Iray Sun-Sky with a Skydome: Possible or Impossible?

The title pretty much says it, but I'm hoping a real expert can settle this for me. I've read in a number of places—and I cannot identify them to save my life—that use of a skydome precludes use of the built-in Sun-Sky, in Render Settings>Environment, for lighting a scene inside that skydome.

I'm trying to light objects inside such a skydome. It's an older product that was created for 3Delight. I've applied the Uber Base to it all, and it shows up in the iRay preview just fine, but so far I cannot find any way to light the objects so the light mimics the setting "sun" that's in the image projected onto the skydome.

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  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,239
    edited February 2020
    mavante said:

    The title pretty much says it, but I'm hoping a real expert can settle this for me. I've read in a number of places—and I cannot identify them to save my life—that use of a skydome precludes use of the built-in Sun-Sky, in Render Settings>Environment, for lighting a scene inside that skydome.

    I'm trying to light objects inside such a skydome. It's an older product that was created for 3Delight. I've applied the Uber Base to it all, and it shows up in the iRay preview just fine, but so far I cannot find any way to light the objects so the light mimics the setting "sun" that's in the image projected onto the skydome.

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/56724/iray-and-skydomes  and https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/61704/tutorial-using-iray-with-3delight-skydomes

    Post edited by nemesis10 on
  • mavantemavante Posts: 734
    nemesis10 said:
    mavante said:

    The title pretty much says it, but I'm hoping a real expert can settle this for me. I've read in a number of places—and I cannot identify them to save my life—that use of a skydome precludes use of the built-in Sun-Sky, in Render Settings>Environment, for lighting a scene inside that skydome.

    I'm trying to light objects inside such a skydome. It's an older product that was created for 3Delight. I've applied the Uber Base to it all, and it shows up in the iRay preview just fine, but so far I cannot find any way to light the objects so the light mimics the setting "sun" that's in the image projected onto the skydome.

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/56724/iray-and-skydomes  and https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/61704/tutorial-using-iray-with-3delight-skydomes

    Thank you very much for these links, nemesis. I do believe the first one is the primary one I had in mind when I mentioned having read about this before, but I had no idea where it was.

    Maybe I should post this in the appropriate thread you linked to above, but the exact reason I am still unable to solve this is because when I put the skydome's image into Daz's render Environmnt Map, and set it to Infinite Dome, it looks very washed out in relation to the product's actual skydome.

    The first png attached below is the skydome for bitwelder's "Top of the World," stock out of the box. The second png is the skydome's image inserted into Render Settings>Environment>Environment Map, with the product's skydome's visibility turned off.

    Nothing I try so far can restore the saturation and contrast in the Environment Map. If I could do that, then I think I could use the iRay Sun-Sky and the sundial thingy, and make it approximate the setting (rising?) sun to light the props. So far, very frustrating.

    skydome on.png
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    skydome off.png
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  • This may not be entirely helpful as you may want that specific background but HDRI's work much better in iRay than skydomes.

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,239
    edited February 2020
    mavante said:
    nemesis10 said:
    mavante said:

    The title pretty much says it, but I'm hoping a real expert can settle this for me. I've read in a number of places—and I cannot identify them to save my life—that use of a skydome precludes use of the built-in Sun-Sky, in Render Settings>Environment, for lighting a scene inside that skydome.

    I'm trying to light objects inside such a skydome. It's an older product that was created for 3Delight. I've applied the Uber Base to it all, and it shows up in the iRay preview just fine, but so far I cannot find any way to light the objects so the light mimics the setting "sun" that's in the image projected onto the skydome.

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/56724/iray-and-skydomes  and https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/61704/tutorial-using-iray-with-3delight-skydomes

    Thank you very much for these links, nemesis. I do believe the first one is the primary one I had in mind when I mentioned having read about this before, but I had no idea where it was.

    Maybe I should post this in the appropriate thread you linked to above, but the exact reason I am still unable to solve this is because when I put the skydome's image into Daz's render Environmnt Map, and set it to Infinite Dome, it looks very washed out in relation to the product's actual skydome.

    The first png attached below is the skydome for bitwelder's "Top of the World," stock out of the box. The second png is the skydome's image inserted into Render Settings>Environment>Environment Map, with the product's skydome's visibility turned off.

    Nothing I try so far can restore the saturation and contrast in the Environment Map. If I could do that, then I think I could use the iRay Sun-Sky and the sundial thingy, and make it approximate the setting (rising?) sun to light the props. So far, very frustrating.

    1. I was actually propering an image to show something else so... 
    2. loaded a g8 male (RY Steven), added a RedzStudio hair and a Utilize outfit...
    3. loaded an HDRI on a sunny day,set the HDRI so that the scene was not visible but ground shadows would show...
    4. set the Environment Map to the jpg of Top of the World and rendered:

     

    Test.jpeg
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    Post edited by nemesis10 on
  • mavantemavante Posts: 734
    nemesis10 said:
    1. I was actually propering an image to show something else so... 
    2. loaded a g8 male (RY Steven), added a RedzStudio hair and a Utilize outfit...
    3. loaded an HDRI on a sunny day,set the HDRI so that the scene was not visible but ground shadows would show...
    4. set the Environment Map to the jpg of Top of the World and rendered:

     

    Well, you've managed to achieve pretty exactly what I have been tearing out my hair while failing to achieve it, and my hat is off to you. It's too late for me to engage in even the possibility of more hair tearing tonight, but I will try to follow your steps tomorrow after strong coffee.

    I'm attaching my latest miserable attempts to get it to work by following L'Adair's tuturial, Using a 3DL Skydome in Iray. It seems to work for some people, but I have had nothing but crashing failures trying to get anything resembling sunlight to fall on the accursed platorm and its props.

    I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but all of the objects in the scene I'm trying to get lit (in more ways than one) were designed for 3Delight, so had to have the Uber Base applied to them in order for them to show up in iRay at all. I've tried everything I know to get light onto them, including throwing a spotlight on it, with a spotlight target dead center of the columned structure, and cranking the luminance up to 100,00. No. Light. Appears. On. The. Objects. Cue "Twilight Zone" music.

    Thanks so much for doing this and showing me the result. It gives me some hope, and when I've had some sleep and some strong coffee, I will attempt to bring that hope to realization.

    Screen Shot 2020-02-24 at 1.34.45 AM.png
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  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,239
    mavante said:
    nemesis10 said:
    1. I was actually propering an image to show something else so... 
    2. loaded a g8 male (RY Steven), added a RedzStudio hair and a Utilize outfit...
    3. loaded an HDRI on a sunny day,set the HDRI so that the scene was not visible but ground shadows would show...
    4. set the Environment Map to the jpg of Top of the World and rendered:

     

    Well, you've managed to achieve pretty exactly what I have been tearing out my hair while failing to achieve it, and my hat is off to you. It's too late for me to engage in even the possibility of more hair tearing tonight, but I will try to follow your steps tomorrow after strong coffee.

    I'm attaching my latest miserable attempts to get it to work by following L'Adair's tuturial, Using a 3DL Skydome in Iray. It seems to work for some people, but I have had nothing but crashing failures trying to get anything resembling sunlight to fall on the accursed platorm and its props.

    I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but all of the objects in the scene I'm trying to get lit (in more ways than one) were designed for 3Delight, so had to have the Uber Base applied to them in order for them to show up in iRay at all. I've tried everything I know to get light onto them, including throwing a spotlight on it, with a spotlight target dead center of the columned structure, and cranking the luminance up to 100,00. No. Light. Appears. On. The. Objects. Cue "Twilight Zone" music.

    Thanks so much for doing this and showing me the result. It gives me some hope, and when I've had some sleep and some strong coffee, I will attempt to bring that hope to realization.

    My own opinion is that iray has superior lighing so don't even try to light the scene like a 3delight scene.  Start adding all of your props, add a nice HDRI to light the scene, you can then use the skydome texture on the Environment background, and render!

  • mavantemavante Posts: 734

    I'm sorry I've been so slow to respond to this. It certainly was not for lack of interest, only lack of time. Now that I have carved out a little time to get back to this, I discover I'm pretty confused about what you wrote here, specifically points 3 and 4:

    nemesis10 said:
    1. I was actually propering an image to show something else so... 
    2. loaded a g8 male (RY Steven), added a RedzStudio hair and a Utilize outfit...
    3. loaded an HDRI on a sunny day,set the HDRI so that the scene was not visible but ground shadows would show...
    4. set the Environment Map to the jpg of Top of the World and rendered:

    I guess I have a pretty major confusion about the use of HDRIs. It seems to me, in my fog, that 3 and 4 above are mutually exclusive. I thought that to use an HDRI, it was the Environment Map. I have no problem setting the Environment Map to the jpg of "Top of the World." Can you tell me how point 3 above is accomplished while also accomplishing 4 above?

    Sorry to be dense.

  • FishtalesFishtales Posts: 6,039

    I think he probably meant the Environment/backdrop which is under the Window/Panes menu.

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,239
    Fishtales said:

    I think he probably meant the Environment/backdrop which is under the Window/Panes menu.

    That was exactly what I meant; sorry 

  • mavantemavante Posts: 734
    edited February 2020
    nemesis10 said:
    Fishtales said:

    I think he probably meant the Environment/backdrop which is under the Window/Panes menu.

    That was exactly what I meant; sorry 

    (Head on desk) For which?

    If for the "Top of the World" jpeg, I'm afraid this is not a solution I can use. This is for an animation where the camera is focused on three characters on the platform, in which the camera needs to circle around them while zooming out, establishing the grandeur of the scene. The amount of the camera's circling that ultimately is used may not reach to 360° but I need the full 360°.

    I may have solved this—after a fashion—by using Easy Environments: Tree of Life environment, which is not the same, but is similar, with low sun and mountains poking through low clouds/fog. It, right out of the box, works with the objects/props from Top of the World, also right out of the box. I still can't get the dramatic shadows I want from the columns and props (except with camera at some limited angles). I'm not sure why, but at this point I'm not sure I much care.

    I'm rapidly reaching the "good enough for TV" (and budget) point.

    OpeningAngelsScene1.png
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    Post edited by mavante on
  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,239
    mavante said:
    nemesis10 said:
    Fishtales said:

    I think he probably meant the Environment/backdrop which is under the Window/Panes menu.

    That was exactly what I meant; sorry 

    (Head on desk) For which?

    If for the "Top of the World" jpeg, I'm afraid this is not a solution I can use. This is for an animation where the camera is focused on three characters on the platform, in which the camera needs to circle around them while zooming out, establishing the grandeur of the scene. The amount of the camera's circling that ultimately is used may not reach to 360° but I need the full 360°.

    I may have solved this—after a fashion—by using Easy Environments: Tree of Life environment, which is not the same, but is similar, with low sun and mountains poking through low clouds/fog. It, right out of the box, works with the objects/props from Top of the World, also right out of the box. I still can't get the dramatic shadows I want from the columns and props (except with camera at some limited angles). I'm not sure why, but at this point I'm not sure I much care.

    I'm rapidly reaching the "good enough for TV" (and budget) point.

    I was refereing to the comment just above mine: "I think he probably meant the Environment/backdrop which is under the Window/Panes menu."   Yep, that won't help you with an animation.... I think you found the closest solution.  I suppose one could  use the skydome, convert it to iray, make it emmisive, use an iray plane to virtually cut a hole through the dome and let light in.

  • mavantemavante Posts: 734
    nemesis10 said:

    I think you found the closest solution.  I suppose one could  use the skydome, convert it to iray, make it emmisive, use an iray plane to virtually cut a hole through the dome and let light in.

    I guess nobody ever claimed that being the god of a universe is easy. cool Thanks very much for your help. It is what led directly to the solution I've come up with, and it is a go!

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,239
    edited February 2020

    For next time, definitely look into the iray plane thing.... There is a vendor at Renderosity, Paper Tiger, who has light sets along with a camera coupled with an set of iray planes which cut a hole through whatever thing you have in the scene so that  the light of the exterior HDRI is not blocked by the skydome.  One downside of the skydome is that the light is diffuse so rendering times shoot way up.

    Post edited by nemesis10 on
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 17,890
    mavante said:
    nemesis10 said:

    I think you found the closest solution.  I suppose one could  use the skydome, convert it to iray, make it emmisive, use an iray plane to virtually cut a hole through the dome and let light in.

    I guess nobody ever claimed that being the god of a universe is easy. cool Thanks very much for your help. It is what led directly to the solution I've come up with, and it is a go!

    Sky is also opaque with the clouds and all so making the cutout opacity less than 1.0 will let some light through too.

    Or add a distant light via the menu and put it where you want the sun in the Skydome & make that distant light very bright like the sun.

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