About expansion of demographics
akmerlow
Posts: 1,124
in The Commons
Had a talk recently with someone, and i've been told how most of DAZ/Poser auditory are people, who started with it in early-to-mid 2000s, if not since 90s. And that generally "younger generations" arent that much interested (they are more about real time graphics for games and/or VR ; or more about modelling rather than "directing/composing" scenes). What do you think of that? How do we get more "fresh blood"?
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The vast majority of people who use Daz don't talk about using Daz, nor do they get involved in the community. On the other hand though, the userbase has grown pretty substantially year on year, and we now have the morph3d wing that's taking pretty big strides in the game utility market. If you're looking for younger people joining up specifically, i'm not too sure. It would be nice if the people using daz for concept work, book covers, comic books, album covers, game characters, fashion magazines and movies actually talked about using daz in their pipeline more. I get involved in a varied amount of art scenes and i see daz all the time, there's always a giveaway, but they never seem to say what they used. Anyway, I don't think daz will ever be as mainstream as something like blender or unity, but we're growing, little by little
Truth be told, my game development degree chairman is a HUGE fan of Daz and Poser to the point where he had us using them in class. That's how I got into this gig. :)
It requires marketing and outreach...things I have mentioned before. And by marketing I mean beyond pop up cookie adverts.
I think it's a bad ideal to niche market based on demographics as it winds up excluding people that are genuinely interested and nags people that aren't interested.
Just My opinions ..Not claiming to know all of the "facts"
You have to look at this entire area of endeavor in terms of
"Producers" & "consumers" and that middle ground between those who both produce and consume Digital content .
The unparralleled success of the smartphone has shown us that
the market for consumption seems virtually unlimited.
This in turn has created an ever increasing Demand for More/different online content.
What is Daz inc's position in this paradigm ??
In my opinion.... not a very good one.
They are a producer of 3D content ..yes.
However in my opinion they have thus far failed to firmly establish themselves outside of the Hobbyists, digital figure collector/hoarder market that embraced Daz studio in the early days when they began to much need separation from poser.
It has nothing to with the quality of the genesis figures/content IMHO.
There exists a common sort of Urban Mythology that the Porn industry has always decided what the next consumer delivery format will be.
Actually this has only happened once in history ( VHS vs BetaMax)
after that The decisions like physical media, frame rates, resolution etc have been largely determined By the multi-billion dollar home video Game industry.
Take some time to see what is actually happening with Unity& Unreal.Render machines will soon Dissappear from 3D production in favor a real time editing.
Have a look at Daz's "sister" site "Morph3D"
https://www.morph3d.com/morph-artist-tools.
Great!!... some "morph artist " Daz content being used in Unity3D.
However an Autodesk Max,Maya Game Character developer is likely person who also models and rigs his own figures for animation in Game engines.
And IMHO the "dressing room" feature is not something that will interest Gamers particularly for mutiplayer environments
And the beginner newbie using a free development engine like unity or unreal probably wont be impressed enough with Genesis to invest money in Daz game content licensing while he is just Tinkering &learning.
So where will "new Blood" to the Daz studio user base come from??
I have NO Idea.
Many artists don’t like to admit they use 3D assets and like clients to believe they’ve done everything from scratch so they won’t be active here or admit to using others’ assets for their projects. On the other hand, if I was eleven years old, I’d be obsessed with this, creating my own dolls and scenes just for fun!
This is something everyone can enjoy, be it fanfiction making, stories/roleplaying, or *ahem* stuff.
But yeah, "i create my own models" is more and more huge nowodays, so many behance profiles with zbrush works and what not.
Yes, we do have the "I made this" problem unfortunately, no-one wants to have their glory stolen. Art is almost always transformative though, every digital artist i know works from a plate, even if it's just a google image. Same goes for 3d, people have no issue nabbing things of turbosquid to fill out a scene, but some people still see daz as cheating. It's very silly. Daz is a lot like CGI in movies, you only ever see bad CG. You also only ever "see" bad daz renders, you never notice when it's quality.
Ouch. I resemble that remark.
Wow!! speaking of urban Mythology.
I have been hearing this tired ,old self validating, trope since the days of poser 4 and have yet to see any actual evidence that this is a common ,widespread "phenomenon"
From Where does this notion come ??
Trust Me, as a person who uses Daz assets in commercial animation renders.
To try and" fool"clients or any other associates by
"Hiding out" away from the online 3Dcommunities and claiming you created all the models & props from scratch is a Fools gambit and recipe for a humiliating disaster.
The internet has made the world a much smaller place so to speak.
I Make it very clear to clients what assets I can provide "from scratch" ( and Charge accordingly) and what assets will be from third party sources , and add any cost of acquisition to my fees.
All in a legally binding written contract.
You see, in commercial work, eventually a client will ask for something not already in the Daz store or your content library
what then, do you tell them??
As far as people posting renders in online galleries and claiming to have made all the models, Many have tried this at CG society in the past and all have been exposed as Liars.
Sure one may fool some of the people for a while but at some point some clever person with alot of free time on their hands
or a situation will arise that will expose your fraud
Remember "Milli Vanilli"
If I were again eleven years old, my pocket money wouldn't allow me to buy much DAZ stuff to tinker around with.
wolf359, i don't think anyone usually tries to steal some fame or...
More like "3d modelling elite race" folks looks down at us and angry... So now many people put a disclaimer about how daz is more like photography to prevent angry people to step in and say "you don't do anything, just use assets, meh"
Yeah, but we have all these morphs, shaders, lights, and postwork... I admit, it irks me a little when people render other people’s work “out of the box” for anything other than a render test for themselves or the community. Render tests are great ways to see exactly what you just purchased and to show others here so they can make more of an informed purchase if the promos are limited or one wants to see someone who isn’t a PA render them, but then people should put their own spin on it, use their own creativity to add to it, make it their own, create ART! The whole point, at least for me, is to create something different out of the assets we have, not just render them straight...
This is exactly what my 11yo does. He also models in Blender and recently started playing with Hexagon.
I don’t think providing content for ‘Poser art’ is in any danger of vanishing as a commercial field, and even if it did... consider the field of ‘text adventures’ which were ‘big’ in the 80s, and were eventually supplanted by graphical video games — but never really died, instead becoming a thriving niche hobby. And eventually technology and expertise combined and now there are multiple commercial game companies focusing on text-based interactive stories with limited or no art, and ‘fresh blood’ is flooding the streets and competitions and marketplaces.
I know an artist of ‘Photoshop art’ who picked up Daz as a way of adding flexibility to her stock photo use. I don’t think she advertises the use of 3d models in her work. It’s just another tool and if she can’t get what she needs in Studio there’s still stock.
I teach high school. We have a computer graphics/networking cert./light CAD/starting to just get into 3D printing program(s). From speaking with the kids in those programs over the past couple of years, not one has heard of Daz. A few have heard the name, "Poser," but that's about it. The same is true with the regular art class, the drawing and painting groups. None have heard of Daz. I really think that Daz should consider making a push of some form to get into schools and art programs. Since the software is free, and there are so many freebies out there, the cost to the schools would be minimal, but the potential payoff for Daz down the road could be quite large. At any rate, what my anecdotal experiences have shown is that Daz is far from a household word, even amongst the teens in my area who are into computer graphics and art.
Just my two cents, take it as you will.
Posing/lighting in DAZ would be good enough for quick sketches, right? I understand some would not do academic drawing due to how anatomy and muscle behavior "not perfect" and how 3D on 2D monitor (or even VR) ain't 3D painters ask for (art class teachers always ask not to draw from photos etc), but for sketching... should be useful!
You are right, some of the were at Deviantart, and some were on forums like CGTalk or Polycount.
I would also add, though.. When you put up render online, it doesnt mean you do "fine art" or something! Sometimes it's just depicturing/documentung of cool characters/stories you mess with and nothing more... (yet someone go angry and accuse you of pretending to be an artist)
Just my two cents on wishing for more young people in the community: With young people comes drama. I've been in several other online communities that have a wide range of ages, as well as constant new recruitment. Some of them I go back over a decade with. What I have seen like a red thread in all of them, is that the new "recruits" have been getting louder and more noticable by the year. They've been "raised" by other kids on the social media platforms, and play by a very strict and complex set of rules most other people don't understand or are even familiar with. Ten years ago, we could have civilised debates on those forums, and exchange opinions. Now the off-topic discussion sections are being shut down by moderators, because things never stay contained on the net, and some really ugly stuff have happened between very young members. Anything you create and share is analysed critically, to look for signs that you may be a terrible person. In some cases, older people have left, or become less active, because they feel intimidated by the younger, more aggro members.
The main reason I decided to get sociable on the Daz Forums, in addition to learning stuff, was that there seems to be a whole other environment around here. No name-calling, no gratiutious prophanity and/or suggestions for painful stuff you should do to yourself, no Friendly Reminders(TM) that your crimes are forever and no apology will be accepted. There's a peaceful, constructive atmosphere at this forum, that only seems to exist in "specially interested" communities (composed mostly of people over 40) these days. We can learn from each other, without fear of being dog-piled on and shunned.
Art class. Right. People, *that's* where the divide actually lands.
As things stand, nobody is going to put together and offer a class that someone would either take for academic credits, or have to pay to take, which teaches you how to work in DAZ Studio or Poser. Why? Because you aren't likely to be *hired* on the grounds of your skill in Studio or Poser. Now, you can sell art that you made in those low end programs, and a lot of people do, but there are no academic, or psuedo-academic credentials that you can point at for where you learned your skills in those programs. If you are working on the low end, it is assumed that you either trained yourself, or learned from online videos, or some such.
And I would hazard to guess that the people who actually do make a percentage of their living from low end programs aren't advertising themselves as 3D artists. They are probably marketing themselves as illustrators, or graphics designers, or commercial artists. In those fields, any tool that works, you use, and nobody sneers at you for doing it. They may not appreciate your style, or your interpretations, but they aren't going to laugh at your tools.
An art class, on the other hand, *will* teach you how to use Maya, or ZBrush, or a few of the other high end programs in an actual class, for which they *will* give you academic credit, or for which they will charge you money. Because there are people who will hire you on the grounds of skill in those programs. And peope who get hired by those employers do regard themselves as 3D artists, or at any rate, as artists working in the field of 3D.
It's the relative legitimacy of one's *training* which establishes one's standing as a "professional" in the field. Frankly, as a professional in any field that regards itself as a "profession". And as things currently stand, there is no acredited form of training for working in the low end of 3D art.
Speaking for myself. I would happly sign up for a semester or two of training in using Studio or even Poser. Nine years down the road, and I am sure that I've hardly familiarised myself with a third of the program's capabilities. But nobody is offering one, and if someone put a class sylabus together and tried to get their local Jr College to offer it, they'd probably be laughed out of the meeting.
In fact, when I did take an illustration class, I was told that work done in Studio would not be accepted for my final project *because* I hadn't modeled my figures myself. No one told me that I had to formulize my own paints, or produce my own chalks, but commercially available 3D models -- however modified, were not considered "legitimate".
That reminds me two communities as examples. Shoot 'em up enthusiasts (and enthusiasts of arcade games overall, including PCB board collectors; pinball community might be similar, i don't know) and modular synthesizer enthusiasts (from musicians to collectors to DIY engineers). Though in case with Shmups (and pinball?), that's a community which is based around culture that had it's peak in 80s/90s, and now it's pretty much post-mortem, with relatively few "newcomers". Modulars, on another hand, have a renaissance of popularity.
I wonder if it would be accepted in case.. if it was a class on composition.. hmm..? I mean, where doesn't matter "how you did base" and more matters "what you did with base later".
Initial idea behind this talk was that, with younger generations, we would have more different content*. I was talking more about vendors rather than customers, yes, but that should be balanced.
*for ages i look at store, and i mostly see content that reflects that it's "made by" and/or "made for" folks who grew up in 70s-80s rather than 90s-00s. Character designs, clothing designs, etc, that gives such impression. I might be over-generalizing and totally wrong, but it gives a food for thoughts.
p.s.
Oh, and one more thing. I'm really happy that THIS IS FORUM (where is advanced search, though? oh). Really, modern social media... from Facebook to Twitter to Instagram to Discord to Telegram... While they are good for several things and currently everything evolves around them.. PROBLEMS they have too pretty much... Like, simplification of functionality (modern internet tries to look trendy and for some reason sites loose functions).. Or how all those things are good for catching current moment, but awful for keeping valuable data for years (unlike forums/wikis). Like discord servers, which are more like endless chats rather than threads, good luck finding advice left by members if you were not present at moment, etc.
That is ridiculous because you ARE creating ART, you are just not creating tech. You are not rigging, and all the other tech involved but you are creating art. I used to work in the film business and I explain to people that it is like producing/directing/writing a movie and your crew left and you are doing everything. You are casting the actors and giving them plastic surgery to fit the role (LOL), you are a stylist and wardrobe person picking clothes and costumer as you change materials and shaders and kit-bash, you are a hairdresser, makeup artist, prop master, set designer, location manager, you are an actor yourself in a way as you pose the character and get the right expression, you are also the DP (cameraman), gaffer (lighting) just to set the scene and then postwork to make it more artistic and personal. A LOT goes into creating this and it’s ridiculous for people to not call it art if you are doing all of the above. Even graphic designers who use all pre-made assets and stock photos are artists...
But I'm sure you're aware that "art" is not what you do, it's what you produce, right? If it doesn't impact others and tell a story and affect them in some way then is it art? If doing a bunch of stuff to produce something is all you need to do art, then everything is art, and nothing is art.
Just my opinion.....
And as far as more people getting interested in something like 3D rendering, from what I've seen is it's far too complicated and time consuming. And I think there's less and less tolerance for anything that doesn't give significant instant gratification.
As with anything else, we can wish and wish that people felt and acted differently and had different interests, but wishing doesn't make it true. There's a reason why games are so incredibly popular, as well as smartphones, and all the other tech stuff that's so popular. Tech is fun and easy and instant gratification. DAZ has done an incredible job at making Studio so user friendly and easy to use, but IMO, as things progress, I think that it will be tougher and tougher to convince the new generation to invest the time and energy, just to produce a single image. Heck, they can find any images and videos and music they want with just a click on their smartphones.
Again, this is just my observation and opinion, not intended to offend or upset anyone.
I see a lot of crap in art galleries that a child could do, but it’s on a wall in a gallery, so it’s art. Actually, a child taking the time to produce something with paint, pencils, 3D, whatever IS creating art and their mom will probably be proud. Some art is liked by more than others and considered “good art” and some art could be called “bad” because it doesn’t follow certain rules but it really depends on the taste of the viewer. When you create a lot, it’s interesting to see which pieces other people like. Sometimes I’m not that happy with something I create but others like it and buy it and I never know what is going to affect others. I believe that if the artist intended it to be art, then it is art, whether anyone else likes it or not. And most likely, SOMEONE will like it besides the artist themself...
Some good points. I spend a lot of time in game/modeling/ripping forums and other places with a much younger group of users and in general there is a HUGE difference in attitude, ways they act and mentality in dealing with others and the assets used. While I would love to see an increase in the amount of DS users and creators, the main reason I can see users from these other 3D places I mention come here or use the app is to get assets to share online with others or use in their attempts at creatng games or mods for them for free. Probably why I am againt using DS content for games, it's usually obtained or used in ways outside of the EULA.in my experience.
I feel DAZ needs to keep focused on improving DS and even close off native use to other apps to bring in more DS users and increase the formats to import with. If the only way to get the most out of DS content is to use DS, then it;s a win. Otherwise it's just a store for 3d models with a free app to export to .FBX with to use with every other app out there..
I guess I tend to feel that we should hold "art" in a somewhat higher regard, and make it something you strive for and try to get really really good at, rather than calling everything art just because we want it to be and it makes us feel better about ourselves.
Again, just my opinion.
I don't think the age of the participants has anything to do with the quality of discourse on the Daz forums. They are heavily moderated and by thoughtful, attentive moderators.
There could be different challenges to bring other "groups of people" into the DAZ 3D community.
Floating license system targeting companies
A system of floating licenses instead of personal licenses would tremendously help to be able to use DAZ3D content in a company environment.
With the current system if an employee leaves a company all licensed 3d assets purchased in his name are lost investment as well.
compare:
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/247926/daz3d-content-in-a-company-floating-license-system
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Separate stores for communities with different software and render engines
Morph 3D is a great example for a spin off. DAZ3D could extend by targeting different communities under a different brand name but still using the same offices for administrative tasks.
Adjusting materials for other render engines still takes time especially when some assets have 100+ surface zones.
In render communities like Octane there are people asking on the forum where they can buy 3d assets with Octane materials set up.
Static high resolution environments, props, plants, vehicles may see more demand than human figures that depend on morphs.
With file transfer containers like .ORBX that include all the render engine specific material data those assets could be used in other professional software that have an OctaneRender plugin.
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Commercially oriented stores that exclude licenses to be used for adult content
It may be challenging to use licensed content for commercial purposes when there is a risk that the "models" end up being featured in adult oriented content as well.
Real life fashion brands and other companies have used humanlike 3d models for their commercials.
To use static 3d props or environments for commercial shots is more frequent.
Companies that want to use licensed 3d assets for such purposes may be interested in assets stores that provide licenses that exclude use in any adult themed content or allow use only in specific sets of a chosen rating system.
compare:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_picture_content_rating_system
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DAZ3D could expand the user groups by targeting different interest groups with specialised stores.
Improving and focusing to provide the best solutions for the current "niche market" may be the solution for the time being.
Decisions like these are impossible to judge from the outside without access to business related information.
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This ^
As a parent of two early 20's age children I have observed that their generation simply does not have interest in sitting in front a desktop or laptop for hours assembling "3D Scenes" to render something.
My daughter ( age 21) Actually has a recent model Macbook air .
She only carries it around to connect to her IPhone hotspot and show people her online Fashion modeling portolio because obviously
the photos look better on the larger,Macbook screen.
My son (age 22) is a rookie Police Officer down is south Jersey.
His roomate works for some crazy technology company that recently
unloaded alot of recent model Mac hardware at"fire sale" prices
My son bought one of the large one piece imacs
"just for the heck of it"
He only uses it for the occasional police related paper work
using the default Mac system software
and he is a very talented Shaded pencil artist.
On his four days off period, he works out at the gym ,plays his
Playstation on his massive 50 inch TV, or watches anime on netflix.
Go to any place that offers free public wifi and you will be hard pressed to find anyone under the age of 45 using a laptop there
its all Smartphones.
Smartphone-optimized sites, with awful navigation (and if you open them on monitor, you see huge empty spaces!) and dumbed down functions.. look at those "vanillaforums" which are more like blog reskin rather than actual forum.. and most folks nowodays prefer chats (discord, watsapp), have fun scrolling down chat for half of day to find what was posted an year ago IF you know it was posted.. thats why i love forums - each thing has its own thread, each spere has its own subforum...
i'm in mid20s now, i guess i grew up in transition period
Laptops in public, though, well, it's not as portable as tablet or phone :)
The only way make the human figure models highly undesirable for "Adult" content use is the have the base meshes modeled with clothing permanently on,and no ability to load any other models who might be nude.
The short lived "Poser Artist" from Smith Micro had such figures and targeted the grade school market
seemed a good idea in theory Not sure why they stopped making it.