mada's response.

CHWT

Decided to prioritize non DO male clothing items previously, seems that I did the right thing

Write Idea

In retail, it's called, "The Brown Suit Factor".  Everyone and their dentist WANTS a brown suit, but no one buys it/no one sells it.  What does that mean?  Black, navy, and charcoal suits are easy sells.  Navy was, up until recently, the power suit.  Politicians, businessmen, and everyone wore a navy suit cos it invoked respect and authority.  Gotta have one.  Black was considered the formal suit or the funerary suit.  It wasn't considered a power suit color until maybe the 90s, but really came into the business wardrobe in the millennium.  Gotta have one.  Charcoal was borderline fringe--kinda casual, but still a respectable color.  People who wore suits needed it for variety rather than just black, navy, black, navy, etc.  Gotta have one.  Now we get to brown.  What does a brown suit say?  Aside from my all time favorite Agatha Christie novel (yes, yes it's an easily solvable whodunit, but it's still a darn fun book to read!), not a whole lot.  Brown suits are really for fashionistos; and that's not a large and/or dependable demographic in men's retail.  As the workforce becomes more casual, the need for a brown suit lessens overtime.

As another poster stated, if a retail provider is going to invest in higher quality mens products, not only do they have to look at how it sells, but if it sells well.  It just doesn't make any sense to invest time, and possibly waste profitability, in something that doesn't do as well as other products. "Time, like latinum, is a highly limited commodity" - unknown Ferengi Rule of Acquisition.  And trust me, my content library is a 70/30 split in favor of male content over female content.  So I want good mens content, but I just know I'm not in the selected demographic.

What would be a gold mine opportunity for PAs is to create a Nordstrom-type 3D retail for this type of customer.  Not just mens, but high quality stuff in general.  Maybe on-par with KitBash3D.  From what I've seen, they have highly detailed merchandise that rarely goes on sale (maybe a BOGO here and there/or a 50% off sale--which is BOGO).  DAZ3D customers know their sales, so of course we are going to wait around for a better sale, unless we really need/want it.

Cris Palomino

jjmainor said:

Cris Palomino said:

 If, when male clothing appears, it was purchased in large enough numbers you would see more made. Often though, I see a lot of complaints about one or more aspects of the clothing and also see people talk about, well I'm wishlisting it till it's on sale for 98% discount (exaggerated, yes, but you know what I mean).

For this one, you have to blame Daz for conditioning us to wait for a better price.  If we don't need something right away, we know a better price than the opening offer will come eventually.  When sales used to stack like crazy, we learned not to jump on a sale on day one unless it stacked well with the oldest sale in the carousel. This year, it seemed like they took the PCFAD out of the PC sale and ran it every week or every other week.  The store put it in our heads that if we don't need something right away, we should wait until it ends up at $1.99.  Just like the PAs are telling us they're doing what's in their financial best interest, so too are the customers.

True, but if the point is to create impetus for PAs to make more male clothing, waiting for sales kinda defeats that purpose and further drives the lack of male clothes. Two-edged sword. 

Ascania

With today's Discord Deal on clothing I took the opportunity of looking at what I might want and what I already have. And I didn't buy any male clothing. Why? I've got roundabout five contemporary outfit sets for Genesis 8 Male (and for older figures the number lies in a similar range) and with those sets I can cover 99% of my usage cases. There are some more in the store I want to pick up at one point but they fall into: Variations on what I already have - not a priority, as I'm already covered there; Specialty cases - not a priority, I've no intention of rendering anything they would be useful for any time soon.

And that's it. Tight trousers, loose trousers, business trousers, shorts, a set of undershort that I long ago retextured to serve as cossie too and a kilt. As far as I'm concerned I'm covered for my needs.

richardandtracy

In reality, males often have a much smaller wardrobe range than females, too. My wardrobe is one third the volume of my wife's. And it's not exactly rammed, while my wife's is absolutely bulging at the seams. I feel my real wardrobe range in comparison to that of a real female is actually fairly accurately reflected in the DAZ store. I basically have two types of trousers, smart and gardening, long sleeved shirts (only work standard with breast pocket), sweatshirts and a Jacket. Pyjamas, socks, underwear and a single Gillet Jaune outdoor coat. That is literally every article of clothing I possess. All I need. Doesn't make 5 complete sets, so Ascania's males have more choice than I.

Ascania

richardandtracy said:

 Doesn't make 5 complete sets, so Ascania's males have more choice than I.

You have to remember that these sets are not for only a single male but they cover what any one different male might wear.

MimicMolly

I'm in the even tinier minority, in that I just want similar/complimentary tight and skimpy "fantasy" male outfits as females usually get. (Why do the men in fantasy either look like they're wearing overly modest shapeless clothing or "barbarian" style? Where's the sexy incubi outfits that aren't boring goth pants? I want equality.)

Seriously, I feel like my need for contemporary clothing is covered with what I've got. But I'm always on the lookout for outfits that are different. But again, I know my problem is that as artists, we don't have the same imagination or vision. And oftentimes, you gotta chuck your original vision to the side because it literally might not be worth all the effort in the end.

jjmainor

richardandtracy said:

In reality, males often have a much smaller wardrobe range than females, too. My wardrobe is one third the volume of my wife's. And it's not exactly rammed, while my wife's is absolutely bulging at the seams. I feel my real wardrobe range in comparison to that of a real female is actually fairly accurately reflected in the DAZ store. I basically have two types of trousers, smart and gardening, long sleeved shirts (only work standard with breast pocket), sweatshirts and a Jacket. Pyjamas, socks, underwear and a single Gillet Jaune outdoor coat. That is literally every article of clothing I possess. All I need. Doesn't make 5 complete sets, so Ascania's males have more choice than I.

I think what's missing from this discussion is that the value in men's clothes is not in the variety of models, but in variety of textures.  How many jeans and shirts combos do you need?  How many shorts and tank tops do you need in your library?  But if all your guys are dressed simply and plain, you want different color shirts, and shirts with different graphics.  You want jeans with different shades.

Maybe the focus should be on texture packs, and not so much on more assets.  DO outfits in the last couple years come out with a separate texture pack of 4 textures and then the asset is left on its own.  But when all your guys are relaxing in tees, 5 combined textures don't get you far.  And if the texture pack doesn't get you far, where is the value?  But what if the texture pack came with 20 textues?  10 simple recolorings, and 10 with different graphics.  Or multiple texture packs...5 seperate texture packs per outfit with 4 textures each?  Maybe you don't need to create more outfits, if you create the variety and versatility among those that exist.

Dandene

I would definitely go for more textures for exisiting models.  I often buy add-on packs for clothing sets, if they're available.  There are some outfits that if they received some new texture packs, I'd buy them in a heartbeat.  I'd love textures for some older clothing.  I don't know how that works or if doing so is even possible. 

cridgit

Redacted

xyer0

I like the more textures idea. That would instantly multiply an outfit, but I'd want Shox-Design/Luthbellina/Sade level quality for them.

starionwolf

come to think of it, I don't own many hair or poses for males either.  As for characters, I have tween Ryan and Justin for Genesis 1 and I think that is all for new characters.  I don't have much items for Michael 3 or 4 either.  I'm trying to remember if I bought anything for Ryan 7/Genesis 3 males. Maybe 1 item?  Gonna look at the items that are on sale to see if there is any male related hair or poses that I like.

MelissaGT

Mada said:

Cris Palomino said:

The problem I see is that I see the clamor for male clothing, but not the follow-through. If, when male clothing appears, it was purchased in large enough numbers you would see more made. Often though, I see a lot of complaints about one or more aspects of the clothing and also see people talk about, well I'm wishlisting it till it's on sale for 98% discount (exaggerated, yes, but you know what I mean). Artists can't make a living off of promises to "buy if you'll make it" b/c too often, it hasn't been true or enough people really there to make the numbers make a difference. Even the group here recognizes you're a small faction. No, you can't but every piece of male clothing that comes out. I buy what suits my aesthetic. But that runs purchase percentages down even further and as they're generally bought in smaller numbers compared to female clothing in the first place, it really makes it difficult to justify the time investment on the artists' part. I don't see Patreon working as most of us come here, and share our profits with Daz, b/c we don't have to deal with the headache of advertising and, most,of all, customer service. Not everyone is comfortable interfacing with their customers/patrons, and Patreon really thrives for those that are interacting. That interaction is time intensive and takes away from actual work time. Even people who like to engage have spoken about how you can be worn thin. So all in all, it's a dilemma.

One person said that they guess they have to make their own. 1) many artists are born when the desire to have something, that is not available, prompts them to learn to make it themselves. 2) some will make only for themselves. 3) some will learn how hard it can be, not to make the clothing, but to make it work with a poseable figure. 4) some will learn how extra hard it is to make clothing for not just a poseable, but also morphable figures. And some will come away with an appreciation for those making clothing at all, and/or become successful themselves.

Excellent points Cris :)

I'm going to point out that Daz is already doing something to get more male content - if they did not comission me to make all the male outfits I did over the last couple of years I would not have made them in the first place. The risk of making a male clothing item that doesn't sell for whatever reason is too high if you're doing full time content like I am.

Daz said OK we'll pay you and take on the risk so that we can get some male content in the store, same with the other male outfits that's DOs. I also know from the couple of male outfits that I did take the risk on that the follow-through is not there... lots of people posting oh we'll buy it, give us male content! - and then going oh we don't need that right now/its not the genre I want/that's not what I wanted, meh - too expensive. Why should anyone take that risk if it means that you work for pennies per hour? Is anyone here going to work saying OK we'll work for $2 an hour because our customers want this thing in your jobs? Why should the PAs then do that?

Its thanks to Daz taking on the risk that there is male content in the store at all but they're still getting flak from all sides about male content. They're already spending CONSIDERABLE amounts for every male release to get male clothing in the store.

I can tell you for sure I own most of your clothing sets...you're one of the few clothing makers that I can be comfortable buying from without worrying that it will turn to spaghetti on me with a simple pose.  

The argument about male content not selling...well...like I said...I have no qualms about buying your male content (and a couple others). But I'd say the vast majority of stuff that hits the store isn't worth my dime. That's the problem. DForce tubes with no structural detail doesn't work for me. 

kyoto kid

Cris Palomino said:

jjmainor said:

Cris Palomino said:

 If, when male clothing appears, it was purchased in large enough numbers you would see more made. Often though, I see a lot of complaints about one or more aspects of the clothing and also see people talk about, well I'm wishlisting it till it's on sale for 98% discount (exaggerated, yes, but you know what I mean).

For this one, you have to blame Daz for conditioning us to wait for a better price.  If we don't need something right away, we know a better price than the opening offer will come eventually.  When sales used to stack like crazy, we learned not to jump on a sale on day one unless it stacked well with the oldest sale in the carousel. This year, it seemed like they took the PCFAD out of the PC sale and ran it every week or every other week.  The store put it in our heads that if we don't need something right away, we should wait until it ends up at $1.99.  Just like the PAs are telling us they're doing what's in their financial best interest, so too are the customers.

True, but if the point is to create impetus for PAs to make more male clothing, waiting for sales kinda defeats that purpose and further drives the lack of male clothes. Two-edged sword. 

...there are some of us on really tight budget.  Crikey I go to a second hand shop in my neighbourhood to buy clothes (in really nice condition) where I can get couple pairs of slacks and a couple shirts for less than the price of a single pair of brand name slacks or jeans in a mainstream clothing store or even Walmart. .

Granted you can't buy second hand 3D content because of the EULA so the next best thing is waiting for sale events.

We lived in the "other side of the tracks" when I grew up and mum would frequently shop at the bargain basement at Gimbel's or the Boston Store where she could get 3 pairs of jeans or shirts for school for something like 15$ - 18$.  Meanwhile people today pay 60$ or more for a big name pair of jeans often that already come bleached out, and pre torn or shredded  Wonder what my mum would  think of that today.

kyoto kid

xyer0 said:

I like the more textures idea. That would instantly multiply an outfit, but I'd want Shox-Design/Luthbellina/Sade level quality for them.

...indeed particularly for the DO items. as often I find that much of the detail is in the actual texture file while the mesh itself has fewer material zones. For example I have a pair of running shorts that has different colour for the waistband and edging however the entire mesh has only a single UV map which makes creating you own textures somewhat pointless.

WendyLuvsCatz

Click video

I bought some nice skimp at Rendo yesterday

kyoto kid

..bust a move.

Mada

I do like the idea of more textures sets :) I aim to put in as many zones in my outifts as I can so that they can be changed up with shaders too.

kyoto kid

...thank you.

xyer0

Mada said:

I do like the idea of more textures sets :) I aim to put in as many zones in my outifts as I can so that they can be changed up with shaders too.

Thank you so much! And thanks for making it easy to hide the timbrels on your Mariachi pants, which look great for everyday. You and Luthbel clothe my leading males, plus Alt Style, Boardwalk Casual shirt, and Slide3D's Military Boots (rendo). Everything else is by you and Luthbel, other than the stuff for background men. Thanks for making your gear so well. I presumed it must be very difficult to do well, since you and Luthbel are the only ones who keep doing it, other than Luthbellina. Most everyone else tries once and quits.

Adrean

I stopped counting how many months have passed since the petition for a dress blue/white/whatevercolor uniform for the males. The answer is always "male content does not sell" so the drive to spend is even lower as there is no expectations or whatsoever. Good thing for the wallet I guess.

Btw, praise Protozoon for the exellent PRZ White Tie Outfit for Genesis 8 Male(s)

It is one of the few things that keeps me on Daz looking out for male contents that doesn't sell.

kyoto kid

...I got that as well.