Animation in DAZ
OdinVonD
Posts: 243
Hey all
I've been playing around with animation tools in DAZ, like Puppeteer and Animate Lite, but I'm just wondering if there are better tools for the job before I pull the trigger on Animate 2 (once it's on sale again).
What are you all using these days?
Thanks
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What are you wanting to achieve? The Timeline has recentl;y had an extensive make-over, and is still being worked on, so the possibilities even with the base application have certainly grown (though there does seem to be an issue with saving soem data types).
Animate 2 is a must if you plan on using,creating or editing aniblocks, other wise you can just use the daz native time very easily for everything else you want to animate. dforce works on the daz timeline not animate2 .
I did this animation using just the daz native timeline
Best viewd at 1080 hd click to play
@Ivy Really? I find the timeline not great. At least not for editing once an animation has been set up. From what I can tell there still isn't a very good way to mass remove keyframes, but maybe I'm just behind the times on that.
So is Animate 2 really outdated then?
I'm rendering most of my animations in Octane these days. I just finished up 200 frames of a very busy high poly scene in only 2 hours in Octane, in iray it would have been 40+ hours.
I'm not worried about rendering so much as I am about actually animating character.
@Ivy and @Ricard Haseltine
Can you recommend good tutorials on how to use the Timeline effectively? It seems like most that I can find are very outdated.
Unfortunately Daz has a very bad habit of not providing documents for the software they create. I have introduction tutorial https://www.daz3d.com/daz-studio--getting-started-with-animation in the daz store. but it does not cover the advancements of the timeline new features. The daz timeline works very much the same as the old keymate and graphmate did , you can highlight and hold keyframes to drag them to new locations along the timeline. you can remove and add keyframes and make repeating cycels of the same keys , the keyframe editor allows you to edit each bone of the joint in a character or prop loaded on the timeline. plus it gives you the property window for when your using or creating a Ik-chains solution for your animation or need to edit the dforce nodes
But the biggest hurdle is know how to use the timeline ui. the tabs are not marked well, and knowing where the tools are located for editing or clearing the timeline is not always clear cut finding what you need unless you been working with daz studio a while and learned where everything is located. As I stated before Animate 2 is a wonderful timeline i use it a lot my self . its a must have if you plan on creating or working with aniblocks, it does have a lot of limits with what can be done on it. & deforce loads into the daz timeline editor and you can not edit the deforce node in Animate2 . Fludios is a water simulation plugin, that also requires the daz timeline to keyframe it properly.
The UI of the daz timeline can be very confusing and hard to understand if you have no understanding of the daz studio software.. so there is a lot of trial and error that goes with learning it.
But the daz timeline does expand into individual nodes for making & editing animation keyframes. its faster to correct mistakes, The Animate2 timeline is only good for aniblocks unless you have the graph mate or key mate companion plugins. I think most people don't like the Daz timeline is because they have no idea how to use it or understand the UI. but its actually set up like most 3d software timelines and once you start using it becomes more formilur. it just seems over whelming at first.
Here is a couple of screen shots of the differences of the animate2 timeline and the daz native timeline .
Please forgive my enthusiasm I have been using daz studio for animation a long time so I have a very good grasp of the UI
Animte2 timeline
Daz Native timelime in expanded view
with a fludios plugin click to play
Will there be alot of root locomotion( walking / running)
Do you plan on having speaking characters?
If the aniMate 2 plugin is on sale, I see no reason not to add it to your animation toolset in Daz studio.
Just be aware that some of the advanced features of aniMate2 are not compatible with the G3/G8 figure (Filtering body parts For partial motion mixing).
This is due to the plugin having been developed during the era of genesis1-2.
@Ivy
Thanks for the info. It's a lot to try to wrap my head around, especially since there's so little clear information out there. I will be trying again with the timeline and hopefully it starts to come together a bit.
@wolf359
A lot of the animation I'd be working on would be with rigged characters interacting. Walking, fighting, etc. That's one of the problems I've heard about with Animate2 but in a DAZ tutorial video from 4 years ago on Youtube they said they would have a fix for that soon. Ugh. I wasn't really thinking of speaking roles aside from sound effects like grunts.
There is many tutorials on youtube and more than a few animators on the "Animators Assemble!" thread for Daz animation WIPs, clips, and tips thread.
I work exclusively with daz studio .but on that thread I posted you will find a lot of those animators that work with a combination of software using daz content
I have done lot of humen FK/Ik movement animation and I don't use much voice acting in my videos either makes them more universal
Karate Girl animation click to play
Also check youtube for examples of Daz studio animation with Characters interacting /fighting
Finally to answer the question at the end of your first post,
I was a longtime user of Daz studio for some body & facial animation however I have moved completely over to Reallusion Iclone Pro using Daz figures converted to Iclone native avatars for animation before export to Blender for rendering.
It is the best thing available inside Daz Studio, but is unacceptably primitive by the standards of any real animation environment. If you are trying anything beyond very simple movements, you would be better off learning how to get your content out of Daz and taking advantage of the great tools that exist everywhere else, besides Daz Studio.
Daz Studio is the best character creation environment you will find. The Genesis framework is incredibly flexible and really just clever in many ways. The PAs are amazing, even before you consider how little they charge.
But an animation system it is not, and your efforts will end in frustration and wasted time.
@TheMysteryIsThePoint
Wait so I guess you would not call my stuff animations? They were completely done in daz after all . then what do you call them?
@Ivy It was not my intention to diminish anyone's work, certainly not yours; I've seen that clip before and am amazed by it.
But I also admit that the first thing that came to my mind is how much of an unnecessary pain it must have been without:
For me, personally, when I began working in Daz, it was frustrating because it didn't have any of the tools referred to in general terms in the animator's classics I was reading in order to become proficient at keyframing. I tried doing things with the tools it did have, but it took so long that I ended up keeping what I had, with no art direction, and was never satisfied with the results. I had a hard time coming to terms with the strange situation Daz Studio leaves you in: The limit is your imagination when creating the character because Daz makes everything easy, so you can really art direct and just try everything. But when it comes to animation, doing those kinds of whatifs are costly, tiring, and inspiration sucking. That's the opposite of what technology is supposed to do.
When I got my first taste of Blender just a few years ago, I can't count how many "Oh, so this is how it's supposed to be done" moments I have had, and I've already had a few even deeper epiphanies in Houdini. Daz is simply not in the same class as either, for animation. I doubt that you nor anyone else would assert that it is.
But neither is either of those in Daz Studio's class for character creation. Can we just leave it there?
I'm with TheMysteryIsThePoint here.
Regardless the animation work done w DS - the best stuff that's been done is a testimonial to the DS animator's tenacity and mastery of DS, not to DS itself - relative to its animation capabilities. DS is currently not a professional animation suite, nor is/was it ever promoted as such. I say this having spent a lot of time convincing myself otherwise. Having a capability, and being designed for it are not the same. Photoshop was designed as a photo-manipulation tool, even though many use it to draw/paint brilliant images. Sure - it can be done, and quite well sometimes.
Even for those that really like the DS tools, I don't think there's any argument that the main reason most DS animators use DS and not Maya or equiv is familiarity and cost.The pros use their high-end tools for a reason - time is money, and efficiency and well-designed interfaces (in any domain) saves time - more time than the tools cost on those kinds of projects. Not my world.
After a rather large personal investment in "the DAZ way", tools, and skills, all chosen mostly because of the aniblock/puppeteering paradigm, I'm pretty much taking my (still) relevant experience and time, and moving to alternate platforms. My own reasons why, well, they tend to be transient in here, but include issues with interface consistency, specific animation capabilities, render-time, and data-transfer compatibility issues in my workflow. Add to that my long-term realization that the animation features are virtually all Add-Ons to a system designed from the core for generating static imagery, and the resulting tool-suite I currently see in DS makes sense. The future is also pretty obvious if you project the historic development trends in a forward direction. And I can always be wrong and come back to a familiar DS home-base if I like. I'll add that Carrara is actually far more capable and consistent in virtually all of my areas of interest, but it has not been updated in years, so that's not a bus to get stuck waiting for any longer. It'll also retain value in my toolkit, but it's not a long-term option either.
There's still a place for DS for certain functions - many can be done as well in DS as anywhere, but never forget that DAZ is a content company. Their focus tends to be static renders (animation is a cultural and technical addition and/or after-thought) and they don't develop DS for income (directly). For these reasons, and simple observation of the current capabilities, dev-activity, and direction(s) of the alternative tools in this particular (me-gonna-be-pro-someday) marketplace segment, moving on makes sense to me. I'll keep an eye on DS, as the recent changes in the timeline and other animation features are interesting, but for me, they're a day-late and dollar short.
Like wolfe359, my workflow is going to be flavored with some DS, but mostly blender, iclone, and maybe unreal5 if some tests pan-out.
To those that use DS, all the power to you - and if your work is brilliant, it will be all-the-more appreciated for my knowing what it took to pull it off.
As for me, TheMysteryIsThePoint articulates and confirms my own current explorations, and for new users, paying some heed to his/her words would be time well-spent.
You can still acquire great figures and content at the DAZ store for a good value, so a win-win is still there for the taking.
cheers,
--ms
Ivy, you are the exception rather than the rule
most of the "awesome" DAZ studio animations by others I have nearly always found to involve other software like Mikumikudance BVH import, Motionbuilder or C4D upon investigation,
{Retracted}
Thanks I know mine suck
was not actually using them as an example though
certainly not dissing yours either
but
I have seen a lot of awesome stuff using DAZ content in other software
I don't think they are hand keying everything in DAZ studio like you can
hell Posermocap says it in the name!
and being brought back into DAZ studio from other mocap sources
buying aniblocks you are actually buying stuff often made in other software
Wendy I never said you animations suck . I am making generalization in comparison of other software. Its true mocaps are made with other software. I do not use many mocaps anymore,. I find custom hand keyframing give me better results most of the time.. I agree some 3d scenes require a fx software like after-effect which really has to do with post film editing in the film editor not the 3d programs rendering out the png's, the end goal of the 3d software is to render out your png series for film editing
Ivy nobody was attacking DAZ studio for itself
the original poster wants animations
and unlike you not to have to hand keyframe everything
not everyone me included can
I understood that Wendy, But its the other comments telling the Op that daz studio is not good for animation. that burns my butt.
The OP has Indicated that he plans to do animation in the action genre with characters interacting/fighting
This type of animation tends to be labor intensive in ANY program unless you have access to human mocap hardware and software to parse the captured Data.
That said ,stringing together aniblocks may be sufficient for the OP assuming he can find them in the Daz store for whatever particular Genesis figures he plans to use.( I assume G8)
However if the OP plans to manually keyframe his action scenes and he has already installed a version of Daz studio higher than 4.12.0.86, he should really search the forum and read the threads for updated info regarding the issues some have reported about Frames allegedly not being retained in saved & re-opened scene files.
The OP asked specifically "what we are all using"
I wont be upgrading beyond 4.12.0.86 As I have moved to an all Iclone Pro/Blender pipeline after I completed my Feature length film, so I can not comment on the issues that allegedly appeared in the versions after 4.12.0.86
On the Matter of IK foot/floor contact pinning in daz studio, This is an area where Daz studio Fails MISERABLY!!! compared to even poser with its vestigial all or nothing IK solver.
This opinion is based on having user poser for paid commercial animation work including a commission that resulted in my getting an IMDB film credit ,and having used Daz studio up until version 4.12.0.86
In Iclone Pro you turn on Foot contact and you have an invisible global floor plain that his impenetrable.
You can grab a foot and lift it up... and lower it with little fear of it sliding or falling through the floor, and when you get foot slide there are many tools to gloabally correct it (not frame by frame)
You can also select any prop and make it part of the floor terrain and the foot or hand will not penetrate it making it easy to have figure walk up/down ramps and place hands on tables etc,
This functionality is vital for any kind of realistic root locomotion or ANY kind weight shifting body motion such as the types that the OP of this thread is planning ( action/ fighting)
We have been told repeatedly, by Daz staff, that the new timeline /IK system is a "work in progress"
Fair enough.... it is a feature offered free in a free program that provides a tightly integrated render environment for your Daz store purchases.
But "work in progress" means it is not a complete product and until that product is complete the older ,more stable, GraphMate&keyMate plugins should have been kept available for those trying to edit their animations in Daz studio IMHO.
And then there is the matter of lipsynch
Even the basic $200 dollar version of iclone has an excellent audio based lipsynch tool along with all of the IK foot floor contact solving I have described ,as well as lip smoothing options and Phoneme editing & replacement pallet.
Daz studio's included lipsynch option requires installing a 32 bit version of the software to access ONE bloody feature(mimic)
The $60 USD 64 bit,mimic live plugin will cost you over one third the price of the base version of Iclone I described earlier, and does not natively support pre-recorded audio...and the third party "anilip2" plugin at $90 USD costs nearly half as much as the base version of Iclone .
Fair enough...You get what you pay for.
But those cost savings will be reflected in your personal labor costs ( manually fixing foot sliding etc) Or in your finished output.
That is because your the man
Well this has all been very informative, despite the unintentional heat :P
@wolf359 I'd be interested in learning a little more about the transition of DAZ assets from DAZ to iclone. Is it very labour intensive? Or are there some documents or tutorials you could point me to that would help explain that?
Thanks!
And thanks to everyone who has shared their wisdom! It's been very helpful!
I'm *not* trying to stir the pot here, but I read (and agree with) this information...
And I read and agree with this (and similar follow-on posts):
And believe they are pretty-much saying the same thing. Really.
Having to learn a variety of clever work-arounds for a tool of average quality and capability doesn't make the tool good! It makes the operator good! Compliment intended.
This discussion can obviously degrade to a 'religious' war (many such threads and their well-beaten dead-horses already exist), or more rationally, go to a style/preference discussion ("I prefer the user-interface of DS/Carrara/Poser/Blender/Iclone/XXX/etc because of X/Y/Z") which is *very* subjective, but not entirely subjective. Any professional UI designer can parse any of these platform interfaces, and objectively assess the screen-wise availability of the most oft-used resources, in the context that they are most often used, and without any 'religious' or emotional baggage, determine if interface A is more efficient than interface B in the execution of task X. Anything beyond that is a context and workflow-dependent preference and ultimately religion if pushed beyond that.
To wit - The "qwerty" keyboard we all use today was *designed* by IBM to be *less efficient* because the data-entry people were typing too fast and jammed the available keying mechanisms at the time. The Dvorak keyboard was *designed* to be completely efficient based on statistical analysis and physiological research and human observation... Obviously, our collective choice to not adopt the Dvorak keyboard hasn't stopped people from producing masterpieces and garbage both on "qwerty" keyboards, but our amazing ability to work *around* the intended inefficiencies of the "qwerty" keyboard does *not* somehow make that layout efficient. It is what it is.
DS has its place, but I wouldn't recommend it as a foundational tool for someone entering the animation field today for virtually every reason mentioned by Ivy in her lucid post. But I also wouldn't presume to tell someone who is happily using DS to good effect that doing so is a mistake or somehow flawed thinking.
To OdinVonD - best of luck finding a workflow that compliments your needs and style! Be sure and show us what you come up with, and always ask questions you may have. The 'heat' you mention is often more passion than anger, and you won't find a more helpful generous group of folks than those that frequent these forums - especially us strong-minded animators - it seems to be a trend, actually - just ask the moderators :). Join us and don't be shy.
best to all,
--ms
(edit - remove screen-shots and uneeded comment)
Carrara and iClone have paths, keyframeable attach detach, target tracking and animated textures
as well as physics and particles etc for those wanting such stuff
in addition iClone has LUA scripting which can perform tasks such as link animation to actions
there are scripts to pick up and place objects, open doors get in and out of cars etc
yes this can be all hand keyframed and rendered in DAZ studio in bits and composited
but damn it makes it easier
I only am on iC6
7 has facial mocap as well as hand and body too
@Ivy, a burned butt sounds painful, but is not a persuasive argument. As @mindsong pointed out, neither is the unassailable quality of your work, because it speaks more to you, than Daz Studio.
I may be mistaken, but I suspect that some of us are really debating in which tool we are most comfortable. That is the only way in which Daz Studio animation tools can be defended in a world that also has Blender, iClone, Maya, Motionbuilder, Houdini, and others that I've never used but are of good repute.
If anyone could cite one single Daz Studio animation tool, real or proposed a long time ago, that hasn't been in Blender, iClone, Maya, Motionbuilder, Houdini, or any other program for ages, and better implemented, this question would at least be worthy of debate. Just one... and then we can discuss its merits. But until that time, anyone who says that Daz Studio is not good for animation simply must be forgiven for saying so.
Why does EVERYTHING you write sound better conceived than EVERYTHING that I do? :) It's uncanny and its starting to give me a complex :)
My problem is that I don't yet *know* if my favorite DS features are available in the mentioned tools that I'm migrating too. I can certainly do research, but the 'brochures' all promise the world. Trying each isn't an option - not enough time or neurons left. Trusting in local expertise and the opinions of those I respect that seem to parallel my workflow and interface tolerance (e.g. Blender isn't horrible to me) is really the best tool available to me, so here I am... So I almost have to absorb these tidbits by osmosis.
Add to that the recent spike in my DS and general DAZ Inc. frustration that has me *seeking out* alternatives from the safety of my comfort zone.
I wish I had an answer to that - meaning, I wish I knew all of the tools well-enough to make the comparison and render a sound opinion. Aniblocks and Puppeteer were what slurped me into DS, and both have critical flaws that I'm weary of working around, but the ideas are still 'how I think' digital animation should be.
I'd be interested in where and how you integrate Houdini into your workflow. In the same way I know when/where to use domain-specific tools Hex and Bryce in my current DAZ-based workflow, when do you pull out Houdini in your problem-solving adventures? I am ignorant about the tool, but a rough description of its strengths and best-use would probably be enlightening to a few of us. (I think this thread is an OK place to discuss - considering the original question, right?).
cheers,
--ms
(edits: typos, subtle tweaks)