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Maybe demographic wasn't the right word. I thought of the CG demographic as a whole but within that there is a niche Daz demographic that does not care about animation for the most part. Maybe they would though, if it wasn't such a pain in the ass.
That's it, I think. I use Source Filmmaker for animation and Daz for stills. Animating in Daz is essentially useless even with the graphmate / keymate addons. Lacking even the basic ability to cut and paste keys makes the whole process a nightmare. If there was a smooth, integeated animation system I'm sure we'd see plenty of people jumping into it.
I doubt it. The biggest complaint I've seen my many years here is that animation takes too long to render. The make-a-picture crowd will probably never change.
Isn't that the whole basis of this discussion though? Real time rendering makes that issue moot. And if the rumors around the speed of new Optix /w RT cores is true render times in Daz might be dropping a lot.
Animation is also just very laborious, no matter the tools. Not many single CG artists have the time or motivation to do that. A still render is enough work already but way more managable. I'd call demographics again too, because those animators that actually have the skills to pull something like that off are not going to do this in Daz Studio to begin with.
No...this is False....incorrect and quite misleading
Copying and pasting keys with the graphmate / keymate addons
is the same as in C4D,Lightwave3D (which I own) and any other Character
animation system.
That ,my friend, is a matter of opinion:
Observe ,three different walks styles in three different directions in seconds
using whatever animation I chose to store on any IcloneAvatar
for right click retrieval and seamless blending.
Some tools ( like poser)
are more "laborious" than others.
Well yeah, but someone had to create or motion capture those animations first. If we're talking character animation, what about facial expressions? Lip sync? Clothing and hair that needs to properly animate? All the other stuff like sound effects, music? Then what is all that going to do unless you create a full blown short movie of at least 24 frames per second? And then you need to render it all. Edit, composite it all. Yes, it's laborious as hell.
Do you really think so? Maybe I have just been creating animation with daz studio so long and don't use anything else but poser and daz for animation so i really don't have anything else to compare it too.
This animations took me 3 days from start to finish. I rendered it in Iray with a 980 ti using a water simulations plugin. But like i said All I use is daz and poser so i really have no other animation experiences to compare renders & creation times too.
Ha, that's great! It did take 3 days though. Imagine making just a still render of the fish tank and how much less time that would have taken and you can see how much more laborious it was. And that's without complicated character animation or facial expressions and such things.
You have to take in consideration that each key frame is a rendered image. so if you have 3000 images to render our a 10 minute film . I would imagine it would take about the same amount of time no matter what software or app you use. that is why I always thought that realtime preview would great in saving set up time. . but the rendering is still the same. I always believed rendering is more hardware depended than software. Isn't it?
Oh sure. I didn't really mean rendering, just the work to create it all. Did you mean rendering took 3 days?
I was talking about The rendering and the hand keyframe animation, total 8 scenes 5 plus seconds long .1 scene with the fluidios plugins was 10 seconds long.. plus post work all took 3 days
The only thing drag and drop for animation in daz is aniblocks on the animate2 timeline . & is a very old system and needs improvement badly in the IK/FK area others wises I love using daz for animation, keymate makes it easy to hand key frame animation.
I don't know, like Outrider42 said I don't know that these new real-time rendering capabilities won't inspire someone to create a UI into an asset DB and then methodically create an asset store like DAZ 3D & Renderosity with Blender/MakeHuman as a basis and then create a UI to render & do the simpler DAZ Studio things.
Game Developers and Animators need to storyboard which is in essence what DAZ Studio is so maybe in the future. There are assets in the Unity asset store that do similar but I've yet to even investigate them. Unity is growing massively in scope as to what it can do.
One thing Unity really lacks for is 'bought asset management'. You think DAZ Studio Content Tab or SmartContent is slow and bad, Unity's isn't much more then dumping your purchased assets on disk, doing a realtime directory listing, and then putting the contents of that directory listing into a HTML page. Sort of like your DIM zip files to be listed in DIM is very slow once you get 1000 or more DAZ 3D products bought.
I think someone should mention the licensing aspect.
Daz sells you 3D content. They keep the 3D content and you get to OWN the 2D output.
Every gaming engine I've researched so far has sold or given you the 3D content and you don't own either.
The 2D rapidily-flipping animations or the 2D images or the 3D asset.
That entire pipeline is crippled once I read "You can do anything, long as it's for personal use". So all those wonderful animations...look like they are going to stay cool demos for promotional uses.
THAT is why I chose to use Daz assets and not gamer assets.
We're talking about access to an animation environment + rendering engine + ROYALTY FREE ASSETS.
It's banking on the 2D crowd switching over to 3D animation - if it was suddenly easy and fast enough (Which it will never be).
And I say never because of a continuously-advancing scale. Just as cards get faster, games get more intensive and demanding.
Give us more power and you'll get more polygons.....more lighting calculations....more atmospherics etc....
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I would love, love, love a Daz-Iray-render to be done in real time. As simple as compose and save.
Not true, you can use the 'free' assets, 2D & 3D, Unity gives you ican be used n commercial games IFF Unity is the engine used to make the game and likewise UE4. If you buy a 3D or 2D asset you can use it in another game engine. Source code that you buy you have to read the license terms on a product by product basis although most times one doesn't want to spend time porting code from one game engine to another so its better, faster, less mistake prone, to buy the same code functionally in the other game engine's asset store. Same with some 3D or 2D assets too, if the assets or very similar are available in both asset stores.
I can use the DAZ 3D content I've licensed in UE4 or Unity or elsewhere as you said.
MakeHuman/Blender content that is given away you have to read each license individually for each product given away that you consider using.
I hope so. I'd like to find a way to get my Daz Library to render in near-real-time.
That's the Holy Grail.
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Daz moderators HATE speculation.
So I will say If I was on the board and the unimaginable happened that a better rendering engine came out ....
I would build a bridge or license it or license it until we came up with our own similar thing.
Or just switch to the next newest thing.
The Ka-BlammoPather_Rendering_Engine..... and one vendor makes a conversion tool. From3Delight-to Iray- to Ka-BlammoPather....Materials.
Indeed it is much more labor compared to Clicking and loading a genesis girl
Clicking and loading her pose& shape/skin.
and rendering one single solitary image.
However we animated filmmakers can tell stories and communicate narratives
in way no portrait or pin-up chick render ,ever could
for us it is worth the labor.
No that is the whole point of this thread I believe.
Realtime means instant realization of your story
no waiting for frames to render that is how the ADAM series was made
in REALTIME in Unity.
However we animated filmmakers can tell stories and communicate narratives
in way no portrait or pin-up chick render ,ever could
That's a dangerous game of Rock, Paper, Scissors,,,,lol cheap swipe at the ubiquitous Daz-Heeled-Heroine, included,. double lol
Images -- > Movies ---> Books --> Images
Yeah, the rendering was the only thing that was real time though.The rest was an immense amount of work
As is anything worthwhile IMHO.
I actually enjoy the work even when modeling my own unique ,one off ,clothing
for G2/G3 to wear in an animation shot to further My narrative.
Solving creative challenges is good brain exercise for us over 55 crowd.
One can not make a movie with ONE single image ,no matter how young ,white and sexy the girl depicted, may be
and you can not author a novel with ONE single word not matter how well written the word .
For every consumer of visual entertainment content there must to be a
certain segment of the population doing the work of producing.
There is already an Unreal Studio which uses the Unreal Engine for doing scene assembly/rendering/real time walk throughs. https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/studio The target market is product and architectural visualization with a strong focus on partnerships with DCC tool providers for importing 3d models. I haven't used it personally so I can't say how it does asset library management. They have also created a section in the Unreal Marketplace for architectural visualization products so there is that too. Could DAZ create a bridge to Unreal Studio, sure, but would it be worth it? The companies using it for product/architectural visualization don't need hires lingerie models so probably not the target market.
Bingo! My thoughts exactly.
I agree, the new tech is awesome... especially from a consumer POV, even game studios. Personally I don't see any benefit to DAZ though. See I work in game development and interact with gaming communities daily when not working with my projects in this area. In my experience the majority of users I see in the gaming communities are all about what they can get for free or share with others which hurts studios and small developers. Since it's amazingly easy to export rigged DAZ assets out in .FBX format, they show up all over the place and are shared everywhere I go. All this new tech does it make more users want to skirt eulas and copyright and use DAZ models in game engines instead of DS. Bottom line, Unity and Unreal win, Daz loses. Reallusion is already reaping the rewards from DAZ with CC3 and iClone
Daz really should get in on this for DS or another in house app that fully supports this new tech and it's genesis figures. It would be a great day when animation users find DS as a viable option instead of using other apps for animation like Unity, SFM or Maya. In my perfect world scenario, DAZ overhauls their game asset division (Morph3D) to be a viable option for users wanting game assets instead of coming here. They then get rid of the FBX export option in DS and overhaul DS to be more competitive with higher end apps (I am down with a paid version of DS with more features). Adding these new features to DS would thrill many of the existing demographics and chances are bring in more users which is what would boost sales for PAs and even bring in more new PAs..
I believe that I can fairly call myself an ordinary user of DAZ Studio and content. I am not a content creator, at least not a commercial content creator, nor am I a commercial artist, producing renders for resale. So, your basic hobbyist that uses the software and content for fun. From my perspective there seems to be an underlying thread of proselytizing, bordering on evangelism, associated with many of the posts. Stating a position or opinion is perfectly fine, but doing so in a way that even suggests "this is what I believe and you should, too" is a step too far. I, like most users, do not really require anyone to tell me what I need and want. I already know that better than anyone.
And as for telling stories, that would depend entirely upon the image, IMO. Yes, endless pseudo-photoreal portrait renders can get boring in their standard incarnation, but I believe that that is driven by a fascination with the technology and what it can do, and I think that once that has settled down, the images will start to be more interesting. In the meantime, there are many folks producing many wonderful still images that do, in fact, tell stories. What that story might be rests entirely within the imagination of the viewer, of course, in much the same way that a reader visualizes a novel that they read. Imagination fills in the missing frames. Not everything needs to be a video. That just requires less imagination on the part of the viewer.
One can not make a movie with ONE single image ,no matter how young ,white and sexy the girl depicted, may be
and you can not author a novel with ONE single word not matter how well written the word .
PM sent. I just get tired of all my posts getting deleted.
Back to this Unreal Engine Topic:
All of them really. It takes a few hours to think up & set up an original scene & then another few hours to render the new scene at a high quality & high resolution.
More on Adam follows ups, episode 2 & 3, movie making: https://unity.com/madewith/adam
and more on the rendering: https://blogs.unity3d.com/2018/01/24/rendering-and-shading-in-adam-episode-3/
I have to agree with bluejaunte. Animation can be a tremendously arduous and time consuming process if you take in mind the whole scope of production: dynamics, cloth and hair simulations, compositing and rendering. On the other hand if you limit your scope to relatively simple animation, such as Ivy’s nice examples, it can be manageable. Daz users will likely be in the simple animation category. What I find exciting is that real-time rendering will greatly reduce the lookdev and final rendering process of the pipeline. Just keep in mind that rendering is by no means the most time consuming part and it is done by the computer anyways. By far, the bottleneck in an animation production is the animating work itself. This cannot be handed over to a machine and although there are quite a few useful tools to save time, it is still very labor intensive. A skilled artist, or more likely many, is still needed. Professional animation work is typically more labor intensive than a live action film. Real-time rendering won’t change that very much. I’m not blown away by real-time animation tech for this reason.
On the other hand, for animators of simple short clips, the probable user of Daz Studio, real-time will have a much bigger impact on the time required to produce an animated short.
By was he way, that very impressive ADAM series rendered in the Unity Engine was the result of months of painstaking work by the guys at Unity and the production team that made movies like District 9. Only the rendering and some of the procedural effects were done in Unity. Do not be fooled, this was a heavy duty production and it was in no way a simple project. Rendering is not a panacea that magically transforms a project into a superstar. It is simply the final stage of a marathon process, which this definitely was. In my opinion, most casual users put an unbalanced emphasis on rendering. If the production isn’t handled with care and attention, the renderer won’t save it. ADAM is not a product of its rendering. It is a product of the very skilled artists that were involved.
Well said. Those are details often never mentioned. And I still see quality issues with the Real Time rendering for animation (shimmer, etc.) and that's still going to be an issue probably requiring a bigger investment in software and equipment.