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Skin tones - why isn't there a baseline?

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  • AJ2112AJ2112 Posts: 1,417
    edited February 2019

    Hi Fishtale, great examples, I do the same for all my base character upon purchase, I compare them in base lighting.  No skin surface alterations.  I haven't done G8 models yet.  Here's one I did for G2 models, when I was active with 3D.  The way I see it, if PA's don't do this, we should all do this for one another wink  

     

    G2 Models II.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 729K
    Post edited by AJ2112 on
  • AJ2112AJ2112 Posts: 1,417
    edited February 2019

    Another of G2 models.........  

     

    G2 Models comparison.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 782K
    Post edited by AJ2112 on
  • kenshaw011267kenshaw011267 Posts: 3,805
    edited February 2019

    I am not advocaying for standard skintones! I am advocating for letting the buyer know what they are getting out of the box. Sure you can mess around with the model to change the skintone but to be blunt I paid money for a character that is ready to go not one that needs substantial additional work since apparently most vendors have never heard that every woman isn't a size 2 with D cups. I already spend an hour or more trying to get the morphs right on my characters to then spend more time messing about getting the skin tone right, something at which I'm not all good at? No thanks, refund time.

    Post edited by kenshaw011267 on
  • Hurdy3DHurdy3D Posts: 1,076
    DustRider said:

    I definitely agree in principle that there should be a standard lighting scene that is used for character development/base promo rendering. Knowing what a character looks like under a standard lighting environment could be quite helpful.

    +1 for a standart lighting scene that must be used as a promo for every new character in the DAZ store.

  • DrGonzo62DrGonzo62 Posts: 382
    edited February 2019
    kenshaw011267 said:

    I am not advocaying for standard skintones! I am advocating for letting the buyer know what they are getting out of the box. Sure you can mess around with the model to change the skintone but to be blunt I paid money for a character that is ready to go not one that needs substantial additional work since apparently most vendors have never heard that every woman isn't a size 2 with D cups. I already spend an hour or more trying to get the morphs right on my characters to then spend more time messing about getting the skin tone right, something at which I'm not all good at? No thanks, refund time.

    Thank you.
    A character that looks great in the promos, and is trouble the minute you load it? Yeah, don't need that either.
    I sometimes find myself swapping character materials on a brand new figure to some other figures material, because then I know it will look right. Or at least better.
    Defying the purpose of getting an new character in the first place, and making them truly all look the same.
    But not by choice.

     

     

    Post edited by DrGonzo62 on
  • GreeboGreebo Posts: 166
    nemesis10 said:
    Greebo said:
    AJ2112 said:
     

    I agree characters should be shown as non tweaked, standard lighting, etc..... along with promo images.  Perfect example would be all PA's use Daz starter scene.  All is setup for base figure.      

    I totally agree with this.

    Aren't promos supposed to show us what we are buying?

    I just had a conversation with someone about why movie trailers often contain scenes that are not in the movie....  Promos are advertising and nothing more than that.  On the Daz3d site, there is documentation that describes the detailed contents of every product; I often point new people on how to use the product number to find out what is listed with the product so that. no, the scene, lighting cameras, hair, clothes, and props do not come with the product described as a figure texture....  The default Daz Studio scene doesno favors to dark skin (see "Shirley Card" link); may we have a default scene where dark skin shows detail and light skin looks like dead frog belly in a headlight?  I suspect there might be criticism that the skin looked so much better than the promos: "She's not grey-blue...she is flesh colored!".  The problem is there is no "default" scene that accurately lights light and dark skin...

    If the promo isn't accurate the buyer can return the product. Right?
    Well, if the buyer returns three products from the same PA because of 'Artistic' (Advertisment style) promo's, that's a problem.
    The buyer is going to be reluctant to purchase anything from that PA in future.
    And will turn to a rival PA who sells similar content.

    Who loses out in this scenario?

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,819
    edited February 2019
    Greebo said:
    nemesis10 said:
    Greebo said:
    AJ2112 said:
     

    I agree characters should be shown as non tweaked, standard lighting, etc..... along with promo images.  Perfect example would be all PA's use Daz starter scene.  All is setup for base figure.      

    I totally agree with this.

    Aren't promos supposed to show us what we are buying?

    I just had a conversation with someone about why movie trailers often contain scenes that are not in the movie....  Promos are advertising and nothing more than that.  On the Daz3d site, there is documentation that describes the detailed contents of every product; I often point new people on how to use the product number to find out what is listed with the product so that. no, the scene, lighting cameras, hair, clothes, and props do not come with the product described as a figure texture....  The default Daz Studio scene doesno favors to dark skin (see "Shirley Card" link); may we have a default scene where dark skin shows detail and light skin looks like dead frog belly in a headlight?  I suspect there might be criticism that the skin looked so much better than the promos: "She's not grey-blue...she is flesh colored!".  The problem is there is no "default" scene that accurately lights light and dark skin...

    If the promo isn't accurate the buyer can return the product. Right?
    Well, if the buyer returns three products from the same PA because of 'Artistic' (Advertisment style) promo's, that's a problem.
    The buyer is going to be reluctant to purchase anything from that PA in future.
    And will turn to a rival PA who sells similar content.

    Who loses out in this scenario?

    That is part of the learning curve for a PA (and why so many characters look so similar as they try to appeal to a median) and the learning curve of the customer (and why customers insist on characters who look similar).  In any case, I tried an experiment where I opened a default Daz Studio scene, added the sun dial and two characters, https://www.daz3d.com/uchenna-for-genesis-8-female/  and https://www.daz3d.com/psionne--psion-suit-for-genesis-8-females who represent two diffrent directions in skin color.  I then rendered and got this result which I think doesn't show the qualities of Uchenna: 

    example.jpg
    914 x 471 - 71K
    Post edited by nemesis10 on
  • kenshaw011267kenshaw011267 Posts: 3,805

    IMO you rieed very hard to make them both look bad. No one is saying render the figures in shadow! I've said this three times now and don't know how to be clearer, Neutral background and 5600k light. That's what we're asking for. Angle of the light and position of the camera would be up to the vendor. Adjust that render so the light is on the character's faces and see if it's not noticeably better for both. BTW stark white isn't a neutral background.

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,819
    kenshaw011267 said:

    IMO you rieed very hard to make them both look bad. No one is saying render the figures in shadow! I've said this three times now and don't know how to be clearer, Neutral background and 5600k light. That's what we're asking for. Angle of the light and position of the camera would be up to the vendor. Adjust that render so the light is on the character's faces and see if it's not noticeably better for both. BTW stark white isn't a neutral background.

    I definitely did not try to make them look bad; I simply took things out of the default daz set.  I will try again with your settings to see if the models are presented in an equitable way and report back. 

  • AlmightyQUESTAlmightyQUEST Posts: 2,006

    5600K, only difference is the Lumens (and I bumped the camera slightly askew in one, hate when the cursor doesn't go to the name field of the render by default...)

    Which is the correct one?

    version1.png
    1200 x 900 - 1M
    version2.png
    1200 x 900 - 866K
  • GreeboGreebo Posts: 166
    edited February 2019
    nemesis10 said:
    kenshaw011267 said:

    IMO you rieed very hard to make them both look bad. No one is saying render the figures in shadow! I've said this three times now and don't know how to be clearer, Neutral background and 5600k light. That's what we're asking for. Angle of the light and position of the camera would be up to the vendor. Adjust that render so the light is on the character's faces and see if it's not noticeably better for both. BTW stark white isn't a neutral background.

    I definitely did not try to make them look bad; I simply took things out of the default daz set.  I will try again with your settings to see if the models are presented in an equitable way and report back. 

    You picked the worst position for the sun, I've never seen such an abysmal lighting set up. (But it did make me smile - Cheers!)

    BTW: You still haven't answered my question:

    Who loses out (On refunded products)?

    Post edited by Greebo on
  • kenshaw011267kenshaw011267 Posts: 3,805
    AlmightyQUEST said:

    5600K, only difference is the Lumens (and I bumped the camera slightly askew in one, hate when the cursor doesn't go to the name field of the render by default...)

    Which is the correct one?

    Doesn't matter to me. If vendors want to oversatuarate their own renders intentionally I guess they'll sell fewer items. This has turned into an exercise of "how bad can I make a render look while pretending to not understand what the other side is asking for" and tbh it got old a page back.

    These same vendors are able to present very nice renders of these models when they make promos that hide the serious issues with their products. I'm sure if Daz mandates a render or two with a specific light color and background they can cope with that. 

  • RawArtRawArt Posts: 6,079

    I don't know where the idea that promos are not accuarate or they are doctored up comes from....All promos are actual renders made by pa's.

    If there is any post work done to them, it would be very minor. We know customers want an accuarte idea of that the character looks like. If we were to misrepresent anything, people would stop buying out products. We know this very well, so nothing is dont to fake the promos.

    Promos are made to both show the product and inspire artists into wanting to use that product.

     

  • GreeboGreebo Posts: 166

    When I start DS the Iray render setting defaults to the map: DTHDR-RuinsB-500.hdr
    Do you use this in your promos?
    I guess all we're asking is that you and other PAs make one promo using the standard settings.
    Is this so much to ask? (I'm not being nasty, I'm just asking is all)
    I don't get where all the resistance is coming from...

  • chevybabe25chevybabe25 Posts: 1,320
    edited February 2019

    Every single human being is different. Pantone did a skin tone chart with over 100 tones and I can guarantee that is only scratching the surface.  While I am sure you would like them to kind of "match" why not just use the same texture map on the other figures and change out other distinct things like eyebrows, eyes, freckles etc?  I feel like that would be way easier than tweeking every single character by so many different artists with so many unique styles.

     

    Post edited by chevybabe25 on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,328

    Sadly this seems to have become an exercise in talking past each other, so it is being locked.

This discussion has been closed.