Spoiled thread
marble
Posts: 7,449
I've noticed a tendency, when browsing commercial tutorials, for the producers of those tutorials to assume that their target audience has access to the same tools that they have. ZBrush is one of the most common assumptions. Some high end GPU is another and I end up wondering whether that target audience is the hobbyist or perhaps fellow professional artists who can offset the cost of these expensive tools as a business expense? Or perhaps I, as a hobbyist, am not typical of that demographic. I don't have unlimited funds so ZBrush and the like are out of reach for me. When I took the decision to move to a PC for running DAZ Studio, I delved deeply into my savings to build one that was IRay capable. At the time that included a GTX 970 GPU which I have since replaced by a 1070. I allow myself one major purchase per year and a major purchase is something like Marvelous Designer which I bought last year in their half-price sale for $250. This year I have splashed out on a VR headset ($399) which is wonderful but I find myself wishing that DAZ would pay more attention to Virtual Reality.
Otherwise, I use low cost or free applications. I have Blender 2.8 installed. I have Hexagon which was also free. I have Affinity Photo which, for me, is a good and cheap alternative to Photoshop but I only paid for that because I never got along with Gimp. When I see something in the DAZ store that I might find useful, I wishlist it until it comes up in a big-discount sale (they always do - eventually).
So, this is not meant to be a criticism of those who can afford nice toys, it is more a question to the user-base about what people can afford or what they prioritise for purchase. DAZ Studio may be free but it is certainly not an inexpensive hobby if you want to discover its full potential. Hopefully, I might pick up some tips on what to look for that is both low-cost and creative/entertaining because I'm tired of kicking myself for missing bargains. And to those tutorial producers: please consider Blender rather than ZBrush (that's only a personal plea, of course).
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Comments
What types of things are you interested in learning in Blender, marble?
I would guess it's all over the map. I buy what I can afford and these days it's not much. I splurged on a refurbished PC and a refurbished 2080 ti recently. Many of the folks here seem to be the save if I can afford it. We do have the users buying everything they see in the store, but I think they are the vocal minority. I myself would not waste any money on VR. I think it has a way to go. It hurts to watch.
Blender is so big in scope that I have not scratched the surface. When it comes to interaction with DAZ studio, I would like tutorials to include the best methods of export/import and the settings required. When I do occasionally export to Blender I have to search the forum to remind myself of those settings but the forum search is hit and miss and I always feel like I'm just fumbling because I am not a content creator, just a hobbyist.
I have tried both the Teleblender and the Diffeomorphic scripts and again found myself fumbling because I am probably missing something so basic that it is assumed everyone will know that already.
Well it it clearly a personal and subjective opinion that it is a waste of money. I don't agree but I do agree that it has a long way to go. I find that exciting though. Looking at renders in stereoscopic 3D watching a VR view is a new experience for me and I find it quite awesome right now.
I think avarage hobbyist or not fully professionals can justify those subscriptions. I think those subscription services only targets production studios etc. Tutorials are for everyone who want to learn something, I think those tutorials are useless for those who does not have basic knowledge and experience.
May be VR will replace HTML5 just like Adobe Flash. Currently I am not interested in VR.
I only brought up VR to illustrate that it has been my big ticket expense for this year. Next year it will probably be a GPU upgrade to an Ampere GPU which will be needed both for IRay and for VR.
I think use it as little as possible specially for an extended amount of time to reduce eye strain.
Because MD, Zbursh, and Substance are all industry standards, there is probably many more people with knowledge about these programs to make tutorials about them. And I appreciate that these people share their wisdom.
But due to the price, I think tutorials focusing on a combination of programs like Marvelous Designer, Zbrush, and Substance would be targeted more to artists or potential artists than hobbyists. It seems extravagant for hobbyists to outlay many hundreds of dollars per program when they probably won't have the free time to really be productive enough making bespoke content with this software to make it worth their while. Whereas artists who sell their content can recoup the costs, provided they make content at a high enough rate.
I think tutorials aimed at using free software like Blender would be of great value to hobbyists. There seems to be many features in Blender that are either not in Daz at all, better than what is in Daz, or much easier to use in Blender vs. Daz. Whether that is rendering tools, terrain creation, modelling, morphing, cloth sim, texturing, etc. But Blender can be a bit inaccessible so tutorials about how to leverage Daz and Blender together would be welcome for the hobbyist.
Thanks and I agree entirely.
ouch, funny I used to feel the same about VR till I got my Oculus Rift S and now don't even play any of my non VR games. It's the BEST investment i have made this year, even better than my rtx 2080ti (which I still need for VR also). As marble can attest to, I am a big fan of VR and feel the more users that get into it, the more that will be developed for it. next year looks to be an amazing year for new games, experiences and hardware, can't wait!
As for hobbyists and cost, it can get expensive. Luckily I make a few bucks commercially so I am able to wrinte off some of the costs of assets on tax day. I feel more guilty when I spend $150 on a round of golf. It's fun for a few hours, but that's it. At least I can use 3D assets over and over again
HOBBYIST CASH FLOW... as much as possible until i start to get all anxious and that stomach queaze feeling.
VR seemed great till I tried it. I came close to vomiting. Until they solve the motion sickness issue it will not catch on.
Sorry you get that. I have always suffered with motion sickness - boats, cars, buses, fairground rides, etc., but I have not had the slightest discomfort using the VR headset so far. I don't use it for hours at a time but it seems fine for shorter periods. I'm not sure that I could use it for working in DAZ Studio as at least one person here has described.
IMO that is part of the experience and there are many ways to work on getting that under control. I get a bit of vertigo when I start a new game and there are heights involved. It took me 2 weeks to get kinda used to the Spiderman game when I first tried it. Scared the crap out of my that I was falling off the edge of the building
The motion sickness is something you have to train. Like when on sea, it will get better over time!
Hi, marble. Here is a cheap zbrush alternative that is still in beta called Armor for $18 usd >>>armorpaint.org<<<< Not as good as zbrush but cheap. A nice free modeling program is wings3d or better yet a new one called dust >>>dust3d.org<<< There is also a free opensourse material maker >>>rodzilla.itch.io/material-maker<<< There is also blender has most of this stuff but complicated to learn. On a side note I have learned that Blender is 2X faster in Linux than windows. I also wish Daz studio was Linux software. I am going to have to keep an unsecure unsafe operating system windows 7 pro just for Daz Studio because of the vram and ram issue in Windows 10. If Daz does not want to support Linux they should at least open sourse their software or better yet provide some programming assistance to the ReactOS so that it can get DirectX support so we can use ReactOS as the OS for Daz Studio so we don't get hacked using Windows 7. I did have to upgrade to Windows 10 Pro on my VR and gaming rigs but these are single video card systems that are just for that and these system run daz studio terribly because W10 is both a vram and regular ram hog plus it has alot of useless crap running in the background. If you must use windows 10 I would recommend this youtube tutoral for decrapifying your Win10 box>>>How to Optimize Windows 10 for Gaming and Productivity! (Comprehensive Guide) [2019] - YouTube<<< Hope this helps
Fantastic! Thanks for all those tips. Yeah, I would avoid Windows if I could but Linux is not an option for DAZ Studio (despite the fact that it sort-of runs within WINE). I would make more use of Blender but getting scenes into Blender and tweaking the materials is still something I have to master. I'd like to be able to use Eevee for short animations and Cycles may not be much quicker than IRay but I believe it is more efficient with VRAM and has Out-of-Core capabilities too. Also there is a free version of Octane for Blender so I really should spend some more time with it.
Also, I think it's not only a question of hobbyist vs professional artist but also a question of available income. Some hobbyist might have more disposable income than some professionals. Then of course they can afford more. For some people this is a fun and challenging hobby, and some spend more than maybe some artists. It all depends.
Then you have people with other priorities. This reminds me of people spending for luxury goods. Many people spend money on luxury clothing or accessories, furniture, cars, vacations ... and some ... on 3D software or 3D assets. Those who spent 4-digits-figures on the newest smartphone might not understand why someone would spend the same amount on a GPU. But that doesn't matter because everyone has their priorities and what they like. Nobody has to justify themselves.
O Or you have people who have collected a huge library of assets. During the PA sale we had many people say they spent amounts worth a new GPU during the sale, and the how big is your library thread is testament to how many assets some people have collected. You have many people who own 50 or more characters for G8F. Then other people don't have many assets because they can't find what they like and started creating their own assets? Marvelous Designer is only 300 at Steam, 250 if discounted. This is the price of 20-30 characters or clothing sets, a common and reasonable amount.
Now for me personally, I don't have ZBrush. But the reason why I don't have it is not so much the costs (last time I read about perpetual license you can upgrade a couple of times - that helps offset the costs for sure) but more that I'm too dumb to use it. All I can do are fairly simple morphs in Blender and Hexagon and the interface of ZBrush scares the shit out if me. I lack the time currently to properly learn this.
I havr done very easy stuff in Blender and I really like the new interface. I love how Blender has evolved but what I do with Blender only scratches the surface barely if all. Tutorials focusing on Blender and Daz interaction would be great. There are a couple of things I guess I've figured out but ... not sure if I'm doing it right. Probably not. The same ZBrush, I can't use ZBrush but equally I can't use Blender. The only difference here is that while it hurts to purchase software I can't use because I'm too dumb and have no time to learn it doesn't hurt too much to download free software and find out you can't use because you are you.
Yeah, I myself avoided Blender pre 2.8 like the plague. Too many keyboard commands. My solution to this was using Blender For Artists and it worked pretty well, most of those fuctions are all icon in this fork of blender so IF you like more Icons than keyboard commands I would give this version of blender a look. I have had to slow down my spending on this hobby but I still enjoy it. Recently, purchased a Wacom Cintiq 21UX for cheap on craigslist from a company going out of business that looks new and works well to replace my wacom tablet. Being able to work on stuff on the screen works great but the technology to do so is very expensive if you buy this stuff new. If you don't want to spend money there are great free alternatives to most of the big software out there for free. You just have to lower your expectations to how they work. The big 5 free for me are 1: LiberOffice, 2: Gimp, 3: Inkscape, 4: Krita, 5: Blender! All of these work in windows or linux and they are just as good but are not as polished as commercial products. There are many others as well but these are the big ones I recommend to everyone.
Sure it free BUT, and the big butt rears its ugly head!!!!! If I wanted it to do something that the shareware software does not and I was willing to pay for it, I could hire a programmer to write code and it would not be a problem. Closed source software does not allow you to alter the program to your own wishes. Look at Bryce and Hexagon although it was given a little help unlike Bryce, both are great pieces of software that is just sitting on the shelf without any love. I know that programmers are not cheap but some people would just for the hell of it do work on this software if it was opensource. Here is another problem with closed source software, that you will not want to hear about daz studio. If daz the company ever goes out of business, and windows just keeps going to new hardware and platforms you will have to find an old compatible computers and windows 7 just to run your daz studio. Computer break down, so you would have to hit ebay and craigslist to find your vintage hardware to use you beloved shareware. Just food for thought
I can afford the free software and the very low priced stuff...
I used to get higher end software on sale, but those days appear to be over... there is a general move to keeps prices as high as possible, especially with subscription software becoming a thing.
I never really buy anything over $150 and usually that is few and far between... I got lucky with silo and 3D Coat and managed to get them on sale a few years ago.
But the popular professional stuff never goes on sale and I just don't bother... years ago I bought Photoshop CS2 and that served my purpose fine, but as they added neat new features, I started saving for a new version after a couple of years hoping to find a physical copy (remember those?) of a previous version on sale when they moved on to a new version... I was about to plunk down full price when Adobe went to subscription and the price of physical copies of the previous version actually cost more than new.. It was then I decided I'm never wasting time on that again.
The "Professional" software companies don't really care to attract hobbyists and low budget artists, they don't need to and it's not worth their time.
Some newer companies do try and accommodate people with smaller budgets... I forgot who it was was, but one of them had a license structure that was brilliant... the price was tiered by income... Student was cheapest but the license had to be renewed after a year (no addition cost, but you had to show proof you were still a student)... Hobbyist was like $150, but you couldn't purchase the license if you made over $10k in a project using the software... Professional was $300 and was required for income over 10k... but all versions were exactly the same... no missing features or hobbled software. Headus Software (UV Layout?) has something similar, I think, but they have missing features for the lower level and they use a dongle (I still snicker when I say "dongle").
One thing though about using free software and low price stuff... it may be frustrating that it doesn't always have all the bells and whistles as the stuff the pros use, or it may be more complicated to achieve the same results... but sometimes it's better to understand how to use a lot of different tools as opposed to relying on one big fat Swiss Army knife of a tool... eventually you get used to that way of doing stuff and when you need to use something else, it's outside your comfort zone.
Thats basically like saying "if you never buy an air conditioner, you won't be uncomfortable when there is a blackout"... but I'm okay with adapting.
Mostly.
It would be cool to have some of the pro stuff... but it ain't gonna ever happen, so I'm just gonna ignore that they are there.
I'm a navy vet. It's been a while since I was deployed at sea but that takes, for me at least, several days. I'm not about to wear a VR headset for that long.
Depends what you mean by average: mean, mode median or range? :)
True but ...
Like many others, I was attracted to DAZ Studio because I like to be creative and it was free. I like to see my imagined scenes or, if you like, fantasies captured in something approaching an artistic image. Turns out that there are multiple enhancements you can purchase to take that "cheap" hobby to new levels - obviously removing the "cheap" categorisation in the process. And there's all the content - not cheap. And there's other software that can do the things DAZ Studio either can't do or does poorly - but often that software is not cheap either. So that hard-to-believe-it's-free enticement into this hobby turns out to be a major expense in my life. But now I'm hooked. I found the process of expressing those fantasies on screen somewhat addictive. I can't wait for the next project.
I don't sell the images I produce. I don't even keep them - most have been deleted within a few days of completion. Why? Because the fun of the hobby is all in the doing. I sit here and watch something take shape and watch a story play out. A story that has come straight from my imagination but which is often a complete surprise to me - it just seems to come forth of its own volition. Fantastic fun. So I allow myself some budget for the hobby that brings such fun. I just object to commercial enterprises that seek to either exclude me - by price hikes - from obtaining some useful tools or lock me in to some payment scheme which will drain my budget for years to come.
Unlike DAZ studio, these applications are not developed or sold for the hobbyist market. They are widely used by professionals, whether they be employees or sole traders—in either case it effectively costs them nothing (assuming they have sufficient taxable income to offset against). Of course, they want as much as the hobbyist market as they can get, and they are not necessarily unaffordable as such (at least not the ones mentioned, i.e. ZBrush, Marvellous, Substance). The way I look at it is that personally this is the only hobby of any significant cost that I have—I don't even own a car, which is quite the expense when you add it all up, so I feel I can spend a bit on it. Most of the spend goes to DAZ (although I do subscribe to Substance).
I think the real problem is that one is liable to think that one simply must have ZBrush, Marvellous, or Substance because they are such dazzling applications in our field of interest, but the thing is they are not easy to use. The investment in time is tremendous, and not everyone has the aptitude to use them. For example, I cannot sculpt a thing to save my life (I've tried), so I shan't be tempted by ZBrush, and I doubt I have latent abilities as a fashion designer. And that's not the end of it—in every case it takes considerable effort and knowledge to get your results into a usable form (in our case into DAZ studio). My advice is not to feel pressured into having these applications and that you will somehow not be a true 3D artist if you don't. I think frankly that you will mostly be wasting your money.
On the other hand, the nice thing in respect to 3D modelling applications is that Blender is now as good as any—even Autodesk, in respect to Maya, have acknowleged this in their roundabout way. And it is free. Maya will hold its sway due to it being the established player in the game and related industries (and as I said, cost doesn't really matter to them) but I think startups will be very tempted by Blender, especially with some of the big backers the foundation has acquired. A modelling app, I think, has more use than any other for DAZ users, and I think if you cannot get along with learning Blender then there is probably no point in spending money on the others.
Which is precisely why I started out this thread by suggesting that tutorial authors might consider including Blender rather than assuming that we all have ZBrush in our back pocket.