Genesis 8 Characters and 3Delight shaders...(plus disappearing makeup)

petefaure

So, I only recently tried to start using Genesis 8 models......

They are very good in many ways, of course, but it seems like many of them do not come with 3delight shaders at all.... which means I can't use them because I only use 3Delight or OpenGL for my renders (and the default iray settings look weird when rendering using other engines)

On top of that, I wnder if you noticed that some characters (Wren and Billie, that I know of). Now, I got those characters becuase they do have 3Delight shader presets.... But there is a catch. Actually, I apply makeup lipstick etc, and then applied the 3delight shaders at the end....and, well, wait a minute, as soon as I applied the shader all the make up and lipstick colors were gone....Hmmmm, but if you reapply them the whole face will look as spooky-weird as all the new Iray-default G8 garbage looks like......

Seems like a joke to me...... we get the shaders but now no makeup or lipstick unless we use effing Iray

Anyways, this is frustrating....I'm really starting to get sick and tired of DAZ continuous efforts to try and force everybody to use IRa\Y....I hate Iray and if they don't start showing more respect for DAZ users who don't like it they will lose a lot of business in the future, starting with mine.

about Iray

1- Yes, it looks great if you spend hours learning about it and spend hours on each picture....if not it just makes eveything looks worse. A ton of amateurs like me use Daz, trying to force everybody to become a pro is dumb and extremely vexing

2- I don't use an old computer held together with spit and wire....sure, it's not top of the line either, but it's an I5, tons of RAM, a 1050 Nvidia card with plenty of RAM..... and still the computer looks like it might end up exploding even rendering simple scenes with few lights...don't even get me started on more complex ones.... Not many amateurs can afford the very best computers on the market (and obviously that's what it takes to use Iray

3- Even productgs advertised as 3Delight friendly do not working properly in it..... so again no respect for people who don't want to bother with Iray....

Sad

dracorn

The reason why your makeup dissappears is that some makeups rely on Iray fields such as Diffuse Overlay, Top Coat, or Metallic Flakes, which are not available in 3DL.  These fields act like additional layers within the Iray surface.  

I highly recommend this tutorial for 3DL character surfaces.  It really explains how to manipulate the surfaces using Age of Armor's subsurface shader (which is free):

https://www.daz3d.com/tutorial-introduction-to-character-surface-settings

Another thing you can do is load the character in Iray and go to the Surfaces tab and pick up the maps.  Some of those maps you may be able to apply in 3DL.  You can experiment with applying these maps to geometry shells and see if that works.  Use both the Diffuse and Opacity maps in that case.

If the character uses Layered Makeup, apply that makeup in the Iray version and then convert it to 3DL.  

Lastly, you could try taking the maps into an image editor (Photoshop, Gimp, etc.) and manually apply them to the skin and reloading the map manually.  I created my own folder under Runtime/Textures for this very purpose.  Make sure you keep a backup copy of these textures because if you have to reload Daz Studio, you will lose them and get 'missing texture' errors when you try to load your custom character.

The more you deconstruct characters, the more you will learn how to manipulate and customize them.  Good luck!

dracorn

Some more tips for a beginner using 3DL:

I highly recommend this light set - these are the best 3DL lights and are easy to use.  

https://www.daz3d.com/advanced-daz-studio-light-bundle

Here are some other great light sets (anything by Marshian is great):

https://www.daz3d.com/reflective-radiance-for-3delight

https://www.daz3d.com/rim-light-rig

Also, please visit the New Users Contest forum.  When I first started with D/S using 3DL, I learned so much. There are lots of people there willing to help you out.  Additionally, you will find many tips on the 3Delight Laboratory Thread.  There are quite a few Daz Studio users who prefer 3DL to Iray.

https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/55128/3delight-laboratory-thread-tips-questions-experiments/p1

plasma_ring

I can understand your frustration, but one of the things I think about a lot when considering whether I'd like to try making 3D content myself is that I'm not sure I could commit to supporting 3DL. 

I started out using Iray--having never touched 3D before, really, so about as far from pro as you can get--and only recently started messing around in 3Delight. I have no idea what I'm doing and I'm in almost the reverse position--3DL feels much less intuitive to me than Iray, and few of my go-to tools work in it so I have to learn things from scratch. And my computer (which is about 4 years old and certainly not top of the line) really, really does not seem to like 3DL at all and I've had crashes when trying to render simple scenes or especially things like newer curly hair. 

I'd like to learn 3DL because I like learning anything about Daz, and I'm curious to see if there's ways in which it works better for certain effects than Iray. But if an artist is familiar with a particular toolset and doesn't know how to duplicate the results of the product they're selling satisfactorily for a different one, I think it's understandable that they might not try (especially since I imagine some PAs need to just go ahead and sell their work ASAP for income--not everyone has the luxury of taking time to problem solve for something that may or may not increase sales dramatically).

Edit: Thank you for the tips, @dracorn!

Sven Dullah

petefaure said:

 

On top of that, I wnder if you noticed that some characters (Wren and Billie, that I know of). Now, I got those characters becuase they do have 3Delight shader presets.... But there is a catch. Actually, I apply makeup lipstick etc, and then applied the 3delight shaders at the end....and, well, wait a minute, as soon as I applied the shader all the make up and lipstick colors were gone....Hmmmm, but if you reapply them the whole face will look as spooky-weird as all the new Iray-default G8 garbage looks like......

Ok so, as a 3DL user but not a G8 user, this gets me confused. If the characters have 3DL presets, why do you have to apply a 3DL shader after applying lipstick etc? That to me doesn't sound like 3DL presets.

dracorn

You are welcome, plasma_ring.  

The primary difference between Iray and 3DL is the lighting.  3DL lighting is easier to setup and understand. 

• Intensity controls it with 0 to 100% and the color is chosen with a color picker.  No messing with temperature and adding a bazillion zeros to luminosity to get it to work.  
• Shadows can be turned OFF.  That's a really cool feature which allows you to set up soft ambient lighting either by using multiple distant lights from different directions without conflicting shadows.  
• 3DL handles dark renders great without grain.  You can create fantastic dramatic lighting easily.
• The colors in 3DL can be a little oversaturated, but I happen to like that.  
• 3DL is best for non-photorealistic renders.  
• AoA's Advanced Spotlights have a feature you can't find in Iray - the ability to light or not light a designated surface.  This allowed me to shine colored spotlights on one figure without that color splashing onto another figure.  See my gallery (link in my signature) and open up the section Best 3Delight Renders and look at the render 'Mandala: Mermaids' for this effect.
• Interior lighting is MUCH easier to set up in 3DL and looks better.  Just remember to use multiple lights (again, the Advanced Daz Studio Light Bundle is invaluable here) Pick up a tutorial on 3DL lighting - this one is really good:   https://www.daz3d.com/daz-studio-illuminated-master-ds-lighting
• Setting up directional light from Distant Lights are MUCH easier than Iray HDRI's.  You add the distant light, and set the view to that light and point it and tada!  No messing around with dome rotation or having to buy a special product to see where the heck the sun is.  The downside is that you have to eyeball the distant light with your sunlight direction - but you can position a distant light and parent it to the skydome, so that when you rotate the skydome, the distant light moves with it.
• Skies are visible in the viewport.  That was a biggie for me.  
• Skydomes don't create their own light.  This can be a plus or a minus depending on what you want to do.  It's true that HDRI's will match lighting to your environment, but I've experienced problems with sunset Iray skies being too saturated and bathing the whole scene in an unrealistic orange.  With 3DL you will need to use a combination of colors on your Distant, Ambient and Spotlights to achieve a nice sunset/sunrise color, but once you get the hang of it, it's a cinch to set up and you have more control.
• Drawback to lighting - there is no emissive lighting.  You must trick 3DL to create it by setting the item surface Ambient to a bright color and then whatever percentage to make it bright, then placing a Linear Pointlight, Pointlight or Spotlight next to it to make it "glow."  On the plus side, the colors of your "glowing" surface are not blown out to a flat color like Iray does when you set the emissive luminance too high.  

Metallic Surfaces:

• 3DL requires a reflection map to create the metallic look.  Best 3DL Renders/Focal Point is an example of this.
• Gems don't necessarily look that good in 3DL - unless you are using this shader - it's awesome!   https://www.daz3d.com/metalized-glass-shaders-for-daz-studio

Hair

• Untill recently, hair rendered in Iray just looked terrible compared to 3DL.  That was one of reasons why I held off moving to Iray for so long.  On the flip side, 3DL doesn't have the selection of universal hair mats that Iray does.  You can manually load maps to hair surfaces with 3DL settings.  That, by the way, is how I can use my 3DL map-based shaders in Iray.

Good luck with your renders, and understand the learning curve is going to take you about 6 months before you really start feeling comfortable using Daz Studio.

dracorn

Sven Dullah said:

petefaure said:

 

On top of that, I wnder if you noticed that some characters (Wren and Billie, that I know of). Now, I got those characters becuase they do have 3Delight shader presets.... But there is a catch. Actually, I apply makeup lipstick etc, and then applied the 3delight shaders at the end....and, well, wait a minute, as soon as I applied the shader all the make up and lipstick colors were gone....Hmmmm, but if you reapply them the whole face will look as spooky-weird as all the new Iray-default G8 garbage looks like......

Ok so, as a 3DL user but not a G8 user, this gets me confused. If the characters have 3DL presets, why do you have to apply a 3DL shader after applying lipstick etc? That to me doesn't sound like 3DL presets.

I've seen that.  I have a character, Sasha G3F, has the '3Delight Shader Apply Last' feature.  The artist set up the materials presets as Iray, and then the 3DL shader converts them.  If you change the makeup, you will need to reapply the 3DL shader.  It's a time saver - so they don't have to create two sets of materials.

dracorn

So if you were to ask me which render engine I like better, I would say that depends.

I'm able to do more with Iray surfaces so I prefer that.  

The lighting in Iray is better and has more depth... but it is a PAIN to set up.  I have more Iray renders I have abandoned because I couldn't figure out the lighting.  It has a longer learning curve and indoor lighting is very tricky.  That's why tutorials are a must.

Oso3D

Huh, I find 3dl lighting harder than Iray, at least from an intuitive pov.

In Iray, if it’s light... it’s light. Not bright enough, make it brighter. It functions like, well, light.

But with 3dl, you have diffuse and specular lights, artificial behavior over space and distance with unnatural falloff. Beyond that is the technical element ofnhow light functions and all the compatibility concerns.

 

Now, it’s certainly easier to control some effects with 3dl lighting... but it’s only easier once you already know it very well.

Sven Dullah

3DL is best for non-photorealistic renders.  

Well that is your subjective viewpoint:) 3DL may be better at npr renders than IRay, but it is certainly capable of producing just as "realistic" renders as IRay, it's a matter of what shaders you use. (My subjective point of view:))

 

Skydomes don't create their own light.  This can be a plus or a minus depending on what you want to do.  It's true that HDRI's will match lighting to your environment, but I've experienced problems with sunset Iray skies being too saturated and bathing the whole scene in an unrealistic orange.  With 3DL you will need to use a combination of colors on your Distant, Ambient and Spotlights to achieve a nice sunset/sunrise color, but once you get the hang of it, it's a cinch to set up and you have more control.

Again, it's a matter of shaders. And there's more than one way to achieve a nice sunset in 3DL. Easiest way is using an HDRI. Also, if you prefer the "oldschool" way, you can perfectly well use the UE2 in ambient mode and load a nice background, both HDRI and plain jpgs will do fine, to get a colored global illumination that works with the sky.

Drawback to lighting - there is no emissive lighting.  You must trick 3DL to create it by setting the item surface Ambient to a bright color and then whatever percentage to make it bright, then placing a Linear Pointlight, Pointlight or Spotlight next to it to make it "glow."  On the plus side, the colors of your "glowing" surface are not blown out to a flat color like Iray does when you set the emissive luminance too high.  

Sorry dracorn, but this is just plain wrong. You go to your content library/light presets/Omnifreaker/Uberarea light and apply the Uberarea light base shader just like any shader for any surface you want to make emissive. You also didn't mention that, when using UE2 in bounce light mode, every ambient surface will emit light. And this is especially true when using 3DL with pathtracing.

3DL requires a reflection map to create the metallic look.  Best 3DL Renders/Focal Point is an example of this.

This is certainly not true either. Why fake the reflections when even the built into DS 3DL has true raytraced reflections? 

Gems don't necessarily look that good in 3DL - unless you are using this shader - it's awesome!   https://www.daz3d.com/metalized-glass-shaders-for-daz-studio

Again, as you said yourself, a matter of shaders being used. AoA metalized glass is nice, but there are other options.

Sven Dullah

dracorn said:

Sven Dullah said:

petefaure said:

 

On top of that, I wnder if you noticed that some characters (Wren and Billie, that I know of). Now, I got those characters becuase they do have 3Delight shader presets.... But there is a catch. Actually, I apply makeup lipstick etc, and then applied the 3delight shaders at the end....and, well, wait a minute, as soon as I applied the shader all the make up and lipstick colors were gone....Hmmmm, but if you reapply them the whole face will look as spooky-weird as all the new Iray-default G8 garbage looks like......

Ok so, as a 3DL user but not a G8 user, this gets me confused. If the characters have 3DL presets, why do you have to apply a 3DL shader after applying lipstick etc? That to me doesn't sound like 3DL presets.

I've seen that.  I have a character, Sasha G3F, has the '3Delight Shader Apply Last' feature.  The artist set up the materials presets as Iray, and then the 3DL shader converts them.  If you change the makeup, you will need to reapply the 3DL shader.  It's a time saver - so they don't have to create two sets of materials.

Ok, tks! So that makes me fully understand why the OP is upset:/

dracorn

Thanks for your comments, Sven Dullah.  I actually achieved some pretty realistic renders in 3DL - I wasn't saying that it wasn't good for that.  But it was easier to achieve the toon look in 3DL.  I went looking for Toonycam Pro but couldn't find it - I wonder if it had been withdrawn from the market.

Drawback to lighting - there is no emissive lighting.  

Sorry dracorn, but this is just plain wrong. You go to your content library/light presets/Omnifreaker/Uberarea light and apply the Uberarea light base shader just like any shader for any surface you want to make emissive. You also didn't mention that, when using UE2 in bounce light mode, every ambient surface will emit light. And this is especially true when using 3DL with pathtracing.

Well, my bad.  I hadn't really experimented with the Uberara lights - maybe I should have, LOL.  

I actually preferred working with AoA's Advanced Lighting with skydomes, interior light, etc.  I like the control better than with HDRI's.  I just had fits with some Iray HDRI's and couldn't correct the oversaturated light color.  I had a much better experience with 3DL that way.  

As far as the gem shaders, I was using a set I wasn't too happy with.  

I really loved how crisp the 3DL renders are (no grain in dark renders) as well as the beautiful colors.  I am a sucker for dramatic shadows and 3DL handles them especially well.  I'm still trying to get the hang of it in Iray.

Sven Dullah

dracorn said:

Thanks for your comments, Sven Dullah.  I actually achieved some pretty realistic renders in 3DL - I wasn't saying that it wasn't good for that.  But it was easier to achieve the toon look in 3DL.  I went looking for Toonycam Pro but couldn't find it - I wonder if it had been withdrawn from the market.

Drawback to lighting - there is no emissive lighting.  

Sorry dracorn, but this is just plain wrong. You go to your content library/light presets/Omnifreaker/Uberarea light and apply the Uberarea light base shader just like any shader for any surface you want to make emissive. You also didn't mention that, when using UE2 in bounce light mode, every ambient surface will emit light. And this is especially true when using 3DL with pathtracing.

Well, my bad.  I hadn't really experimented with the Uberara lights - maybe I should have, LOL.  

I actually preferred working with AoA's Advanced Lighting with skydomes, interior light, etc.  I like the control better than with HDRI's.  I just had fits with some Iray HDRI's and couldn't correct the oversaturated light color.  I had a much better experience with 3DL that way.  

As far as the gem shaders, I was using a set I wasn't too happy with.  

I really loved how crisp the 3DL renders are (no grain in dark renders) as well as the beautiful colors.  I am a sucker for dramatic shadows and 3DL handles them especially well.  I'm still trying to get the hang of it in Iray.

Yeah I also love the AoA lights, especially when rendering animation, couldn't really do without them:)