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maybe an iClone thread

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  • bighbigh Posts: 8,147
    edited December 1969

    Rottenham said:
    Well, I did it. I looked through this thread, watched a couple of vids, then ran a Genesis figure through 3DX. This is the first time I got this far. There are, of course, a couple of problems.

    The trapezius muscles are out of control, I don't know what that's all about. The hands are sticking through the legs, I may have seen a fix for that, I'll need to retrace my steps to find it. The viseme morphs made it through, but don't seem to be working. The body morphs work fine, but the face morphs do not work.

    In spite of these problems, I feel a sense of triumph. I think that in time, I'll get to the bottom of these problems. Any suggestions or recommendations would be welcome.


    you have to start with a T - pose

  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited August 2014

    bigh said:

    you have to start with a T - pose

    It was exported with a T pose. The odd results occurred while using iClone motion morphs. When returned to the T pose, it looks fine.

    Post edited by his x on
  • bighbigh Posts: 8,147
    edited December 1969

    Rottenham said:
    bigh said:

    you have to start with a T - pose

    It was exported with a T pose. The odd results occurred while using iClone motion morphs. When returned to the T pose, it looks fine.

    did you test it in 3dexchange ?

  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited December 1969

    bigh said:

    did you test it in 3dexchange ?

    Sorry, I guess I wasn't very clear. This Genesis figure had one of the male shaping morphs applied in DAZ - the ones that show up under the SHAPING | MALE tab. Then it was exported from DAZ as an FBX, and opened in 3DX. There it was converted to a non-standard figure, and assigned the DAZ4 Genesis preset. Then the various poses were tested. This is where the oversize traps first appeared. I tried this with more than one of the male shaping morphs, and found that the more extreme the morph, the less faithful the result was in 3DX. In general, the translation was less than 100% accurate. Some loss of the morph definition was observed in every test.

    Then the figure was converted, and moved forward using Apply to iClone. In iClone, I tried out some of the standard Motion morphs. The result is as shown above. I was left wondering if the DAZ male shaping morphs had something to do with the weird traps.

    I performed this experiment a number of times. Hair and clothing were tested, and came through fine.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,812
    edited December 1969

    Do you have the duf facial animation preset to apply to it in studio?
    That will zero out poses as well and set it up ready to go for 3dx5 no more adjusting in convert to nonstandard needed
    You usually only need tone down highlight on textures.
    Also in studio fit the rigging to figure under edit figure rigging if it has had any scaling done on body parts as some morphs do.

  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited December 1969

    wendy♥catz said:
    Do you have the duf facial animation preset to apply to it in studio?

    Ah HA! iCloneFaceKey.duf! What a difference that makes! This is just what I was looking for.

    Thanks!

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,812
    edited December 1969

    Yes a very valuable file that
    Worth the $99 price tag in many ways and not quite so bad as you do get other content with it
    While it is possible to retarget stuff without it and manually assign visemes in expression editor, and indeed nessessary for other figures and animals it really makes using genesis a no brainer!

    I am only now embracing G2F & M more now due to the work involved manually retargeting them esp fingers though I did save a t pose that sometimes works right, the notepad edit of the duf swapping Ctrl for phm helps a lot but still a bit of tweaking in expression editor needed.

  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited August 2014

    Now that I've gotten the basic 3DX import tool to work properly, I'm going to try to "bulk up" my character with morphs and clothing, and see how that goes. I'm going to avoid fooling with G2 characters for now. I could use a span of time with more accomplishments and fewer rabbit holes.

    CrazyTalk has the best automated lipsync around, and I can see that iClone has inherited that. I can also see that iClone body animation is happily lacking the "walk on heels" feature. Strictly as an animation tool, I think that iClone compares very well, favorably in some ways, to DS. Hopefully I will soon be able to actually create something.

    Thanks.

    Post edited by his x on
  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited December 1969

    My continuing 3DX adventures have been disasters, so bad I don't know where to begin.

    Meanwhile, does anybody know how to get rid of this pesky "Live Update" popup?

    Thanks.

    rl_error.jpg
    512 x 232 - 21K
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,812
    edited December 1969

    Is your AV blocking live update by any chance?
    You could try a manual update, make sure you are signed in to your Reallusion account

  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited December 1969

    wendy♥catz said:
    Is your AV blocking live update by any chance?
    You could try a manual update, make sure you are signed in to your Reallusion account

    Manual update works fine, I am up to date all around. AV (Norton) is a possibility, thanks.

  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited December 1969

    Exporting a modified figure to 3DX is not working out. Hopefully, veteran 3DX users will see why. Here's what's happening.

    FIG 1 - The FBX has been imported, but not yet converted. Looks good.
    FIG 2 - Beginning conversion brings a warning about node names. I can see there is a conflict between the hair, the shorts and the figure, but other than that I am clueless.
    FIG 3 - Another warning, more wordy, less informative.
    FIG 4 - The result of conversion, in Head Calibration. Hair and shorts are animated, figure stands still. Note the weirded out ankles.

    I will need to learn how to fix this, in order to bring in characters with hair and clothes. Where to begin?

    Fig_4_-_in_3DX_head_calibration.jpg
    534 x 455 - 23K
    Fig_3_-_in_3DX_after_conversion.jpg
    627 x 269 - 29K
    Fig_2_-_in_3DX_before_conversion.jpg
    625 x 213 - 20K
    Fig_1_-_in_3DX_not_converted.jpg
    535 x 453 - 21K
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,812
    edited December 1969

    Is all the clothes conformed/fitted?
    Usually that happens if something is not
    Also do not have the clothes parented as well to the figure
    Some things load parented, right click with them selected and pick parent none

  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited December 1969

    wendy♥catz said:
    Is all the clothes conformed/fitted?
    Usually that happens if something is not
    Also do not have the clothes parented as well to the figure
    Some things load parented, right click with them selected and pick parent none

    The clothes are all fitted to Genesis. All are parented to Genesis. I will un-parent them and see what happens.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,812
    edited December 1969

    It can interfere with the fitting in FBX
    Also does in Carrara duf import

    You can see the extra set of bones
    Also there is a setting in FBX export
    You MUST merge skeletons

  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited December 1969

    wendy♥catz said:
    It can interfere with the fitting in FBX
    Also does in Carrara duf import

    You can see the extra set of bones
    Also there is a setting in FBX export
    You MUST merge skeletons


    Wo! Did THAT make a difference! Merge Clothing into Figure Skeleton! The error messages were trying to tell me that, but they were too inscrutable. And I don't have enough time staring at the 3DX skeleton display to know what I'm seeing. The calibration motions all work fine now, and the hair and shorts behave well.

    Thanks for this!

  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited December 1969

    I thought I'd post the results of my Genesis into iClone adventure. I'm pretty happy with the way this worked out.

    Thanks for your valuable help, wendy♥catz.

    iClone_Test_22AUG14.jpg
    308 x 600 - 13K
  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited August 2014

    It's been a tough week for animation and me. First I learn DAZ characters walk on their heels. Then I learn that DAZ vendors make dresses that don't conform to the legs (!). And now, after feeling so good for having learned to bring a Genesis character into iClone, I learn they have to be either clean shaven or mutes.

    It's taken me a long time, and a lot of effort and money to find this out. I'm not a happy camper right now. I read your comment from last year, wendy♥catz:

    Reallusion might, I doubt Daz would bother, most people just do renders, the animation market not so great and as for game development, a figure with a seperate beard unlikely to be used, one would morph it all in one mesh like some iClone characters do.

    I sensed it, but I thought, no, that can't be. They market this (DAZ) as an animation tool. :-)

    I did find this:
    http://www.reallusion.com/ContentStore/ccdproduct.aspx?contentid=AIC430CIENU020120101015003
    but right now, I'm not sure just how much more time and money I will put into 3D. I was a pretty happy guy with 2D, maybe I should stay there.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83aXqH5l4nM

    Post edited by his x on
  • bighbigh Posts: 8,147
    edited December 1969

    Rottenham said:
    It's been a tough week for animation and me. First I learn DAZ characters walk on their heels. Then I learn that DAZ vendors make dresses that don't conform to the legs (!). And now, after feeling so good for having learned to bring a Genesis character into iClone, I learn they have to be either clean shaven or mutes.

    It's taken me a long time, and a lot of effort and money to find this out. I'm not a happy camper right now. I read your comment from last year, wendy♥catz:

    Reallusion might, I doubt Daz would bother, most people just do renders, the animation market not so great and as for game development, a figure with a seperate beard unlikely to be used, one would morph it all in one mesh like some iClone characters do.

    I sensed it, but I thought, no, that can't be. They market this (DAZ) as an animation tool. :-)

    I did find this:
    http://www.reallusion.com/ContentStore/ccdproduct.aspx?contentid=AIC430CIENU020120101015003
    but right now, I'm not sure just how much more time and money I will put into 3D. I was a pretty happy guy with 2D, maybe I should stay there.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83aXqH5l4nM

    the heel walk is a easy fix - used DS to set up - render done in Carrara 8.5

    http://youtu.be/scr0zXqr-g0?list=UUSDQPl5q0QoWh0fIj9dXMpg

  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited December 1969

    bigh said:
    - render done in Carrara 8.5

    Very nice work.

  • bighbigh Posts: 8,147
    edited December 1969

    Rottenham said:
    bigh said:
    - render done in Carrara 8.5

    Very nice work.

    thank you !

  • bighbigh Posts: 8,147
    edited December 1969

    links to help you work with DS models in iClone -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR9ChxwN_68

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=iclone+5+using+Daz+Studio+mode

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,812
    edited December 1969

    You can fix beards but it is not always easy.
    They need the viseme and other mouth morphs added to them then manually dialed in in DAZ timeline and expression editor
    I usually settle for mouth open closed jaw left and right and match them as best as I can to mouth movements in expression editor.

  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited December 1969

    I can fix the foot. Then I can fix the dress. Then I can fix the beard. Fix, fix, fix. I'm afraid if I spend all my time with my head under the hood, I'll forget that my original mission was to drive the car. One way or another, if I don't get good at rigging and building props, I'll never accomplish what I set out to accomplish. This is the Curse of the Still Image.

    I'm convinced that iClone is the best choice as an animation tool. The thing now is to learn to get functional models in there.

    I suppose a good place to get started would be to learn how to add viseme morphs to beards. Can this be done within DAZ? I've never added a morph to anything at all. I think I need to look into this. Any suggestions for tutorials?

    So far I have found this thread, which is overwhelming:
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/12921/

    Thanks.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,812
    edited December 1969

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jDgB5EKCmo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLcPFtJl2ww
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdUT_zVPCeE
    some of my attempts
    has worked but you will see a PITA

  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited December 1969

    wendy♥catz said:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jDgB5EKCmo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLcPFtJl2ww
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdUT_zVPCeE
    some of my attempts
    has worked but you will see a PITA

    I'm not finished watching yet, but I can see you've figured this out. full viseme fibermesh beard works very well.

    Let me start right out by asking a stupid question or two, to help me understand the problem. FBX Export Merge Clothing into Figure Skeleton merges all the bones into a single skeleton. That's why, when the arm moves with it. So, I took a look at the bones. The head has quite a few bones. The beard is missing all the bones that would be used in speech. This will sound simpleminded, but, what if we could add the missing bones to the beard figure, before exporting? Can we do this? Wouldn't this make the beard conform in DS as well? Where's the Bone Room? :-)

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,812
    edited December 1969

    most the speech is done through morphs though
    certainly a boned beard and face would work
    that is how iclone native figures are rigged
    I would hate to think of work involved rigging a DAZ figure that way though no doubt doable

  • his xhis x Posts: 866
    edited December 1969

    wendy♥catz said:
    most the speech is done through morphs though
    certainly a boned beard and face would work
    that is how iclone native figures are rigged
    I would hate to think of work involved rigging a DAZ figure that way though no doubt doable

    Perhaps my question is so stupid, it defies understanding.

    I'm thinking, people make shirts, right? They make a 3D model, then they add the bones. Then FBX Export combines the shirt bones with the Genesis bones. In 3DX, a single set of morphs acts on a single skeleton. The shirt ends up as a "shape" at the bottom of the Root Node tree.

    So, what if I was able to add the missing bones to the beard figure, so that its bone structure mirrored the bone structure beneath the Genesis head. I would think that, when it got into 3DX, the viseme morphs would then be applied to the beard shape automatically, the same way arm movements also move the shirt sleeve. Could it possibly be that simple?

    (Getting this modified beard to work in DAZ would be another, more complicated issue, I'm sure, and not relevant to this thread.)

    I've noticed a couple of rigging tutorials, I wonder if these might be of any use:
    http://www.daz3d.com/rigging-original-figures-in-ds4-pro
    http://www.daz3d.com/advanced-rigging-in-daz-studio-4-pro

    What do you think? Is this imbecilic?

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,812
    edited August 2014

    It actually comes down to how iClone 3dx5 reads the morphs or rigging on the timeline using the genesis preset as well as having movement in the beard.
    The expression editor morphs do not intact use the figures rigging and appear in a set order using that duf facial animation file 3dx5 detects and assigns them as they occur baked to the timeline.
    Any other morph movement on clothes hair and beards if done gets baked at same time
    So if you flip her fringe at the frame "CH" appears she will flip her fringe pronouncing CH etc
    Tweening also comes into play here.
    Morphs can be put into the beard using transfer utility, the Mec4D M5 fibremesh one actually has morphs already so no need on genesis.
    But it needs to be manually key framed on timeline for 3DX5
    And best done on its own in the same position as conformed to your character and the exported FBX loaded on it in expression editor as the file is so big otherwise it will crash 3DX5
    Unless you tediously match all 57 frames of the duf with each morph zeroed before and after the beard will not line up with the expressions anyway so a seperate fbx import in expression editor add tab best.
    Then you manually dial them in for each viseme, mouth movement etc.

    Post edited by WendyLuvsCatz on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,812
    edited December 1969

    There may be an easier way but I have not found it
    I used to put morphs in M4 beards for Carrara using the morphing clothes program and use mimic on them as same issue.
    DS one used morph transfer for that
    With Genesis now things auto follow more so not as nessesary but it does not FBX export unless baked to timeline.
    Is a really complex issue I myself would avoid with seprate chin mounted props and moustaches myself as is far simpler
    Those can be attached to head and jaw respectively and many textures have beards too just need a chin extension.

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