I can fool you.

CypherFOX

Greetings,

Bobvan said:

Thats cool I respect your opinion. Like you said I never stated I was going for photo realistic. Just quality renders for my stories as I mentioned above....

Thanks; I was worried I'd offend. You have a rendering style which ties your work together, which is equally important. (And something I've considered cultivating, but I haven't found one that I'm comfortable with yet.)

...and that's another variable in the mix of 'realistic' renders, the stylistic choice of understated lighting, or post-working to make colors pop, or a squirrel in every render. :)

-- Morgan

Bobvan

If one is going to post on a forum one has to be open to critique im surprised there was not more. I just find Reality is a tool that allows me to express what I want to translate. I have heard a few times including my regular series fans about some of my darker lighting in some cases. When I watch TV shows i notice quite a lot of darker lighting (And I am faking a tv show style) unless its out on a bright sunny day like this. My stories look like they are portrayed with virtual dolls. Since it is about miniature people it does kind of suit it...

CypherFOX

Greetings,
For comparison with the Utopia Labs piece posted earlier by @snow, this is Luxus, at 148 S/p (a very low number). I converted the Sunlight to Sun and made it a SunSky2 Luxus material type, and that's the only light.

But most importantly I hid the Skydome. Skydomes don't work so well with LuxRender, because the (sun) light comes from essentially infinitely far away, the dome acts like a light filter, casting the entire scene into shade.

I also tweaked the Film Response to be Kodak Gold 200, but there are other ones which give even richer colors. (Oh, and I always switch over to 'Reinhard / non-Linear' for the Kernel, not for any good reason, but because the images seem more deep to me whenever I do.)

For reference, I'm not a Luxus or LuxRender expert, it's just stuff I picked up while trying to understand why @snow was seeing such terrible results for what I know to be both a great renderer and a great set.

I'm not claiming this is a great image, but the colors are much more vibrant and visible than the example given before, and it took me only minutes to get that result. It still takes work and time to understand your tools, no matter what they are. There is no button that will let a novice create an image like a master, or even like a journeyman. :)

-- Morgan
[Edit: Added a character, let it render for a while longer, and tweaked VERY slightly in post. Patience, grasshopper.]

TheWheelMan

snowpheonix said:

Bobvan said:

Ha yooz using Luxus different deal don't know it

Well what do you have? I'll try that because I need something that lets me adjust the materials and it looks like your program does that.. and your picture showed it had a preview feature.. I want that one.. LOL

I would need to know how to fix the materials for the streets (grey looks hideous) and brighten up the buildings.

That's another unfinished render. When you see a Lux render that looks grainy, then it hasn't run long enough. You won't be any good with Lux without patience. You keep talking about what the program can't do, but all of your examples of not so good Lux renders are merely a product of your lack of patience.

Not trying to be snarky. That's just the truth.

Direwrath

TheWheelMan said:

A car's sole function is to allow you to transport yourself from one place to another. It's not a tool you use to create other stuff.

I have to be honest, and I'm really not trying to be mean, but to say that a great tool should make an amateur look like a professional just tells me that you have no respect whatsoever for the actual skills and hard work of a true artist. It sounds like you think that a paint-by-numbers set would make someone as worthy of accolades as DaVinci, and that's outright garbage. The time and work and skill that a person puts into whatever they do is something one should respect and appreciate, but I just don't know if you recognize this. The day when humans can just sit on their butts and push a button to make art or anything else is the day we stop being human. People who get off their @sses and WORK are the ones who innovate, not the ones who sit back and expect their tools to do it for them.

Yes! Someone who actually understands! ;) I felt a little thrown back many years ago when I was a simple sketch/comic book artist who had to use pencils, chalk, and ink *gasp* to do my art manually. So I throw my work up on DA to get some help with technique and to meet other artists and soon there were tons upon tons of this amazing art that had color that was just beautiful. Come to find out that there was this program for the computer that simplified the task with layers and filters and all that cool stuff. It sure made my work and all the effort I put into it look infantile to say the least.

In less then a few hours someone could throw an image into the computer, color it, and make it look like the cover of a book. It would take me longer than that to sketch an image, ink the lines, and then color it. Guess what I did, backed down from building up my drawing skill and instead turned to the programs to do what I wanted.
Yes I understand as well just how easy it is to forget how much work it is to perfect your skill, all that blood, sweat, and tears means little when an easier way of doing things gets a better result.

As for render engines.
I do not use Lux, nor Reality, but they have amazing results when in the right hands. That is my opinion, and I do not condone anyone for using them or using Daz for their renders. All of the render engines have their great points, you just have to know how to find them.

You want to claim that you can fool others, well it is obvious that you need to work on your stuff in order to do that and this fact is what everyone is trying to help you with. As I said earlier in this thread, you have got to be careful when you issue a challenge in an art forum because artists are not afraid to be blunt, nor do they like being degraded when they try to give advice. You keep trying to play nice by saying that you just want to know a better way of doing things, well they have given that to you and you thank them by belittling their program of choice.
Yet you have not been particularly clear with what you are asking here? Do you want to trick people as your title says, or do you really want help in learning how to use Daz and its render engine to its fullest potential?

Maybe a better title to the thread would have had different results and wouldn't have been so broad in its purpose.

SnowPheonix

Cypherfox said:

Greetings,

As for the few Luxus renders shown before, I'm more than a little confident you aren't lighting them correctly. The one using Stonemason's Utopia Lab clearly has everything in shadow, for example, which explains much of the flat look. (Shadows flatten everything, so lighting will be critical.) The motorcycle shot looks like it's using the default if-you-do-nothing-else sun-ish light.

There used to be a Reality thread where lots of folks posted their renders. Sadly no equivalent Luxus thread has taken its place.

-- Morgan

It's funny to me that people are always so critical of the lighting in my pictures because I actually own every lighting package sold by DAZ3d that say they are valid with my version of Studio. I've watched several training videos and I'm participating in the forums asking how I can improve.

Now its easy to tell me what you think I'm doing wrong all day until the cows come home but that doesn't get me any closer to doing it right. We both know that the lighting works differently in Luxus so if you want to be helpful, tell me what I can do using whats available through DAZ3d. I already own "Rings of light Lux" and thats just sad and pathetic compared to the 'default' setting provided by sphericlab with Luxus that you just complained about.

A solution focus reply would be more helpful... Using available tools, walk me through what you would do to improve those scenes.

Thanks in advance.

SnowSultan

I'd just like to chime in briefly and point out that SnowPheonix and SnowSultan are two different artists. I believe at least one person has mixed us up since this discussion began, and I'd prefer it not happen again.

Snowpheonix is the one who started this thread. SnowSultan is the seam guide/Smacky guy who doesn't believe any of us can fool anyone with our 3D art, so we should just make whatever we like as best we can and with whatever method we prefer. ;)

Thanks,

SnowSultan

SnowPheonix

TheWheelMan said:

snowpheonix said:

Bobvan said:

Ha yooz using Luxus different deal don't know it

Well what do you have? I'll try that because I need something that lets me adjust the materials and it looks like your program does that.. and your picture showed it had a preview feature.. I want that one.. LOL

I would need to know how to fix the materials for the streets (grey looks hideous) and brighten up the buildings.

That's another unfinished render. When you see a Lux render that looks grainy, then it hasn't run long enough. You won't be any good with Lux without patience. You keep talking about what the program can't do, but all of your examples of not so good Lux renders are merely a product of your lack of patience.

Not trying to be snarky. That's just the truth.

No, I get that you're trying to be helpful and I appreciate that... I get exactly what you are saying but to repeat myself, "Garbage In, Garbage Out".

Some of you tried and true StoneMason fans probably recognized "Urban Sprawl 2", I purposely stopped that render because of the fact that I could see where it was going and it didn't impress me. Ironically, I only stopped it to show you what I was working on to get help on improving it and I restarted it and in fact its running in the background now because I want to see if I let it run for the entire day if the road details will improve... as it stands its not looking very hopeful.

Bobvan

Agreed wheelie nothing irks me more them that lux noise thats one thing you dont see in my renders and fox dont see anything mind blowing in thems luxus renders either to each our own I guess :)

CypherFOX

Greetings,

snowpheonix said:

Now its easy to tell me what you think I'm doing wrong all day until the cows come home but that doesn't get me any closer to doing it right. We both know that the lighting works differently in Luxus so if you want to be helpful, tell me what I can do using whats available through DAZ3d.

I did exactly that in my next post, just to note, but you didn't quote that one...

-- Morgan

TheWheelMan

I just think it's crappy to intentionally post a half done render and then use that as a basis to find fault with the program. You don't ask people for help in one breath and then find fault with their tools and their methods in the other.

If you want help, Snowphoenix, then stop spouting off your own personal wisdoms and criticisms and just let people help you.

CypherFOX

Greetings,

Bobvan said:

Agreed wheelie nothing irks me more them that lux noise thats one thing you dont see in my renders and fox dont see anything mind blowing in thems luxus renders either to each our own I guess :)

Nothing meant to be mind-blowing in mine, just showing Mr. Phoenix how to use Luxus (his interface to LuxRender) with the Utopia Labs product. They're just examples, not scenes.

-- Morgan

Takeo.Kensei

Not absolutely related to the subject but there is no point in trying to make Snowphoenix learn anything as is it not really his goal. He is looking for one click solutions that do not exist. You can't make somebody learn when he/she doesn't want to

Second point : to be able to make somebody learn something, you must put people in a certain state and till the person are in the right mindset (Conscious incompetence) , you will most certainly lose your time. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence.

TheWheelMan

Takeo.Kensei said:

Not absolutely related to the subject but there is no point in trying to make Snowphoenix learn anything as is it not really his goal. He is looking for one click solutions that do not exist. You can't make somebody learn when he/she doesn't want to

Second point : to be able to make somebody learn something, you must put people in a certain state and till the person are in the right mindset (Conscious incompetence) , you will most certainly lose your time. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence.

Agreed.

Bobvan

Cypherfox said:

Greetings,

Bobvan said:

Agreed wheelie nothing irks me more them that lux noise thats one thing you dont see in my renders and fox dont see anything mind blowing in thems luxus renders either to each our own I guess :)

Nothing meant to be mind-blowing in mine, just showing Mr. Phoenix how to use Luxus (his interface to LuxRender) with the Utopia Labs product. They're just examples, not scenes.

-- Morgan

Fair enough

SnowPheonix

Cypherfox said:

Greetings,
For comparison with the Utopia Labs piece posted earlier by @snow, this is Luxus, at 148 S/p (a very low number). I converted the Sunlight to Sun and made it a SunSky2 Luxus material type, and that's the only light.

But most importantly I hid the Skydome. Skydomes don't work so well with LuxRender, because the (sun) light comes from essentially infinitely far away, the dome acts like a light filter, casting the entire scene into shade.

I also tweaked the Film Response to be Kodak Gold 200, but there are other ones which give even richer colors. (Oh, and I always switch over to 'Reinhard / non-Linear' for the Kernel, not for any good reason, but because the images seem more deep to me whenever I do.)

For reference, I'm not a Luxus or LuxRender expert, it's just stuff I picked up while trying to understand why @snow was seeing such terrible results for what I know to be both a great renderer and a great set.

I'm not claiming this is a great image, but the colors are much more vibrant and visible than the example given before, and it took me only minutes to get that result. It still takes work and time to understand your tools, no matter what they are. There is no button that will let a novice create an image like a master, or even like a journeyman. :)

-- Morgan
[Edit: Added a character, let it render for a while longer, and tweaked VERY slightly in post. Patience, grasshopper.]

Using Luxus, besides teh provided light options, I haven't figured out how to do any of these options that you are talking about. I know what you are saying about sky domes and have had a similar experience so I generally just delete them.

How would I adjust:

"Luxus, at 148 S/p (a very low number) and a SunSky2 Luxus material type" I know how to load the Sunsky2 from the content library but whats this about a "material type" in light?

Also you mentioned "Film response". I haven't seen any material preferences that indicate manipulate them in favor of Luxus.

It sounds to me like your also talking about software from Renderosity and not DAZ3d's version. I do appreciate your attempt to help :)

SnowPheonix

Bobvan

Glad you like the avatar but im moving on from this thread. One turn off I have is when they turn into flame wars (not with me per say) but overall thanks for the laughs...

CypherFOX

Greetings,

snowpheonix said:

How would I adjust:

"Luxus, at 148 S/p (a very low number) and a SunSky2 Luxus material type" I know how to load the Sunsky2 from the content library but whats this about a "material type" in light?So, 148 S/p is samples per pixel, which is a measure of how many light samples have contributed to each pixel of the output image. The larger the number the more accurate it is, basically. LuxRender can go forever, improving the scene, with more samples per pixel, but usually you will find that it's 'good enough' at some point, and anything more is diminishing returns. So you don't set the S/p, that's just a hardware-independent measure of how long I let it run for.

In order to make something light-emitting, you have two options.

When you have a Distant Light selected in the Scene, and the Parameters tab open, you can click the Options menu for the Parameters tab. That's the little icon with four straight lines and a triangle facing into them. It should be in the upper right or upper left of the Parameters tab, depending on which side you've put the tab. In the options tab you'll find 'Luxus - LuxRender Light'. You can select that, and it'll ask what type. I picked sun sky2 for the scene above. Once you click OK, you'll see a bunch of extra parameters show up in the Parameters tab for that light. One thing I suggest is renaming the distant light to 'Sun' because LuxRender treats a light named that specially. Now set your camera to the Sun light, and adjust so it's beaming down on the scene as you'd like.

The second option is for other kinds of lights; you can select an object in the scene that has a surface, and in the Surfaces tab, select a surface of that object, and then go to the options tab and you'll find 'Luxus - LuxRender Material'. Choosing that will give you a menu of LuxRender adjustments you can make. You could, for instance, pick Light Parameters, and your surface will gain a new hierarchy of light emission settings, which can make any (material zone mapped) part of an object a LuxRender light. This is also where you would do stuff like volumes for cloud-like things I believe, or various transparencies including refraction, etc...

To be clear, this is all in the very comprehensive manual that you got when you purchased Luxus.

Also you mentioned "Film response". I haven't seen any material preferences that indicate manipulate them in favor of Luxus.

It sounds to me like your also talking about software from Renderosity and not DAZ3d's version. I do appreciate your attempt to help :)

Nope; I have both Reality and Luxus, and because you use Luxus, I'm focusing on how to use it here.

So...first off, when you're setting up the Render Settings in Luxus, make sure to turn on Use LuxRender GUI. When the screen comes up that's actually doing the render, there's a tab all the way to the left on the sidebar (Imaging, IIRC) that offers a lot of configuration, including Gamma + Film Response. You can set the film type there.

The key thing here is to explore. Make lots of mistakes, laugh at them, and keep trying. But definitely read the manual, it'll help you through TONS of this stuff.

Best of luck with your renders!

-- Morgan

Takeo.Kensei

snowpheonix said:

I'm the one asking questions and only getting another load of criticism and you guys wonder why I gave up on Luxus when I'm finding out that many of you are talking about software from other websites and not the version here at DAZ3d that nobody has addressed except for me.

http://www.daz3d.com/luxus

I mean, people are talking about options I don't see available in the Luxus platform so it would be more helpful to explain where those options are available or how to improve my bad experience instead of making it worse as you are doing now.

You have no business getting personal with me. Please don't try to tell anybody about me in the future, you don't know me.

That is no flame war nor critic. It is an observation. It's like saying your shirt is red. You may not understand or realize it but what I said are just facts

I don't have Luxus but I know the render engine underneath and I know where to find information http://www.luxrender.net/wiki/Main_Page
For Luxus, I guess there is a manual and I've seen some thread about Luxus that you can read. If you dismissed the software before reading the manual I don't see what anybody can do.

Luxrender uses accurate real life physics and math to define materials and lights. So there is a minimal understanding needed of how light reacts with materials in Real Life to get the most of Lux. Knowing that there are real life effect that exist, and that you must be able to reproduce like fresnel, refraction, dispersion, translucence, etc... when speaking of realism.

For me it's only a matter of reading and understanding what I read then choose the right base material and tweak it until I get what I want according to my knowledge of real world physics and eventually use real world measures (IOR for example). But I have to know it. Luxus and Reality will not accurately translate materials as they can't know what the real material is. You'll get at most an approximation that will be false in most case. And if you don't know what the real material is and which base material to choose and what to tweak, nobody can do it at your place in order to make the picture better

I don't have any personal problem with you and I got it that you want realism with minimal effort and short rendertime. I just state facts that you may take personally because you don't understand what I'm meaning. Some people try to teach you and it's a warning for them as they can get frustrated

SnowPheonix

Cypherfox said:

Greetings,

snowpheonix said:

How would I adjust:

"Luxus, at 148 S/p (a very low number) and a SunSky2 Luxus material type" I know how to load the Sunsky2 from the content library but whats this about a "material type" in light?So, 148 S/p is samples per pixel, which is a measure of how many light samples have contributed to each pixel of the output image. The larger the number the more accurate it is, basically. LuxRender can go forever, improving the scene, with more samples per pixel, but usually you will find that it's 'good enough' at some point, and anything more is diminishing returns. So you don't set the S/p, that's just a hardware-independent measure of how long I let it run for.

In order to make something light-emitting, you have two options.

When you have a Distant Light selected in the Scene, and the Parameters tab open, you can click the Options menu for the Parameters tab. That's the little icon with four straight lines and a triangle facing into them. It should be in the upper right or upper left of the Parameters tab, depending on which side you've put the tab. In the options tab you'll find 'Luxus - LuxRender Light'. You can select that, and it'll ask what type. I picked sun sky2 for the scene above. Once you click OK, you'll see a bunch of extra parameters show up in the Parameters tab for that light. One thing I suggest is renaming the distant light to 'Sun' because LuxRender treats a light named that specially. Now set your camera to the Sun light, and adjust so it's beaming down on the scene as you'd like.

The second option is for other kinds of lights; you can select an object in the scene that has a surface, and in the Surfaces tab, select a surface of that object, and then go to the options tab and you'll find 'Luxus - LuxRender Material'. Choosing that will give you a menu of LuxRender adjustments you can make. You could, for instance, pick Light Parameters, and your surface will gain a new hierarchy of light emission settings, which can make any (material zone mapped) part of an object a LuxRender light. This is also where you would do stuff like volumes for cloud-like things I believe, or various transparencies including refraction, etc...

To be clear, this is all in the very comprehensive manual that you got when you purchased Luxus.

Also you mentioned "Film response". I haven't seen any material preferences that indicate manipulate them in favor of Luxus.

It sounds to me like your also talking about software from Renderosity and not DAZ3d's version. I do appreciate your attempt to help :)

Nope; I have both Reality and Luxus, and because you use Luxus, I'm focusing on how to use it here.

So...first off, when you're setting up the Render Settings in Luxus, make sure to turn on Use LuxRender GUI. When the screen comes up that's actually doing the render, there's a tab all the way to the left on the sidebar (Imaging, IIRC) that offers a lot of configuration, including Gamma + Film Response. You can set the film type there.

The key thing here is to explore. Make lots of mistakes, laugh at them, and keep trying. But definitely read the manual, it'll help you through TONS of this stuff.

Best of luck with your renders!

-- Morgan

OHHHHhhhh! I found what your talking about now... thank you for being patient and explaining that to me, I now understand that and I'm off to go and experiment. THANK YOU.

Heatherleea

This is probably the most realistic render I've done, far from perfect but I don't necessarily strive for realism.

SnowPheonix

Heatherlee said:

This is probably the most realistic render I've done, far from perfect but I don't necessarily strive for realism.

Well, I'd say in this one you nailed it! Great job. The only thing I would do differently is increase the contrast between shadow and light.. Thought I'd show you what I was talking about. In your advanced render settings, try raising the 'Gamma' rate to make it brighter. Just my thoughts. Thanks for sharing.

Jaderail

NM was not needed.

cecilia.robinson

snowpheonix said:

Let me point out one issue as an example, I have to admit that I don't have a lot of male hair in my runtime... but one thing I've been looking for is "Look At My Hair" products.

You have the wonderfully realistic hair product. I watch the video and it shows that hair styles can be made for humans but not a single P.A. has ever made human hair to put to market in all the time that products been on offer for free.

http://www.daz3d.com/look-at-my-hair-free-player

So... we could have a dozen products for sale by now but instead... nothing. It's good enough for the polar bear and the Big Cats 2 and even a beast man but nobody makes some easy humans... As long as you spend all your time looking back you'll have nothing to look forward to. See potential instead of fault. Take care.

I cannot believe it: a good library of fibermesh hair, shared for free, and somebody misses the price tag?! :P

Seriously, I would love to see more presets to come out, but their quality won't improve just because they would be more expensive.

SnowPheonix

TheWheelMan said:

snowpheonix said:

Bobvan said:

Ha yooz using Luxus different deal don't know it

Well what do you have? I'll try that because I need something that lets me adjust the materials and it looks like your program does that.. and your picture showed it had a preview feature.. I want that one.. LOL

I would need to know how to fix the materials for the streets (grey looks hideous) and brighten up the buildings.

That's another unfinished render. When you see a Lux render that looks grainy, then it hasn't run long enough. You won't be any good with Lux without patience. You keep talking about what the program can't do, but all of your examples of not so good Lux renders are merely a product of your lack of patience.

Not trying to be snarky. That's just the truth.

All of you guys were a really big help in your tips with "LuxRender". What I discovered is that the other version "Reality Render 2" is WAaaaaaY better then the version I was using. Sorry it took me so long to get back but I had to wait until the product went on sale (it's half off right now) to buy it. What I found is that all of those frustrating material problems that I was having in the past suddenly disappeared and the added functionality is awesome. No wonder all of you guys love using LuxRender... now that I have the better program from that other page, it's really made using that rendering engine something that I really want to use, learn and explore.

I think the only set back now is that I have all these great advanced lighting techniques from Age of Armor but I'm not sure if they will work in the other engine but I'm still exploring the new capabilities of this other program. I am finding lighting to be tricky as far as using advanced spotlights and things like that...

I have IG Lights "Photo Studio Lux" and Ring of light lux that have gone unused till now... I'll be playing a lot with those now that I know why LuxRender wasn't working for me... thanks again all of you. Thanks to you guys, now I really do believe I could fool people.

TheWheelMan

When Reality 3 comes out for DS, I think people will see even better results.

Direwrath

snowpheonix that is a really beautiful image.

Bobvan

A bit of lux noise but looking good you prolly should of lat it baked longer I know you like my stuff here are a few more I have waaaayy too many to post

SphericLabs

Looks like we have gone the rounds on the Luxus vs Reality. Both are good programs(I am biased towards Luxus, being the author), but the two take rather different approaches to rendering with LuxRender.

Luxus has the following differences(I see these as advantages, but not everyone does)
- No DRM of any kind. no serial number. no muss, no fuss.
- LuxRender Material Properties available in Surfaces Pane.
- Parity with LuxRender documentation, what LuxRender calls it, Luxus calls it the same thing
- All of the LuxRender 1.3 materials available
- Future Proofing (instead of loading up and hand editing the file, put your hand edits in the Extra Settings Property.
- Support for DAZ Studio instancing.
- Support for DAZ scripting.
- Support for a Shader Builder using Eluxir.
- A DAZ Studio material or shader preset saved out will have the LuxRender properties saved with it.
- No extra node in the scene.

Reality is taking steps to become its own app, while Luxus tightly integrates with DAZ Studio. As far as quality of renders. It's the same renderer. Reality was first and attracted a lot of very talented artists. Luxus has very talented artists. Some people even use both. The two are different approaches to the same thing.