Relative poly count or burden on resources from different generations?
mavante
Posts: 734
Over in another thread in the Technical Help section, a user here said:
Dropping back to an earlier Genesis version probably won't help, unless they're very undistinguished background, because the earlier Genesis versions are generally somewhat higher poly than later ones. It does depend on what characters/morphs you have for the earlier versions, but generally, it may not help.
That was a surprise to me, and now I'm really curious about it. Does anyone know, or is there any documentation I could read about the relative poly counts of the various generations/versions of Poser and Daz fundamental figures, or generations, (or males and females, or whatever you want to call them)? I hope this is clear.
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Nope. They added polys for G2. Only a couple of thousand of them, but it was added, not subtracted. Mainly, I think the additions were in the face, but some in the body as well. I don't recall whether they added or subtracted for G3, but with G3 the male and female bases no longer have the same poly layout. They were the same before that.
G1 is *very* lowpoly for a base figure. Especially when compated with gen4 (which was very high poly indeed). I have managed scenes with up to 18 G1 figures where the most I ever managed with gen4 was 5. And usually had to drop back to 4 or even 3, and combine the scene in post.
Does "G1" mean just "Genesis"? Sorry if that's a stupid question, but Lord! these generations get confusing.
And where do the various Victorias and Michaels fit iinto these numbering systems, in terms of poly counts and computer-burden? Anybody? Anybody?
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/24257/daz-3d-human-figures-a-history/p1
This thread will tell you all about the numbering systems (it's 5 pages long, it started well before Genesis 8 was a thing) - not sure that it gives the poly counts, but it does explain the numbering system and generations. https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/24257/daz-3d-human-figures-a-history/p1
And this one has a few poly counts listed: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/64609/polygon-count-list-of-gen-4-g1-2-3
As far as burden on resources, textures have a greater impact that mesh does.
Uncontested, but I am interested in poly count in this thread.
Thanks to all for the links to the "Everything You Wanted to Know About Daz Humanoids But Previously Were Smart Enough Not to Ask" threads.
Going out now for some Back To School clothes and supplies, and to hire a tutor, so I can make it through them. (Good Lord, the lineages in Genesis—I mean the original biblical one—were easier to track!)
You get G1,2,3,8 base figures free with Daz Studio. The poly counts are shown in the information box below the Scene tab.
Fantastic! Just what I needed. Thank you very much Sevrin!
Another question, that may or may not be related(?): Can anyone tell me why I see some "character" products that say, e.g., "for Victoria 7 and Genesis 3 female," but then others will say only "for Victoria 7" or "for Genesis 3," not both?
When a character says "for Victoria 7", it means it uses the Victoria 7 shape as a base to create the character. Maybe not at 100%, but you will need the V7 shape for the character to look like in the promos.
Some character morphs are design from the genesis 3 base, whereas other character morphs, build on top of Victoria 7 which is a morph of the Genesis 3 base. To get the look of the character as seen in the promos, you need both the genesis 3 base along with the victoria 7 morph package. You can use the character without the Victoria morph, but usually the face will look different as a result.
On top of that, some of these named figures also have a slightly different UV topology from their base figure. It's generally still pretty close to the base figure, but might at times reveal some odd seams. As far as I know, this no longer happens with Genesis 8 figures and spinoffs, but I'm not sure about Genesis 2 and 3. From what I remember, some of those did have slightly different UVs.
Yeah, that was pretty clear. I was seeking to understand why some specifically say for Victoria 7 and for Genesis 3, given that Victoria 7, as pointed out above in this thread by First Bastion, is a morph of G3. The wording is ambiguous at best when both are listed. It seems to indicate—ambiguosly—that the character could be used by someone who had the G3 base, but not Victoria 7. That's why I asked. Obviously, if it says it is "for Victoria 7," then Victoria 7 would be needed. Obviously.
Thank you, First Bstion. And while I'm here: Thank you sincerely for all that you have brought to the Daz universe. I use the word "universe" advisedly, because without the amazing array of terrain and structures and buildings and skies and even the depths of outer space that you and some of the other great creators have toiled over and provided, all these marvelous 3D humanoids and animals would be floating in a grey void.
In practice, the poly count of the figure itself is only significant to the overall scene if you've got a high subdivision, and the specific generation used really doesn't matter much.
While textures are generally the main culprit when it comes to memory use, even ignoring that and looking specifically at just scene geometry... the base figures are actually fairly efficient. What adds scene geometry is when you need detailed shapes, and while HD morphs are easily capable of adding loads of tiny wrinkles to a figure, for the most part a lot of the details on human skin are small enough to be faked with bump or normal maps, so the base geometry of the figures is usually fairly smooth and doesn't need that many polygons.
On the other hand, clothing with loads of modelled seams, or hair with loads of layers and curls? These can easily exceed the geometry of the figure they're fitted to. And from experience, the generation of an asset really doesn't guarantee anything about its mesh resolution; there are loads of old Genesis assets with huge mesh resolutions, there are some Genesis 8 assets that are as light as a feather...
... on which note, neither those wings or that hair you're using are going to be light on mesh geometry. That hair has loads of layers of individual curling strands, and wings that need to model the geometry of each feather... each feather alone is going to be quite a lot, and multiply that up by hundreds of feathers.
In this case, it probably means that the figure only uses Victoria 7's body morph, not her face morph (or very little of her face morph), so while having Victoria 7 is preferred, not having Victoria 7 won't make the character look hugely different.
However, there's not exactly rock solid consistency about this.
It could mean the character includes a version using the V7 morph and one for the base figure only.
Thanks. Yes, I really don't need the angel girls to be "warts-and-all." I don't need hyperrealistic "see my pores" rendering. Even in medium close-ups, there will be animation of girls and/or camera, so excruciating details will be excruciatingly useless. I want to make the girls as efficient as possible in terms of memory/resources demands, but look pretty. I'm still not sure how to go about it, other than trying to start with reasonably low-demand characters (stay tuned), and I guess turn off any "HD" options I can.
Aye, well, there's the rub, innit? If only there were a chart showing every Daz generation/character combination from "light as a feather" to "will cause blue smoke to come out of your computer upon instancing," one could know before plunking down dollars—only to find out your intended angel is a demonic "Attack of the 50-Foot Memory Hog." But there isn't any such chart. (If anyone knows any really, really light-as-a-feather, efficient potential angels in the store, please feel free to jump right in without raising your hand.)
I really, honestly, truly got the message about the hair upthread, and am going to try a host of different coifs tomorrow. As for wings, well, without some kind of wings, the angels could be roller-derby girls, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to crush the existing wings with Scene Optimizer until they molt, or I'm going to have to find some "lighter" wings. I'm hoping the ones that come with Calliope are much kinder to memory and processor. (Where is that dad-blamed chart when you need it?)
It would be really nice if products did list their polygon count and/or intended SubD level on the product page (download size would also be appreciated), but alas, it's not to be. The problem is, while textures can be fairly easily downsized, mesh resolutions are more finicky. Decimator works okay on some things, but not everything (and it's normally exorbitantly expensive).
There's a few assets I've bought where I had to export them to Blender to create a lower polygon version and try to make them reasonably usable without hogging huge chunks of VRAM.
ok here some "extra info" about poly count,
Daz studio have a system of "subdivision", which "to make the models looks more "smooth", they making it have "fake extra polygons" in this case double, triple or quadr the "real polycount" of the stuffs and that "fake count is what is called high resolution".
is pretty normal when you are looking at a mesh poly count in the mesh info it display something like that: let's say 60000/30000, the first number means the "high resolution and the second one means the "base" or real value of the mesh, also many times when look af the scene info we see "different numbers like, total vertices, total triangles, total quad total faces, total lines, each one is to show to us a specific type of info of the scene count meshes, the one which is really the most "accurace" about the real count is the "vertice count", then aways look for the vertice count when wanting to know the "real poly count" of a scene, because it's is the most accurace of then because it's count both quad and tris the scene have( while also quad counts as tri too, because a quad in 3d means 2 tri, the vertice will count it as one singe part of the mesh in the same way it will count any "tri" which is not part of a quad also as a mesh part means which if you have let's say 10 quad and 3 tri which are alone without being part of a quad it will make a total count of 13 in the mesh.
daz genesis 8 Female character havie a base of 17.020 or as a "short way we say 17k(the k means which have a extra 000) vertices (counting both body and eyelash which are "split" into separated meshes)
daz Genesis 8 Male have a total mesh of 16.384 or around 16k( + ou -)
this "high resolution effect" while in theory is not that "problematic" in real it is really problematic because it as any other "high poly count it can "eat" your machine, at last before your start to render, specially if you don't have a "rendering machine(at last 2 really strong video cards, at last around 24+ giga memory, a very good and large ssd and hds, at last a top strong/top processor and others stuffs), well you know a really top gaming or working machine, if you have less than that like a machine with a single video card not top market 16 or less memory and others stuffs you can really suffer a lot with daz meshes and really the issue normally is not the "character itself" because normally daz characters after the "victoria 4 generation really don't have that much of "high poly count", they are around 21k to 16k poly count on the base body which while it alone it's not a issue, the issue starts when you start to add "the stuffs" like cloths, hair, eyebrows and others stuffs(i'm count/talking only the mesh side not the textures and materials side which themselfs also can "eat a lot of the machine").
while in daz some "generic normal real life cloths" normally are not really that "big deal in poly count" being around a total of from 30k to let's say in worst cases 100k, some more "fantasy" or sci-fi or "others themes" can easy go around from 300k to around 600k, which it's already being a huge number for many 3d modeling programs, it's up to the "artist" themselfs, some artists love "go high and even the "sculpt" even the most micro detail in the most high resolution possible while i'm not saying it's wrong or terrible or anything like that and really is a personall choice "that choices does have a high impact in the work", making in some cases you have to "render the character "alone" to add him/her later in the scene because the insane amount of polygons and weight of the materials/texture making impossible to "load the full scene" in a single render or it can "explode your pc.
also again the problem is not just the "cloths" but the same goes for hairs and beards, or eyebrows, specially with the new age of "fibermesh" and dforce, you can also easy get yourself with "hairs" or others stuffs being easy between 100k to up to 1 million polygons in a single hair or beard or hair body, while for eyes brows you can go from 100k to 600k.
then when loading a "single character" with all that stuffs, like a fantasy female character getting a fibermesh hair and eye brows and a fantasy armor around 300k, you can easy ending with a character above 1 million polygons just the character alone.
now comes the real big deal, take this character the fact which that 1 million" is the "base" not the high resolution" and normally everything is "loaded" in high resolution which can also means from x2 to up to x5 which based on how it's subdivided it can easy go close the "billions" in a single character, if you don't pay attention in what you are doing and ca really literally blow up your pc, even the most top machine or just crash the daz before it can proper load the character or the scene.
normally most of the "hqs" or images i see using daz are about "normal real life stuffs" making things more "easy", but when you go the fantasy scene then you must really becarefull with what you want to do and how you want to do
and about the "poly count" it's something i've be asking for "ages", because my 'area or work" with daz is heavy dependent in the poly count of the stuffs, high poly count stuffs are a "no no" for me, any character going above 120 to 150k at best vertices is a no no because it's become a really high poly character, then i've already have a lot of issues and refunds because i've ended picking a lot of "high poly stuffs" which while the renders looked beatfull when comes the "poly count" it was a nightmare for me, which would be avoided if i knew from the beginner the "poly count", nowdays the daz staff is giving a support by sending me the poly count of many stuffs which i could not find asking here, making more easy for me to know what to buy or not.
Each level of SubD quadruples the polygon count. DS uses Pixar's OpenSubDiv system, as far as I know.
Vertices counts vertices - the points which are linked (by edges) to define a polygon of any type. The counts refer to entities of the specific type listed. I'm not sure what your last sentence means - are you trying to say that ten quads plus three triangles will end up being broken down into 23 triangles?
I think you are overstating the system requirements. Also, bear in mind that DS has separate SubD level settings for renders (used by Iray) and scene (used by the preview and for xports). 3Delight doesn't care about the SubD level as it uses different settings to determne how many divisions to apply.
yeah when i was typing I was a little forgetful and in doubt about how subdivision works, yeah it quadruples the number then you go for exemple from 17 to 64 then to 256 each time you subdivid the stuff.
about the "vertices i was just explain why is better you look at "vertices" than try or even quads, because vertices is the most accurace count to know how "really dense is the mesh, because in meshs you have quads, points, tris and all the others facts which each one have they own value then the vertice is basically the 'total of that values.
i'm basing on my machine, i have a 1 tera hd, i don't have ssd
and daz is one of the few programs/games which give me some head caches when trying to play/use, not all the times but if i start to load a "heavy character" not only texture but in poly count it can be a pain because my daz start to run slow specially if i load "heavy subdivided characters like for exemple the orcs which are sub 3 or 4( 1 million poly), when i load then in the "base" it's fine but as soon you start to place then in high resolution and sub it, based on what you have in scene it can start to make the daz goes a little slow and sometimes the render take more time than normal, but since i'm only load "characters in daz and normally avoid to load "too heavy and high poly count stuffs" normally i don't have too much issues neither in preview or render but the few stuffs i have high or when i want to bake the "high resolution into the "low" resolution and need to increas the poly count then things can become a little pain when working in daz.
in the end what i wanted to means was which high poly stuffs can put a toll too in the scene in the same way textures/materials can do and becarefull when trying to "smooth" too much things because you are even if virtually increasing the poly count and it plus textures/materials can have a big impact in the final product.
for exemple this new product:
https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-death-strike-outfit-poses-and-battleaxe-for-genesis-8-females
it's really amazing and beatfull and detailed, however due to being "detailed this is "it's cost" for it:
dForce Death Strike: 656,210 - without count the weapons just the outfit (i asked to daz dev team)
this is just "his base" not the high resolution" now imagine the "high resolution", how heavy load it can be, not just for the "texture" but for the poly count, that is the sort of stuff you must be carefull when creating a scene to work.
It worth remember (presumine one has forgotten), that Victoria 4 was the base figure; with Genesis, the base figure was the default Genesis (1,2,3 amd 8), with Victoria, and every other character produced, being a derivative.
You will see on occasions, characters stating a requirement of X, which means if you don't own it the shape will vary, and in the case of earlier Genesis generations, the texture maps may not work correctly. This applies to the various Genesis generations; earlier ones (pre genesis) the requirement was actually a requirement; I am unaware of any exceptions.