What do people here make of requests for paid work?

Hermit Crab

Hi folks, I'm raising this topic out of simple curiosity as to what others' thoughts and opinions are.

I need to say at the outset that I am absolutely not discussing any particular request on this forum or any particular person's response.  I read and sometimes contribute to forums for DAZ and several other 3d Software providers.  The same kind of thing crops up quite often and it goes like this:

OP: Hi, I'm new here and need to work with someone skilled and experienced for my XYZ project ... I expect to pay but all this is new to me.  Please get in touch so that we can discuss.

First reply.  Are you kidding?  Have you won the lottery?  Also, have you looked into the legalities of your proposal?

My comment at this point:  Yes, I'm being very harsh in the parody above and stress that I am NOT getting at anyone here.  To repeat: this scenario occurs regularly on all sites I frequently visit.

Next reply: twice as negative.

Third reply: negative, negative, negative...

By the sixth reply we see that 560 visitors have viewed the discussion but we hear nothing more from the OP.

Or have I got it all wrong?  Perhaps many very happy working partnerships take place in private to everyone's satisfaction.  I hope so.

Also I need to confess that I, too, view such threads with interest because on occasion I think even I could build a 3d version of the person's own logo or whatever some of the simpler requests are and I would only look for token payment for an easy job.

But people differ in nature and entering a discussion about work and payment would be harder for me than for some others so I stay out of it. Also, I don't have sufficient skill for most of the requests.

It's also easy to understand that professionals are not happy to receive less than they are due for their skills and it doesn't help them to have prices undermined by amateurs.  I believe that in the big 3d industry out there, even the most skilled professionals need to fight their corner to ensure that their skills are recognised and valued in hard cash.  But sometimes a school or local charity representative comes here or to similar sites to make a request that could be fulfilled by many of us beginners.

Now this is DAZ's site for DAZ's business, so it is nice that a few requests a year are actually tolerated.  But I have to admit that in general (here or elsewhere) making requests for paid work seems to turn out to be a bad experience for the person wanting some work done or it is at least fruitless.  I get the impression that often they are discouraged and go away disappointed.  I sometimes wonder whether people who are not even remotely considering doing the work are the ones replying to the newcomer.

I'd love to know what others think and sincerely hope that no-one feels attacked here because no attack on anyone is intended.  There are so many instances of people being kind, helpful, generous on this and other forums that what I've described above (when it happens) seems to be a bit of an anomaly to me.

I'll duck anyway.

edited for spelling

Chohole

Quite a few of the requests are where the OP has made, say for arguments sake, a dress.  With the software that is available nowadays that is not a hard job.  But they are then looking for a partner or partners to help them make it usable in DS. Remember most of the posts of this sort have been made before dForce arrived on the scene.  So we are talking about rigging this clothing item to make it usable.   Rigging is the worst part of the job.  Followed by texturing.   I don't mean just flood filling ares with shaders,  I mean texturing.  I know how long that part takes. You only have to visit my site to see what I am talking about.

I was self employed for a while in real life. producing content for a 3d store works in just the same way. You have to work out how many hours work a job is going to take,  and then you have to work out what your hourly rate is, adding in all the stuff you have to pay out of your income  ie taxes, insurance etc etc. then you multiply one by the other and you get a figure. You also have to add a certain amount for the power usage, wear and tear on machinary (ie computers) and cost of programs used.   This is going to appear quite high to many people, who simply do not appreciate just how much is involved in producing a product for the marketplace.

TheRetiredSailor

I largely ignore these requests.  While I do some modelling for my own purposes, I don't want to be invovled in commercial work.  

 

FSMCDesigns

I think the main reason that users never return to a thread when they ask such questions is that the reality of how much it might cost and/or the time frame invloved overwhelms them. The majority of 3D users have no clue what is involved and what market costs might be and they are usually very much higher than they expected, especially if they are used to DAZ prices when are much, much lower than the 3dmarket value.

it also takes a fair bit of back and forth communication just to get to a serious deal before a serious project can usually get started.

I see a few requests from users wanting items, but rarely see serious responses, so maybe it just doesn't happen much that a PA or wannabe PA takes anyone up on it. Also, props are much easier to create than rigged clothing

McGyver

I get what you are saying... Sometimes people are a little harsh and tend to react negatively to a simple question.

Sometimes that happens here, but mostly people try to be helpful and explain that it's not a cheap proposal if they want professional results.

Sometimes people here have even offered to make the model if the OP is willing to share it as a freebie... Over time I think the last one has become less common... Maybe people have less free time or they've been soured on the experience.

I know from the work I do, that often non-professional people have no idea what a fair price is and often they make an offer that is ridiculously low... I remind myself that when I first started doing what I do, I had no idea what to charge and severely undercut my own price for a job.

Sometimes people get offended when they think someone is looking to take advantage of them or undervaluing their work... I guess for most artists, that has happened a few times and they get annoyed by it.

I think people should remember that it's hard for someone looking to hire a model maker (or CGI artist) because there are no pricing guidelines or ways for regular people to figure out a good offer price.

Hermit Crab

Thanks, each of you, for the interesting replies.

I suppose what prompted my (verbose) question was the feeling that people, as FSMCDesigns said, get overwhelmed by the realisation of the cost of their request and I feel kind of sorry to see that.  Also I wonder how many people out there aspire to some extent to doing some paid work.

The kind of requests Chohole referred to do often arise here but I was maybe thinking more of posts on other sites I visit.   Hoping not to be too specific I've seen requests where someone will refer to their very accomplished 2d comic or published children's series and will be offering plenty of future work to the right person who can help them move into 3d.  Or an artist wants some things made in 3d as a reference for his/her 2d work.  I admit that I go through the same round of ... that would be great, if only I had the skill, if only I had a portfolio,  I must really work at this, next time I'll try to be ready... dream, dream, dream, ha ha ha.

Yet most people who are skilled and experienced enough for such a deal, might already be doing well enough without needing that partnership and I for one wonder how the request panned out - if no-one replied.

What you say McGyver (and others) does make perfect sense.

edited to correct spelling of McGyver's name!

 

Hermit Crab

I must thank McGyver also for balancing out my harsh parody of the way requests are replied to.  Without doubt there are plenty of times when people do give considered advice and do try to be helpful. 

Serene Night

I don't have time for commision work.

Plus, I don't like dealing with art buyers. Most of the time they want something that is just not my area of interest, get unhappy when I say, sorry, I'm not into/don't illustrate kids/girls/hot chix/rabid monkeys. Did you look at my art? Thats what I illustrate.

Its easier for me not to. Plus, I make plenty of freebie in the areas of my interests.

 

rono64

The reason people respond very negative is simple, Artists get all kinds of requests, some good, some just nuts.

Basically no one ever wants to pay a reasonable price, they think it's "easy".

JonnyRay

This situation isn't unique to 3D. My ex-wife tried making cakes for people for a while. She was very good at it and made some amazing creations. However what she found was that most people wanted a custom cake for about what they would pay for a standard sheet cake at a grocery store.

I usually try not to be rude in response to those sorts of requests as I understand it's just because they don't know the details of what they're asking.

What I try to do instead is to suggest alternatives that they may not understand. Like the idea of retexturing or morphing something that already exists. Or, if they really need something unique and plan to use it say in a game, that there are other forums / boards where people looking for that kind of work could be found more readily than here. In these forums, the people with the skills to accomplish what they want are probably already working on their own projects and you're asking them to give up that income to work on a personal one-off project.

Sven Dullah

No harm in asking IMO:)

Linwelly

When somebody comes here with rather scarce information on the request they have and their background, they look and sound unprofessional. And its a wise precaution not to jump at those offers as they might turn out to be a fraud of some sort. When the OP of such a request comes back to clarify, it's a sign that they can be taken more serious and are willing to learn the ropes of dealing out such requests. Someone who doesn't come back probably never was serious about it.

A request that gives a resonable insight on the deal and the OP will most probably get their respones as a PM and probably often find someone taking it

Hermit Crab

Thanks to all who have given their thoughts on something I was curious about.

I don't disagree with any of the points of view and can see that maybe I was a bit too critical in my opening post.  I think that artistic standards are very high at DAZ and work of high quality will come at a higher than perhaps expected price - which is fair enough for reasons given by Chohole and others.

As other posters have explained, the person making the request is an unknown and some level of caution is needed for both parties before deciding to get involved.

JonnyRay, your ex-wife's experience with cakes sound similar to what happens to members of art clubs.  Relatives and friends look through their paintings and expect to get one for free.  In this case it isn't often the money that matters, because it's a hobby and it's friends but the artist has striven to bring that painting to life from an idea or from a striking scene.  The visitor thinks it's OK just to be able to walk off with it and it's hard to refuse.  I'll tell you what I'm like.  Last January I bought some Azelias which flowered indoors right up to early summer when I was going on holiday.  I saw my neighbour and told her I was going off on holiday and I had these plants... "Oh, those are beautiful, she said, they're going to look great on either side of my door ... thank you so much"   I was only going to ask her to water them for me!  But we get on well and I hadn't the heart to tell her.  This year I'll buy more. 

Thanks again for your replies.

 

  

magog_a4eb71ab

If I really want something made that I'm unable to do myself and/or learn how to do it myself, I probably wouldn't even bother with it. The reason being is if I'm not going to be making money using it, there's no point in spending the extra money for it unless I have money to throw away. There's a big difference in buying a custom-made item out of the Daz marketplace(which many others are also purchasing) and buying a professional's time to one-time custom-make a special object, character, prop, etc, for one's self. Depending on the project, it could cost 100x or more compared to the pricing of stuff here at Daz.

Spit

I think there can be a misunderstanding if one looks only at the prices of products in the store--as if only one customer buys any single product and therefore that price is in the ballpark of what a vendor would charge to make one exclusively for an individual.

ArtAngel

I recently made such a request and found the responses to be positive and helpful by those community members who responded to the thread. I personally think the acccomplished artists assume one will not be willing to pay for value and tend to ignore such requests. My assumption is they assume everyone expects to pay the same price as an instore product, and that requests for paid work are made by ignorant people who are unaware of the fact that a product in store is sold at a low base line to accommodate mass production purchases, whereas a commissioned project is a one time sale and and such has a much higher price threshold, because the mass market income projections have to come from one source - the person requesting the commissioned art.  From personal experience I have found PA's tend to ignore such requests even when made via a form at their official websites, especially if you mention you discovered them (the artist) here at Daz. Despite this, I feel it is worth posting a request, because there is always a chance one response will result in a win win outcome.

Hermit Crab

I think the misunderstanding you refer to, Spit, probably sums up the situation in many cases and being made aware of it may leave a person who had a payment price in mind feeling disappointed and maybe a bit crestfallen.

Your view, magog_a4eb71ab, can't be faulted because you know the situation and have a correct idea of costs.

Thanks, ArtAngel, for contributing and for your optimistic attitude.  I hope you get good results from any future request.  It is probably quite harrowing to wave money out there! 

I imagine that busy artists, already making money and having a ton of things to finish already, don't consider one-off requests - they may not even see them.  My embarrassment is growing that I suggested in my opening post that would-be customers are sent away rudely.  But, hey, I did mention that I look at posts from other sites and that this place is here for DAZ's business.

Nevertheless, the one thing that I thought I'd hear from the replies is that some people here are on the brink of trying to break into making some sales and wonder whether to reply to requests.  I definitely have on some occasions on sites where standards are generally less exacting than here.

OK I'll give an example (not of less exacting standards but of a request I saw): a long while back there was a post, not here, of a studio being set up with Iclone as the main software and they wanted to recruit experienced Iclone animators.  My tiny mind went whirring along the lines of 'maybe they could use some of the assets I could model, maybe I should dig out some of the stuff I've done and who knows they might give me something to do as a trial'.

No-one, including me, replied to them and they never returned.  I wonder how many people, like me, saw the request and hesitated to put themselves forward?  (I've been using Iclone since the earliest versions came out on trial).