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99% of people who use computers want to just turn it on an use it. Just like 99% of car owners want to just turn it on and drive.
That 20-25% lower spec stated above is for the MAX-Q versions of the Pascal and Turing GPUs (thin laptops). The MXM card versions will run within a few MHz of the same boost clock as the desktop versions, and as long as the laptop has a good cooling setup it will hold that boost clock indefinately.
Why choose a laptop over a desktop? Here are a few reasons:
Work has you away from your home alot?
No space to setup a desktop computer?
Work from the convenience the couch or bed?
+1
+1
I seldom use my desktop, in fact about the only time I use it is to render animations (I can leave it running for days rendering while I work on my laptop). My desktop has about the same performance as my laptop, but I can't use it in the living room, while sitting in the recliner and watching TV with my wife. Taking the desktop to meetings, on trips, to do lectures on tours (both in hotel meeting rooms and while traveling on a large coach), or to give presentations is also not really too practical either (or even possible in many cases). All but one of the images in my gallery here were done on a laptop, I've rendered animations on my laptop, and had still image renders run for about 38 hours on my current laptop ..... and I haven't cooked is yet (almost 3 years old). In fact, I've been using laptops for 3D for almost 20 years now, and haven't cooked one yet
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While I can agree there are some advantages to desktops, for me personally, the advantages provided by a laptop can not be even remotely duplicated by the best desktop available. A well designed gaming or "workstation" laptop will not have heat issues with prolonged use (but it will get louder due to fan noise keeping it cool), and will have virtually the same performance to a desktop with similar specs. Yes, you will pay a bit more for a laptop, but for some people, the ability to move their work location at will, far out weighs the cost savings.
Lappies that will run desktop grade GPU's at full boost indefinitely do not exist. Nvidia has designed their GPU's for the last several generations to limit their boost based on GPU temp. Therefore it takes a very effective cooling setup, not remotedly possible on a laptop, to sustain maximum boost indefinitely. Anyone claiming that is woefully uninformed.
Beyond the ludicrous cost premium you'd pay to even remotely match a desktop there is the simple fact that lappies can not keep up with changing tech. I built my desktop 2 years ago. I upgraded the CPU last year when Ryzen 2000 came out and will likely do so again in the next couple of weeks. I added a Turing GPU over the winter to complement my 1080ti. I've added several HDD's, doubled the system RAM and upgraded the boot SSD in that time as well. And I still haven't spent what a laptop with a 1080ti cost in 2017.
Or, perhaps, they just don't care.
I'm not saying that laptops don't have their advantages, depending on the context, but IMO the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages in a professional context.
...again as a secondary system for when you are travelling or away from home and don't have access to your desktop, a notebook is not a bad idea, I just wouldn't use one as my primary work system any more. Personally I like sitting at adesk in a comfortable chair with my arms at the right height and angle in relation to the keyboard and trackball. I hated using the touch pad as it was so small small and you had to keep swiping it to continue moving the cursor. Yes you can add a mouse or trackball but again that takes up USB slots.
The only two upgrade routes with a notebook for most people are, memory (if it isn't already at the maximum limit supported), and a bigger SSD/HDD. Upgrading/replacing the PSU, GPU and CPU usually means having to take it in to a technician and pay a service charge in addition to the cost of the components.
I kind of don't care. I use both, because I refuse to give up any perfectly good possibilities.
The point I tried to make was that Laptops have a place. In fact, I said precisely that!
Note that I said "laptop", not "notebook" or "netbook". If you're thinking that I'm proposing he buy a mere notebook, then I can understand the confusion.
There was a day when I would have recommended that nobody use a laptop as an audio workstation. But times changed, heck, about 15 years ago, and about 15 times since then! Laptops now have a place in audio recording and mixing, and for many years, have even been used in live shows to drive music, lights, fog, change the guitar player's effects, play the piano parts, and well basically run the whole show. Even tablets and smartphones can do some very good recording.
Times change, and they have in this case. Laptops are serious tools now for medical, music, art, and so much more. They can and do have a place in graphic arts, even 3D graphic arts. Art school students use them heavily, yes even for the odd rendering project here or there. How else are you going to do your senior collaborative capstone project in a coffee shop?
Again, as I said above, if you are considering a laptop for graphic arts, do yourself a solid and buy a competent machine. Yes, it will cost you a lot of money, but an i3 processor and 8 GB of RAM is not competent for all of the 3D tasks you'll need to (or want to) do. I cannot stress that enough.
What do you mean by "far outweigh"? And although the original poster never mentioned a budget, he/she didn't ask for a "professional context" kind of machine either, but surely if he wants that, he could get it in a laptop form-factor. But only if he wants that.
Used Dell Precision 7710 with a Quadro P4000 8GB from a Precision 7720 that I installed. (Specs in my signature) Total cost $1000 after selling the Quadro M4000M that came installed
Dell offers the service manual free to download for all of their business class computers. This will take you step by step through the dissasembly and reassembly of your desktop or laptop.
While Iray rendering @ 100% GPU useage, the Quadro P4000 sits at 1252MHz and 60c. That is max boost for this 100w GPU at a nice cool 60c and the fans are not even close to running at 100%
A Well designed Gaming Laptop or Mobile Workstation will easily dissapate the heat generated by modern mobile GPUs.
Lol!
Interesting comment, since it's the professional context of using my laptop that forces the issue between laptop and desktop. I don't have the funds to get both a high end desktop and a high end laptop. So I have to get the machine that will allow me to go mobile, since going to meetings and showing live demos can't be done on a desktop. The last meeting I had where I needed to do live demos (in Blender) was in a restaurant, I don't think they would have accommodated my desktop at the table
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I realize for your professional situation, a laptop may not be the best option. But at the same time, for others a laptop may be the best, or only option, especially in cases where the budget doesn't allow for two high end machines.
Regardless of the system being a laptop or a desktop, a decent mouse will use a USB connection. I have a wireless mouse that I use on my portable laptop pad (actually a cut-down piece of an old desk, small enough to fit between the arms of my recliner, yet large enough for my mouse and mousepad). My laptop has 3.5Tb storage, and I have a 4Tb external USB drive that fits on my "laptop pad" as well (I can see a day, not to far away, that I'll need additional storage for a large project I'm working on, but I have room for another 4Tb drive). I also have a small graphics tablet that I use with the laptop that fits perfectly where the integrated touch pad for the mouse is. Sure, everything is fit into a small space, but it's pretty nice to kick back in the comfort of the recliner and watch TV while I work.
Bottom line, we all have our preferences, and personal reasons/circumstances for those preferences. For some, laptops are the best option, while for others desktops are the only way to go.
Things that already have been mentioned by others - expensive, difficult to expand, hard to repair / replace components yourself (if possible at all), limited performance, hard to cool effectively, no more than 1 graphics card (I believe), requires an extra monitor if you want a large screen, can't choose another keyboard unless you use an external.
Sure, you should choose what you want/need, but also know the advantages/disadvantages for the two types within the context you want to use it. I'm just saying I wouldn't choose a laptop for heavy 3D rendering for reasons already mentioned, if I had the choice.
I think you need to check out modern laptops
A properly built laptop does not have cooling issues. This is experience speaking, not what I've read somewhere. On my laptop the GPU (970M) never gets over 58c and my CPU (when CPU rendering) doesn't go over 72c, and no, it doesn't throttle to achieve those numbers, it is very efficiently cooled with one fan/heat-sink for the CPU and a separate fan/heat-sink for the GPU.
As for being difficult to expand or repair, this is sort of true. There are laptops being built now that have the ability for users to upgrade to both the CPU and GPU (I could upgrade the CPU and GPU on mine - within the same generation). My laptop came with a 1Tb HD, I've added a 512Gb SSD (and made it the boot drive) and added a 2Tb HD (was a 1 TB first, and recently upgraded). TBH, adding the additional drives was about as easy as adding them to a desktop. Agreed though, some components are more difficult to replace.
Sorry, but you can get laptops with dual GPU's, even RTX 2080 GPU's (and 128Gb of RAM). But, I don't believe you can get a 2080Ti in a laptop, so argeed, there are performance limitations there.
Larger displays would be nice, as would multiple displays. But it's a compromise that I've accepted and am used to now (though I could easily set up an external display if I really wanted). I also don't need another keyboard, since I have a full keyboard (I don't really like the funky ergonomic keyboards), and don't game so no need for a "special" gaming keyboard.
But as you say, it's all about choice. You have what works best for your situation, I have what works best for mine. But that doesn't mean I don't long for a new desktop with a 24 core Thread Ripper, quad 2080Ti's, and 128 Gb of RAM. I could definitely put that to great use!!!
....I prefer the expandability and ease of servicing that a workstation in a full size tower offers. I can upgrade and replace every component by myself with ease. My system also has more than double the number of USB ports as any of my notebooks do. I have space for eight internal drives so no mess of cables to connect to external devices (save for the backup) I upgraded to a Titan-X (not sure if there is a mobile version) which gives me a good amount of rendering overhead. It is also networked with a second desktop giving me a mini render farm (yes, I still do work with Carrara). On my budget I have to buy what I can when I can afford it, I definitely am unable to drop 1,900$ - 3,000$ in one lump which is why I leaned to DIY, something that is very difficult (and not recommended) to do with notebooks.
Oh and I have used the term "notebook" for many years to describe mobile computers (save for tablets and netbooks which are primarily designed for Net surfing, not real computing). Crikey I needed some form of insulation for my upper legs to place one there, and the lower angle for the arms and wrists became most uncomfortable after a short while, so it always ended up on teh surface of a table or desk anyway.
Again, all gaming and pro laptops have cooling issues. This is an established fact. They simply cannot run that tier of HW and keep cool enough to run the components at full capacity. There have been a few crazy projects that produced laptop styled machines, one weighed 20 lbs. and one had an external water cooling unit that added 10 lbs. to the 9 lb rig, that could but they cost nearly $10k USD.
BTW because this has gotten silly, all recent Nvidia cards are designed to downboost at any temp higher than ambient. The spec sheets that say some GPU has a maximum boost clock are simply using Nvidia supplied numbers for some scenario but, as has been well established by sub ambient OC's, those numbers are meaningless. The boost will go higher if the card is cool without applying more voltage or anything of the like. This is one of the reasons that datacenters have started installing water cooling systems.
IRAY?
or 3Delight?
I can presume Iray due to your suggestion of Nvidia, but it isn't obvious.
What is your budget? I presume they have been asked, but I don't want to read what others have posted as it can influence my decissions for a first post.
I dunno, I thought the quote I posted indicating that NVIDIA dropped the "M" (mobile) naming from their GPU's because the performance was not much different from the desktop versions, and in fact only 5-10% difference, was pretty clear.
So does anyone have any actual DAZ/Iray render benchmarks showing this is wrong? Or are we just talking about some fringe examples that don't really apply to us?
As I stated above 9 posts ago.....
My Dell Precision 7710 (the one in my signature block) will run Iray renders at full boost and maintain a nice cool 60c without ever cranking the fans anywhere near 100%.
And Here are some more examples:
1. My old Precision M6700 that i upgraded to a GTX 980M 8GB would render full boost all day and never got hot enough to even warm up the keyboard.
1a. Original GPU Quadro K5000M no heat or throttling issues
2. My even older Dell Precision M6600 with a Quadro 4000M ran so cool that I manualy overclocked it 300MHz and never had any issues with it.
3. Old Sager 15" gaming laptop with a GTX 580M no heat or throttlingissues
3a. Original GPU GTX 560M no heat or throttling issues.
4. Wife's current Dell inspiron G7 Gaming with a 6 core i7 and GTX 1060, no heat or throttling issues.
5 Wifes old CyberpowerPC Tracer 15 with a GTX 965M no heat or throttling issues.
@kenshaw011267 How about you show us some examples of dual fan gaming laptops or mobile workstations that are not slim form factor that have these cooling issues so that people know what brands and models to avoid?
Okay, I get it now. You're slicing individual hairs lengthwise. Yes, laptops get hot. But I think you're conflating "I feel heat" or "this 2080 isn't the fastest one available because it's made for a laptop" with "that's a cooling problem!"
Let me rephrase this. A computer build or purchase involves SEVERAL factors, each of which is more important to some people and less important to others. Cost, Serviceability, Convenience, Reliability, and Performance are five of these factors. For you, Performance is the holy grail. For Dusty, it may be mobility, which falls under the Convenience factor. For Kyoto, it's probably cost first, and whatever else comes at a given price point. He feels he can't balance cost with reliability and performance in a laptop form factor, so a laptop isn't for him. That's cool with me, he's a smart guy.
For me, price is less of a factor but the calculus is different platform by platform. If I'm buying a desktop, cost is probably the lowest factor. Sure, I'll shop around for parts, but ultimately, I won't cheap out on a build. If I'm buying a laptop for 3D, then I've already decided that your "cooling problems" are actually not a real issue given my use-case of that computer. Again, since I'm less cost-sensitive, I may be more likely to stack it up with tons of stuff so as to improve the other factors.
There is a benchmark scene out there; I forget who put it together. Once I get DS and all my stuff installed on the laptop, I plan to run it. Hey, I've been busy. Native Instruments Komplete 12 (plus all the orchestral instruments) took 4 days to download. And their installer, which is not DIM-like, forces you to re-download a product every time you want to reinstall something. It's dreadful; there's no way to keep a copy of the ISOs or zip-equivalents on a drive someplace. Never, ever give up DIM, folks.
Anyway, I'll run the benchmark when I can and we'll see where a single 2080 (not TI) falls in the mix of things.
So given what I wrote above, I think you're right about that, Dusty. Yeah, they sure can get hot to the touch when under load. But so does a particular audio interface I have (it has four processors inside it), so I won't conflate that with "they have cooling issues". Heat outside of the case is better than heat inside of the case, so I actually count that as a win. But again, this is all per my use-case noted above.
This is correct, some laptops will be more difficult to expand or repair. My own alienware has a discrete GPU, which means that it can be removed and replaced. I believe it also has a slotted CPU and slotted memory, so I could upgrade those things too.
Yes you CAN get a dual GPU laptop. It's expensive, yes. But you can get one. And you're right, you can get an RTX 2080 (but not TI) for a laptop. Dell does have an Alienware Graphic Amplifier which is basically an external box that can be loaded up with one GTX20xx TI card (a real desktop TI card). But that's even more expensive. And you have to be docked to take advantage of that, so for the mere mortal among us, of course there are performance limitations, and I think laptop users pretty much know this already.
But does this go so far as to be not "professional" or have "cooling problems"? I think that's a bit dramatic.
I would suggest that some gaming keyboards are actually great for anybody, whether you game, code, or just work late at night sometimes. I have a Corsair Strafe, which comes with software that allows me to configure the keys so that they light up in the way I need them for the task I'm working on. Different colors for different keys, and macros are available. I liked it so much that I even bought a second one and took the first one into the office for those times when I'm working late at night and the building has gone to sleep and shut off all the overhead lights.
I am also a technology glutton, so I will always long for both. And I'll probably upgrade the desktop (or build a new one) sometime next year. This year was the year for building a NAS and getting my backup strategy in order.
I'm okay with your preferences. I'm also okay with you HAVING a preference. You've decided what you like and that's cool with me. I just hope the feeling goes around, given use cases and reasonable expectations of current hardware technology. Laptops DO have a place. Maybe not in your home office, but definitely in my living room or my hotel room.
Yeah, the whole laptop discussion is one that will, IMO, never be resolved, for a number of reasons. But I suspect one of the biggest reasons, and one I can relate to, is what I call the "Myth of the Intutively Obvious". When something seems intutively obvious to me, it's easy to just assume it's true. And laptop performance is a perfect example.
A laptop GPU is inside a tiny enclosure, with a tiny fan. A desktop GPU is inside a big case with lots of case fans plus its own fan. There's nothing to discuss, right? There's no way on the planet that a GPU in a laptop can compete with the same model GPU in a desktop. That's intuitively obvious. End of story.
Well, no. There's a reason why high end gaming laptops with RTX/GTX GPU's cost so much, and a major part of that is that they need to put a ton of design and special parts into a custom cooling solution so that the laptop GPU won't melt. And especially in recent years, computer electronics manufacturers have been focusing on drastically improving efficiency by cutting power usage while increasing performance. I just saw a report on the new Ryzen CPU's, and apparently they draw far less power (like 50% or something?) but improve performance over the previous versions.
Of course there are practical limits, but whether those limits are meaningful to someone who is rendering in Studio and doesn't notice (or care) if it renders in 11 minutes vs. 10 minutes depends on each of our needs and expecations.
So especially with stuff as complex as computers and software we really need to be careful that we don't fall into the "Myth of the Intuitively Obvious", and instead just look at the facts and decide based on that.
I'll just deal with one because I happen to know it off the top of my head:
https://www.dell.com/community/Inspiron/Inspiron-G7-15-7588-insane-power-throttling/td-p/7302250
The Dell's as built by Dell have very serious power limits in place which keep the CPU from running full tilt, and its a mobile CPU to boot.
The GPU is a Max-Q which is significantly lower performance than the full 1060.
https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GTX-1060-Mobile-vs-Nvidia-GTX-1060-6GB/m164336vs3639
Do I need to keep saying this over and over again? Laptops cannot match desktop performance. It simply isn't possible without building something like the Predator 21X which cost $9k and weights 20lbs. and even it falls short of the same hardware in a standard case with standard power and cooling.
Not at all. Just prove it with some relevant facts showing what we're interested in, which is comparative render times for Studio/Iray scenes, not generalized and unproven statements.
i just wish i could find a system out of the box hat meets my uneducated requirements. I really dont want to invest weeks studying components. Like why I can;t find a case that accepts an optical drive and an extra USB port built in. simple things like that. I suppose though if I were to buy a full size case, that wouldn;t be an issue, but i dont want one of those huge monstrosities.
east with 32gig ram, a 2070 video card with 16 gig memory ... I know, there are none of those.
There is always some tradeoff with systems.
You site one random person who is ranting on the Dell community site. and btw/ There is probably some actual issue happening with that laptop or user caused damage. The Inspiron Gaming G7 has a dual fan setup with two heatpipes running from both heatsinks across the GPU and CPU. This machine also uses Nvidia Optimus, so the GTX 1060 is switched off in his useage scenarios. This means that all of that heatsink and fan goodness is dedicated to his CPU. So he's either choking the intake vents or has damaged the fans (or the laptop is stolen and he's an idiot because the dell support person said it was still registered a BestBuy being the owner)
So, the specific example you site is a max-Q variant. The whole concept behind the Max-Q is so more powerfull GPUs can fit in smaller thinner lighter laptops. Also the link that you shared from gpu.userbench.com claims that it is mobile GTX 1060 vs desktop 1060 6GB. This is very false!
If you scroll down the page to the "User Builds" section the seven listed laptops are all Max-Q versions. Any Laptop that has the Nvidia GPU soldered onto the motherboard is a MAX-Q chip regardless of what the manufacturer markets it as!
On a side note, think about this for a bit.
Do you have any personal experience owning a gaming laptop or mobile workstation? If so, please share your experience.
https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/
This site is invaluable when it comes time to build a new PC. I usually end up buying it all from amazon, but that site helps me pick out compatible parts more easily. 6 builds so far, and never had any issues with it picking out a incompatible part by accident.
My advice if you're looking to buy a pre-built PC is to first answer these questions:
Question 3 determines how important it is that you buy a fancy CPU. Most software nowadays doesn't need a fancy CPU, so you can usually save money and put it elsewhere.
Question 4 determines how much of a GPU you need. If you're mainly concerned with Iray rendering, and render times matter, get the most expensive GPU you can afford. I rarely suggest that people wait, but they're now introducing the NVIDIA RTX Super GPU's for less $$, so I'd wait until the HP's and Dell's get those in stock and ready.
Once you have that stuff figured out, I'd just head over to the HP or Dell or whatever website and use their built-in selector tool to build it for you. Also, assume you'll need at least 16GB of system RAM. You can always add later.
Agreed, backlit keyboards are awesome! My current laptop has one, with software to change the lighting scheme (no doubt not as customizable as yours). It really makes working in low light much better.
I did misspeak on the dual GTX 2080's in a laptop though. I was sure I had seen it when researching them a couple of months ago. Could be they did have them, but quit offering them due to lack of sales (no nvlink due to the size requirements for nvlink connectors, and of course no SLI so gamers would not be interested), or it could be simple memory creep (or creepy memory). However you can still get systems with dual 1080's.
While some may still want to argue (believe) that properly designed laptops still have heat issues and throttling, I know from years of personal/professional experience that a properly designed machine will not have any heat issues (my SSD and one HD create more surface heat on my current laptop than either the GPU or CPU, but it's still not hot to the touch) . I also know from personal/professional experience that poorly designed laptops (and thin laptops) can and typically do have serious heat related issues. Going forward, I will continue to make my purchasing decisions based on my own actual experience, knowledge, and needs. I only offer the information here to assist anyone else who may be interested in the ability to use a laptop for rendering with DS, Carrara, Blender, etc.
So .... I have shared my knowledge, and I'm done wasting everyone's time and filling this thread with more needless back and forth on the heat issues.
Not if the air flow through the case is sufficient. This is the most important thing of all, when it comes to air cooling - even the best CPU/GPU cooler is useless if the temperature inside the case is too high.
I have two 14" out fans on top of the case in my rendering machine, plus two 8" in at front and one 12" out at the back of the machine. When I don't render, I turn off the two 14" with a switch on the case, because the other fans keeps the temperature sufficiently low (GPU around 40° C). That's with a room temperature at around 30° C, which is normal here most of the time.
If I keep the two 14" fans turned off when rendering, the GPU temperature starts at around 60° C and slowly goes up to around 70° C and remains there. If I then turn on the 14" fans it slowly drops again. You can see the attached screenshots - the first shows the first 25 minutes with the 14" fans off where it increases to 69° C and remains stable there, the next shows the next 25 minutes with the fans on where it drops again to 64° C and remains stable there.
I had to replace one of the 14" fans a while ago btw, the replacement seems to be far less efficient than the original one (the other original one is really blowing a lot of hot air out I can feel). So cooling it's not optimal at the moment.
!!!!!! I pointed you to that thread because the replies explain that the CPU has severe power limits. I also posted a benchmark comparing the 1060 to the 1060 Max-Q. Why did that information get completely ignored? Why did this response actually claim that data wasn't presented?
As to this nonsense about laptops and desktop cooling, ROFLMAO. To put it as kindly as possible, nothing in this post is accurate.
I'm very tech challenged and my brain hurts trying to read computer specs (half of it is Greek to me), so I'm not going to be able to read through this whole thread, so please forgive me if a similar question has been asked already.
My question is, what would be the recommendation for updating my computer? I do a TON of rendering and I'd really love it if I can get faster renders so my computer and Daz Studio isn't tied up so often with rendering. I'm on a budget so I'm not sure if I'd be able to get a whole new computer. Should I just update my graphics card? Or do I need other updates like more RAM?
Here are my current specs:
Processor: Intel Core i7-6700K CPU 4.00 GHz
RAM: 16.0 GB
Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 970
I'm hoping to spend $1,500 or less. Less being the more hopeful option. lol
Is that doable or should I just wait and save up more and get a whole new system?
I disagree that a laptop can't have equivilent performance to a desktop (given an apples to apples comparison). It can, depending on the application. Obviously, you won't be able to get HPDT level of performance on a laptop nor will you be able to get the fully clocked graphics cards. But if you keep the specs modest, there can be parity with desktops. The caveat is the laptop will cost more money to reach the same performance. Tricker engineering is required to handle the thermals and logistics within a smaller space. And forget about upgrading. But if you need mobility or the space saving benefits, those are relatively small sacrifices. If you don't, then I see no need to buy a laptop because it is a lot easier to get super higher performance and expandability in a desktop. So the question is, do your mobility needs outweigh the performance limitations you will have with a laptop? If not, then scratch the laptop off your list... unless you just want to profile in a sexy Macbook or something.