I'm having issues with rigging my ponytail.

XadeXade Posts: 236

The bones are not lining up with the groups. I tried adjusting bones to shape but it doesn't work. Do I have to split then update the geometry?  How can I get these bones into their proper groups and places?  How can I get them to actually bend the mesh? What am I doing wrong? 

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Post edited by Xade on
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  • The boens are created aligned along the twist axis, you then need to use the Joint Editor tool to fine tune them (there are align options to position the next bone at the end of the oen before, to help).

    Adjust Rigging to Shape is for morphs - you have to do, and memorise, the basic rigging then the command will look at the chnages in the mesh from a morph and move the bones to have the same relationship to the new mesh as they had to the base.

  • XadeXade Posts: 236
    edited July 2018

    ',Ok, I got a little further but I can't adjust the twist, bend, and side to side parameters. I am using Triax rigging. Is that different than what I am used to and normal or what? I do have the bones aligned with the mesh, but until I can get the bones to manipulate the mesh I can't see how well they are positioned. I'm so used to using the long flags and the twist circle. How do I access them?

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    Post edited by Chohole on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,591
    edited July 2018

    Ok, start to finish (and now fixed formatting!).

    Set up your vertex groups in your modeler before export.

    Import to the left hand geometry panel in Figure Setup tab.

    Drag and drop over to hierarchy.

    Drag and drop bones into correct parenting relationships.

    You can change joint order on the right side of the FST. By default it is XYZ. For a ponytail you want YZX on probably all the bones (FST allows multi select for fast edit).

    Make sure the head bone has name head, lowercase, and label Head, uppercase. Hit Create.

    Bone tool. Right click in 3d window. Edit--align--align all bones.

    Right-click in 3d Window again.  Edit--memorize--memorize figure rigging.

    Alt shift w to go to weight map editor, or click the brush icon up top.

    Right click and take the option to assign weights by bone selection groups. Triax is what you need if it's for Genesis 1 so don't change that.

    Save to library, delete, reload to ensure you keep your progress. Do not save without the memorize step or everything is ruined.

    Post edited by SickleYield on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,591
    edited July 2018

    Part 2. 

    Select Genesis in Scene Tab and ctrl click hair.  To be clear, this ensures they are both selected, but Genesis is selected FIRST.

    Hit the tiny button at top right and edit--rigging--transfer rigging figure space to make sure hair fits to figure.

    Conform hair to figure.

    Save to library again.

    Now you have a basic working rig. You can smooth the relationships of groups by selecting all bones and all geometry at once and using edit--smoothing options from the 3d window right click in weight group editor, or you can use weight map smooth brush group by group. Save again when done.

    In answer to your question:

    There are no circles and twist flag.  Those were for parametric joint rigging, used in Generation 4, and neither TriAx (Genesis and Genesis 2) nor Dual Quaternion/General Weight (Genesis 3 and 8) use them. 

    If you rig from the Figure Setup tab, it will label the xrotate, yrotate, etc. for you as bend, twist, and so on.  Otherwise you would have to do it manually from the Parameters tab by clicking the little gear icon and editing the Parameters.

    Post edited by SickleYield on
  • XadeXade Posts: 236

    Thanks, SickleYield, that explains a lot. I had to reconfigure the groups, they were different sizes so I had to add a lot of lines for bending room and redo them. "i'm back on track now.

    The last time I seriously rigged something was 10 years ago. The staff that I used to refresh myself had the parametric joint rigging grandfathered in because that was originally made for generation 4 too. I might update its rigging and see if it bends any better, but it has two layers to the flame, the inner, which is pwtoon shaded, and the outer, which is pwghost shaded. That might make weight painting difficult.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,591

    Well, I've rigged a layered flame before (I believe fuseling has as well).  You may have to fiddle with the maps a little, but usually it can be done.

    And I understand, too!  I was checking my sales records (as I do almost daily) and I found that my first sale of a Daz product was in 2012, and that was just when I was good enough to get on at Daz3d. :D  I started with Victoria 4 before there was a Michael 4.  There are people here who started with V1!  Back then there were almost no tutorials.  I think I learned my first rigging by bugging an artist in person.  It might have been LittleFox, for that matter, it's been so long I don't remember.

  • XadeXade Posts: 236
    edited August 2018

    Now I'm having issues with weight painting.I'm following this and mine looks absolutely nothing like the one in the tutorial. For one thing, I don't have blue and for another, I cannot seem to get it to bend gently, finally, when I bend the joint there is a noticeable lag. The mesh stays in place until I release the joint then it snaps into place. It's set to TriAx, yet the whole joint is red down to the tail. What am I doing wrong?

     

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    Post edited by Xade on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 86,102
    edited August 2018

    Is it using TriAx or General Weight Mapping? If you transferred the rigging from Genesis 3 or 8 then it will be the latter, in which case those maps (which are for TriAx) won't help. Check the Binding tab of Tool Settings

    Post edited by Richard Haseltine on
  • XadeXade Posts: 236

     

    Is it using TriAx or General Weight Mapping? If you transferred the rigging from Genesis 3 or 8 then it will be the latter, in which case those maps (which are for TriAx) won't help. Check the Binding tab of Tool Settings

    I said it was TriAx. The ponytail is my own ponytail that I made by hand in Blender. There is no previous rigging. I use Genesis, so I thought I would start with Genesis then work my way up to Genesis 3 and 8 once I master how to do it. Since there isn't any iconic or legacy shapes for Genesis 3 or 8 yet and I bought them for Genesis, I use Genesis for my webcomic characters. This is mainly for my webcomic but I am also releasing the hair to the Daz store to get a little bit of cash, once I get all the bugs worked out.

    But that's beside the point, I really need to figure out how to get the weight maps right in Daz, I can do it in Blender no problem but Daz has me completely at a loss. How do I get the gentle bend that I need for smooth joints? Thanks

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,591
    edited August 2018
    The node weight map brush settings are accessible to you from Tool tab (you can create one from Windows--Panes/Tabs). At the top right you have the option of the brush that paints weight or the smooth brush. The smoothing brush smooths bends where you apply it. You can also smooth areas automatically with the process I described earlier. Right now you have all red because everything is filled 100% to its group. When it is smoothed there will be purple at the edges and some blue in the areas of lowest influence. You can also turn down weight by holding alt as you paint with the regular brush, but I do not recommend this over auto smoothing because it tends to be sharp and messy.
    Post edited by SickleYield on
  • XadeXade Posts: 236
    edited August 2018

    Well, I figured out how to do just the joint red (had to add various weight maps) However, I am having little luck in smoothing, except for manual smoothing. The rest, also, isn't blue as what shows in the tutorial I'm following When I right click>weight editing>smooth selected it just doesn't smooth. I get the popup but nothing happens. Do I have to select polygons? How can I select what I cannot see? I can't remember how to show the faces.

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    Post edited by Xade on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,591

    Yes, as I said earlier, you have to select both polygons and also the bones whose maps you want smoothed.  You can change the draw style to solid wire in the upper right of your screen if you like, but I often find the easiest way is to right-click and choose mode-marquee with the joint editor up, because then you can click and drag a square around the area you want to select.

  • The lack of blue s because DS now uses sparse weight-maps - it doesn't assign a value at all to unused areas, they just appear grey. This saves memory - presumably it's a boolean or single byte integer value so uses less than the float value for actual weights. You won't see colour until you have added some weight to the vertex.

  • XadeXade Posts: 236

    After googling for a while, I finally found the draw settings in a tab. Why it's there is beyond me but eh, it's just something else I need to add to my workspace on the tabs that matter. Is there a way to do a ring select? Or is that too advanced for Daz? I do miss the parametric joint rigging of Generation 4. That made the weight painting easy.

    Thanks for all your help. It's so appreciated. 

  • The Geometry Editor has a Loop Select - it's in the right-click>Geometry Selection menu, I can't recall the shortcut but the menu will show it.

  • XadeXade Posts: 236
    edited August 2018

    The Geometry Editor has a Loop Select - it's in the right-click>Geometry Selection menu, I can't recall the shortcut but the menu will show it.

    Sweet, thanks! That will make selecting and weight painting easy.

    Edit: Why doesn't it soften the bending? I bent on the Z up and down and it just won't soften the bend at all. What am I doing wrong this time?

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    Post edited by Xade on
  • Which map is selected in the Tool Settings pane, what geometry  is selected, have you locked anything?

  • XadeXade Posts: 236
    edited August 2018

    Turns out I had the wrong weight map selected, I had general selected. But why is there a lag then snap into place?  That's a little wonky. I can't have that in a finished product.

    This is while it is bending

    And this is after I release it

     

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    Post edited by Xade on
  • In the Draw Settings pane try changing Manipulation Binding from Optimised (which I think is what it will be) to Full. I'm not sure why some things show the odd effect with Optimised. and others don't

  • XadeXade Posts: 236
    edited August 2018

    Now I'm having trouble with one joint not smoothing right. I had to select the loop manually because it wanted to go vertical as well as horizontal. The others that I did went perfectly smooth all the way around but not this one. I have no idea what is wrong, I duplicated everything that worked prior to this joint. For one thing the underside looks like this.

    And when bent it looks like this

    What's the problem this time?

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    Post edited by Xade on
  • Loop selection not working usually means there are non-quad faces, which confuses the algorithm.

  • XadeXade Posts: 236
    edited August 2018

    That's impossible. There are no triangles or ngons. I double checked with mesh lint in blender. The only thing it has is nonmanifold elements, which basically means edges without two faces attached. This was intentional for easy morphing and doesn't seem to bother daz much. it's just the one area that refuses to comply with the smoothing.

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    Post edited by Xade on
  • It might also be down to what you had selected when you used the Select Loop command.

  • XadeXade Posts: 236
    edited August 2018

    I selected exactly the same way that worked before. Two horizontal then hit loop shortcut, just like the rest of them, it's just that one area that seems have a problem. here is a selection before and after loop. I've done it repeatedly the same way on the rest of the model.

    I have no idea what is wrong. it's exactly the same as the previous areas. Any ideas Richard? (Or anyone else for that matter.)

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    Post edited by Xade on
  • No, that's really strange and I can't see any reason for it to happen.

  • XadeXade Posts: 236
    edited August 2018

    I also can't smooth it properly because of this little issue, I've shown you the smoothing weight issue, even if I select everything manually it does this

    it will not bend right or anything. I am completely at a loss.I've redid the weights, tried that first but nothing. I need to add a few loops for a new bone near the end, which means redoing the rigging from scratch, but I don't mind, as long as I create a quality product. While im in Blender I'll examine that area closely but I doubt if I will find anything, cause I did that before and found nothing.

    Post edited by Xade on
  • grinch2901grinch2901 Posts: 1,232
    edited August 2018
    You can change joint order on the right side of the FST. By default it is XYZ. For a ponytail you want YZX on probably all the bones (FST allows multi select for fast edit).

    I plan to try adding rigging to some of my models and so I've been doing some reading. One part I am unsure about is changing the joint order.  Your post implies that the order goes in direction you want it to (in order) 1) Twist - 2) Front/Back - 3) Side to side.  So an arm in the T-pose would be XZY if that's how to interpret it.

    Is that the way it works?

    Post edited by grinch2901 on
  • XadeXade Posts: 236
    edited August 2018
    You can change joint order on the right side of the FST. By default it is XYZ. For a ponytail you want YZX on probably all the bones (FST allows multi select for fast edit).

    I plan to try adding rigging to some of my models and so I've been doing some reading. One part I am unsure about is changing the joint order.  Your post implies that the order goes in direction you want it to (in order) 1) Twist - 2) Front/Back - 3) Side to side.  So an arm in the T-pose would be XZY if that's how to interpret it.

    Is that the way it works?

    The best way to figure this out is to study the Genesis models. There is a way to load it into the figure setup tools, explore the little lines menu in the upper corner of the figure setup tab. Also, you should make your own thread for your own problem instead of piggybacking on another, which might get missed by a moderator wanting to help you. Here is a snapshot of what you need. A great artist studies the works of others and learns how to apply it to their own projects. :)

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    Post edited by Chohole on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,591

    I've always just gone by the figures myself. :D  I never paid enough attention to be like this is twist, this is bend, this is side-side.

  • grinch2901grinch2901 Posts: 1,232

    Well, sounds like I'll need to check the manual and ... oh. Oops. Well, time to experiment!

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