Decal help

Hi,

I saw that new https://www.daz3d.com/wetfx-decal--shader-kit product, and it looked really nice, so it got me thinking about how decals really work? PA also has another https://www.daz3d.com/iray-clothing-decal-kit that I'm interested. Since I have zero experience how decals really work, I thought I'll ask before I buy them.

1) Do those decals stay in place, even if I pose my character again. Like do they have some universal cordinates, or do they follow character/cloth local cordinates. Like if I put an oil stain in front of the shirt, then pose character again, does that oil stain end up in back in the worst case scenario? I hope to make a game one day, so I need to make several renders of same characters with same clothes in different poses and locations.

2) I'm hoping to move to Eevee once it's ready, so I wonder if it's possible to export decals outside of DS

 

 

 

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Comments

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,142

    I too have a question so thought I'd post in your thread.  I have no idea what the difference is between decal and using the LIE tool. The LIE tool for me has always worked slow as mud so I avoid it at all costs so if a published artist releases a new product or character that uses mostly LIE presets I avoid it.  If decal is faster and just as reLIEable cheeky then I may consider this product as it looks quite useful! 

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,217
    Mendoman said:

    Hi,

    I saw that new https://www.daz3d.com/wetfx-decal--shader-kit product, and it looked really nice, so it got me thinking about how decals really work? PA also has another https://www.daz3d.com/iray-clothing-decal-kit that I'm interested. Since I have zero experience how decals really work, I thought I'll ask before I buy them.

    1) Do those decals stay in place, even if I pose my character again. Like do they have some universal cordinates, or do they follow character/cloth local cordinates. Like if I put an oil stain in front of the shirt, then pose character again, does that oil stain end up in back in the worst case scenario? I hope to make a game one day, so I need to make several renders of same characters with same clothes in different poses and locations.

    2) I'm hoping to move to Eevee once it's ready, so I wonder if it's possible to export decals outside of DS

     

     

     

    Hi there, i'm the vendor you're referring to. Decals act like a projector or spotlight, they project onto a surface rather than being baked into the figure textures. You can parent decals to certain bones or to the figure itself, and it will move along with it. Decals aren't the best option for a character that is animating, especially if its over a large area since it's working like a projector, not a rigged cloth. For stills it works fine, and is far less labor intensive than painting textures onto figures. Decals are a great option for static surfaces, and are often used in game development due to the massive runtime resource savings. There are pro's an cons to each method, but i do like to use decals quite often for super fast texture variation. If you do re-pose a character after placing your texture, you simply have to jump back into iray interactive mode and re-place the decal. If you have already purchased my wetfx kit, i can link you to a manual i did for the clothing decals which apply to decals almost universally in daz. Also, here's a video of me using decals.

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,217
    RAMWolff said:

    I too have a question so thought I'd post in your thread.  I have no idea what the difference is between decal and using the LIE tool. The LIE tool for me has always worked slow as mud so I avoid it at all costs so if a published artist releases a new product or character that uses mostly LIE presets I avoid it.  If decal is faster and just as reLIEable cheeky then I may consider this product as it looks quite useful! 

    Hi Ramwolff, i think i kind of answered this above. I'm not sure what LIE does exactly, but i know there is a distinction between LIE and geoshells, but they both seem to be a tad heavy (though superior for animating). Decals simply project a shaded cutout texture onto a surface, they are used extensively in video games as you can have a lot of tiling textures broken up with decals instead of having unique textures everywhere and blowing VRAM. They are fast, efficient and you can place them anywhere on anything. Again, here's a video of me using them.  You can use LIE, shells, or even paint unique textures, with the upside being they are much more animation friendly and more of a permanent solution. On the other hand, decals may need to be repositioned if you've moved the surface they are projecting onto. Again, pro's and cons, hope that helps. smiley

  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310
    Decals can also cross seam lines with no issues. So that's another advantage they have on geoshells or LIE
  • lwaveslwaves Posts: 237
    edited April 2018

    I'm currently working on some logos to apply to t-shirts etc and have recently looked at all three methods mentioned. Here's what I've discovered although I'm probably missing quite a bit.

    Layered Image Editor (LIE)
    Adds one or more layers onto your base texture.
    Pros:
    - It uses the existing UV of the item so any new layer will bend and conform with the base item (i.e. through posing)

    Cons:
    - It's very slow and outdated. It really needs optimising and bringing up to date.
    - Any tiling (possibly other factors too) on the base texture will affect any new texture layer that you add yourself (i.e. if a base shader is tiled then a logo on a new layer will also tile). .

    Geometry Shells
    Essentially it creates a copy of your base item on top of itself (but slightly bigger).
    Pros:
    - It uses the existing UV of the item so any new layer will bend and conform with the base item (i.e. through posing).
    - It isn't affected by tiling etc of the base texture (i.e. adding a logo works great). To me, this is the big difference between shells and LIE.
    - It can be adjusted to give a closer or looser fit.

    Cons:
    - Multiple geom shells may not work well together, although there are ways around it.
    - If using multiple shells it can become slow but nowhere near as much as LIE does.

    Iray Decals
    KindredArts already summed these up well. They project an image onto a surface, any surface.
    Pros:
    - Completely UV independant, so any texture can be projected onto any surface.
    - The flatter the surface the better they work. Ideal for walls, panels etc.

    Cons:
    - They don't bend or conform when posing.
    - Iray only, which some might consider a con.
    - They only show up with the viewport set to Iray or in a render.

    Post edited by lwaves on
  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,142

    That's very cool.  Is this tech I can make use of in my works or is this proprietary that you came up with? If it's common tech can you show me where I can learn more about it?  In the mean time I'm going to add in your current offering to my cart as it looks quite useful!

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,217

    Thanks @Iwaves that's a much better summary than i cooked up. @RAMWolff there's nothing proprietary on my end, it's part of studio. Just select an object in the scene and hit Create/New Iray Decal Node... My decals sets simply offer a range of premade decals and shaders for the system.

    Here's a tutorial i made for the first decal kit.

    Here's a free tutorial i made on how to make your own.

    Here's the official documentation from daz, but it's not very extensive at the moment.

     

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,142

    Thank you so very much!  :-)

  • Griffin AvidGriffin Avid Posts: 3,755

    Maybe something is wrong with this one, as is.

    When I load the prop I get the bounding box with nothing in it. Part of the screen is greyed out like if something is there blocking the viewport.

    Applying material or shaders does nothing.

    I'm in iray preview mode. Still nothing.

    The last product like this loaded that checkerboard. So that is what I am used to moving around and placing.

    Any ideas?

  • Griffin AvidGriffin Avid Posts: 3,755

    Okay, then. I closed the scene and reopened and it's working fine.

    Oh my does this make a grusome blood after I darkened the color a bit.

    Sheesh. I didn't think anyone could top the main decal kit, but this is kinda nuts.

    One more product that I have no idea how or why it works, but I will be working it.

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,217

    Okay, then. I closed the scene and reopened and it's working fine.

    Oh my does this make a grusome blood after I darkened the color a bit.

    Sheesh. I didn't think anyone could top the main decal kit, but this is kinda nuts.

    One more product that I have no idea how or why it works, but I will be working it.

    Hi Griffin, glad you got it sorted because i have no idea what was happening before hand. Glad you like it, i think one of the presets i've included could double up for blood (Dark red maybe?) smiley

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,142

    One thing that's an issue so far, as I've had success in my tests but if you change out the texture and cutout the image, on my end  will not update automatically so I have to delete the current decal and then load up an entirely new one and set it up again.  Might just be on my end but I've tried multiple times to get the update images to work but NOPE.... have to start from scratch every time. 

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,217
    RAMWolff said:

    One thing that's an issue so far, as I've had success in my tests but if you change out the texture and cutout the image, on my end  will not update automatically so I have to delete the current decal and then load up an entirely new one and set it up again.  Might just be on my end but I've tried multiple times to get the update images to work but NOPE.... have to start from scratch every time. 

    That's universal across all textures in daz, if you resave them in photoshop the cache needs to be updated in daz. Daz cache's each texture rather than updating from the source in realtime. If you update a texture, go back to the normal textured viewport, hit CTRL-I and your textures should refresh. Now go back to iray interactive view and your decals should have changed.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,142

    Ctrl i (I) or l (L)

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,142

    Ah, I see... go out of the iRAY view and then ctrl i yes, that does work.  Thank you!

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 40,514

    ...@ Kindred Arts, this looks like a wonderful product.  Definitely something I can use.

  • MendomanMendoman Posts: 400

    Thank you all, I think I'll get both of those decal kits. Those decals look really nice in the pictures, and that was a really nice surprise, that they even cross seam lines. Those have always been problematic for me.

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,217
    kyoto kid said:

    ...@ Kindred Arts, this looks like a wonderful product.  Definitely something I can use.

    Thanks Kyoto! Hope you enjoy it. smiley Same goes for you Mendoman, i'm watching this thread so if you have any issues or queries, let me know.

    RAMWolff, glad you got it, remember it's universal so you do the same thing if you've updated clothing/skin etc.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,142

    Another couple of questions... Say I want to export a decal, what does one export it as?  I don't see a proprietory export option for this.  Also, what ever format you tell me if I have it positioned for say GM8 will it load in the x-translation value I have set or will be loaded at the all zeroed out position?

    Thanks so much!

    Richard

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,217
    RAMWolff said:

    Another couple of questions... Say I want to export a decal, what does one export it as?  I don't see a proprietory export option for this.  Also, what ever format you tell me if I have it positioned for say GM8 will it load in the x-translation value I have set or will be loaded at the all zeroed out position?

    Thanks so much!

    Richard

    Do you mean export, or do you mean save? If you want to save it, you parent the decal to whatever figure you want, select the figure and then save the decal as a wearable. Then when you want to bring the decal back to your figure or a new figure, simply slect your desired figure in the scene and load your decal as you would a piece of clothing.

    Exporting decals would be a case of using the source textures in a different engine, so you'll have to find runtime/textures/Kindred Arts/ then select the source set you want to harvest from and port the textures to your destination program. I don't know all the licensing requirements of this btw, i'm just telling you how to do it.

  • ChadCryptoChadCrypto Posts: 596

    Hi @kindredarts I didn't notice this thread. I created one on the WetFX Decal & Shader Kit  I'm having a hard time figuring out how to use it. It won't show up in the iray preview or rendered.

     

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,217

    Hi @kindredarts I didn't notice this thread. I created one on the WetFX Decal & Shader Kit  I'm having a hard time figuring out how to use it. It won't show up in the iray preview or rendered.

     

    There's no docs for wetfx, but here's a link to the documentation i made for Iray Wound Kit which works in an identical way. You have to make sure the decal is parented to the figure you're working with, so have the scene tab open and confirm this before anything else. Also, here's a video of me using decals. Let me know if that helps. If not, tell me what steps you're taking and i'll see if i can pinpoint what's going on.

  • ChadCryptoChadCrypto Posts: 596
    edited April 2018

    @KindredArts Thank you, it works now.  I can see the splatter.

    Post edited by ChadCrypto on
  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,217

    @KindredArts Thank you, it works now.  I can see the splatter.

    No problem smiley

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,142
    RAMWolff said:

    Another couple of questions... Say I want to export a decal, what does one export it as?  I don't see a proprietory export option for this.  Also, what ever format you tell me if I have it positioned for say GM8 will it load in the x-translation value I have set or will be loaded at the all zeroed out position?

    Thanks so much!

    Richard

    Do you mean export, or do you mean save? If you want to save it, you parent the decal to whatever figure you want, select the figure and then save the decal as a wearable. Then when you want to bring the decal back to your figure or a new figure, simply slect your desired figure in the scene and load your decal as you would a piece of clothing.

    Exporting decals would be a case of using the source textures in a different engine, so you'll have to find runtime/textures/Kindred Arts/ then select the source set you want to harvest from and port the textures to your destination program. I don't know all the licensing requirements of this btw, i'm just telling you how to do it.

    OK, save as a wearable.  Thank you! 

  • lwaveslwaves Posts: 237
    RAMWolff said:

    OK, save as a wearable.  Thank you! 

    It took me forever to work out how to save a decal when I first tried. I kicked myself when I realised. ;-)

    As an addition if you need it, once you've saved your decal as a wearable, you can then save matterial presets for that wearable, just like with clothing.
    It may come in useful if you like the location of the decal but want to change the texture for different occasions.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,142

    Thank you for the additional tip!  :-)

  • ChadCryptoChadCrypto Posts: 596

    I really like this, She spilled her milk.

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,217

    I really like this, She spilled her milk.

    lol, i was hoping for better milk spillage than i could come up with. We have to be super clean on promo work so the only spillage i could think of was gym rats spilling milk ... no idea how that cam across. Great render smiley

  • ChadCryptoChadCrypto Posts: 596

    Thanks, these decals are such a cool tech. It actually following the curves of the mesh is quite cool.  

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