Chain mail... sigh

Malandar

Why do people who make products where they use chain mail always hang the mail the WRONG WAY?  Every time a product comes out that uses chain mail in it I open up the promos of it and am disappointed. The proper way for mail to hang is verticle, not horizontal if it hangs horizontally the pattern is open making it easier to  find a place to shove something sharp through it, I have brought this up a few times before, but no one seems to realize or care that they are doing it wrong.

Diomede

Interesting and informative.  Could you post a reference image or two of actual armor (not PA products) showing the right way, and explaining what would be wrong?  

tj_1ca9500b

Sometimes you can just use a chainmail shader...

https://www.daz3d.com/uber-iray-medieval-armor-shaders

RawArt

I have had discussions with a PA on this as well, and he insists that his way is the correct way and it is not really horizontal. So he is doing it like that intentionally.

grinch2901

Malandar said:

Why do people who make products where they use chain mail always hang the mail the WRONG WAY?  Every time a product comes out that uses chain mail in it I open up the promos of it and am disappointed. The proper way for mail to hang is verticle, not horizontal if it hangs horizontally the pattern is open making it easier to  find a place to shove something sharp through it, I have brought this up a few times before, but no one seems to realize or care that they are doing it wrong.

I'm not sure I understand the issue. The links are intertwined vertically and horizontally so how does orientation affect it?  Genuinely curious, I have a passing interest in medieval weapons and armor and can't visualize what your concern is and would like to get smarter about it. 

brimstoneomega

I'm not sure if the oreintation would negativly effect the protection chain would offer, because even in historical uses there were differenting orientations. This is most easily seen in coifs, typically they were woven in a somewhat circular patteren laid out and then buttoned up. The head cap and the shoulder draping part would naturally have differening orientations. What is far more critical to the effectiveness of chain is if it has been rivited or butted together. Butted mail isn't real, and can be torn apart by hand, where as with out a very slender point rivited mail is relavily inpeneratrable by things other then very heavy weapons. On a side note, one thing that is very detrimental to the protection of armor is breast cups, which are about as good a a funnel for a sword or axe to punch right into a woman's chest. Plate should apex at the center of the chest and fall back from that point to deflect blows, not encouage them.

But yeah, the OP is right that for the most part, chain should hang vertically because that would be the way it would have been woven in items like a shirt or skirt, but that would be more a function of its creation I think then the protection it may offer.

 

Toonces

grinch2901 said:

Malandar said:

Why do people who make products where they use chain mail always hang the mail the WRONG WAY?  Every time a product comes out that uses chain mail in it I open up the promos of it and am disappointed. The proper way for mail to hang is verticle, not horizontal if it hangs horizontally the pattern is open making it easier to  find a place to shove something sharp through it, I have brought this up a few times before, but no one seems to realize or care that they are doing it wrong.

I'm not sure I understand the issue. The links are intertwined vertically and horizontally so how does orientation affect it?  Genuinely curious, I have a passing interest in medieval weapons and armor and can't visualize what your concern is and would like to get smarter about it. 

Agreed. In all the pics I've seen, orientation is a non-issue, since it's just a circle linking 4 other circles repeatedly. I'm sure there must be something I'm overlooking as I'm not a chainmail expert.

Malandar

I think that the ones who used the stuff knew the way it is supposed to hang.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/7881368071975040

(the above link is a link to pictures of examples of ancient chain armor.)

 

The reason that having it horizontal is not a good thing is becauseit opens the weave and allows things like sword points and arrow heads to  pass through easier, And no I am not saying that chain mail was arrow proof, it was not, but an arrow on the end of its range, that has and has lost a lot of its kinetic force will bounce off chain mail with a closed weave easier than that of an open weave pattern, and the way they depict it in products sold on here is unrealistic, as gravity would puill those links apart, opening holes in the weave and making weapons catch on the horizontal rings instead of sliding between the rings and down away from the wearer harmlessly.

Malandar

duplicate post...

Malandar

brimstoneomega said:

I'm not sure if the oreintation would negativly effect the protection chain would offer, because even in historical uses there were differenting orientations. This is most easily seen in coifs, typically they were woven in a somewhat circular patteren laid out and then buttoned up. The head cap and the shoulder draping part would naturally have differening orientations. What is far more critical to the effectiveness of chain is if it has been rivited or butted together. Butted mail isn't real, and can be torn apart by hand, where as with out a very slender point rivited mail is relavily inpeneratrable by things other then very heavy weapons. On a side note, one thing that is very detrimental to the protection of armor is breast cups, which are about as good a a funnel for a sword or axe to punch right into a woman's chest. Plate should apex at the center of the chest and fall back from that point to deflect blows, not encouage them.

But yeah, the OP is right that for the most part, chain should hang vertically because that would be the way it would have been woven in items like a shirt or skirt, but that would be more a function of its creation I think then the protection it may offer.

 

Te orientation definitely WOULD affect the protection given, by the armor. Mail coifs were not intended to be worn alone, they had padding under and a helmet over it, so the "weak part" the pattern that radiated out from the very top would have been covered, though if done properly thee links would fall correctly anyway, I have made one like this myself, but I am not sure where it is at the moment, or I would take pictures of it and post them.  The arms of the mail hanging the wrong way is  a lazy way of making armor, I admit that i did it on the first mail shirt I made, but that was because I had not learned how to  make the pattern to correctly align the links so that you can get sleeves that fall the right way, and I still havent, because of lack of time, but I have seen shirts where both sleeves and body fall the right way (vertical) And yes rivited mail was the best, but I have yet to see a man strong entough to rip my butted mail shirt apart with his bare hands.

And yeah  female armor is silly when it  shows, HEY FEMALE HERE!

The only reason to have your mail fall the wrong way is because you want a costume that resembles armor, and you don't have the patience to make something that resembles actual armor.

Lotharen

From what I have been able to find on the net, the most common weave for chain mail was the European 4 in 1. By the look of it, it wouldn't matter which way it would hang since all the rings are evenly distributed. However, rings size would play a big part since larger rings would create a bigger 'hole'. So I think it really comes down to ring size and weave type, not orientation of the mail.

Malandar

Lotharen said:

From what I have been able to find on the net, the most common weave for chain mail was the European 4 in 1. By the look of it, it wouldn't matter which way it would hang since all the rings are evenly distributed. However, rings size would play a big part since larger rings would create a bigger 'hole'. So I think it really comes down to ring size and weave type, not orientation of the mail.

The difference in how the  links hang is that if they are horizintal  weapon points get hung up in the armor much easier, giving an enemy an advantage allowing them to either thrust a weapon through the links, or pull the wearer off balance.

Malandar

RawArt said:

I have had discussions with a PA on this as well, and he insists that his way is the correct way and it is not really horizontal. So he is doing it like that intentionally.

Just so long as they realize that not doing it the right way is costing them sales.

Toonces

I really had to zoom into that picture to see what you meant by 'hang vertically'. See attachment.

Seems like you're saying the center circle should connect to the other 4 circles at the top and bottom, instead of equidistant on all sides.

However, to me, this seems like more a function of gravity, instead of chainmail design. 

 

Malandar

Toonces said:

I really had to zoom into that picture to see what you meant by 'hang vertically'. See attachment.

Seems like you're saying the center circle should connect to the other 4 circles at the top and bottom, instead of equidistant on all sides.

However, to me, this seems like more a function of gravity, instead of chainmail design. 

 

Yeah exactly, the mail is designed to do that, gravity holds the weave together and when struck instyeadof getting hung up on a ring, the point of a weapon  would be deflected. If the weave is open like your picture  the point of a weapon could find a spit to  begin to be forced in.

agent unawares

Toonces said:

I really had to zoom into that picture to see what you meant by 'hang vertically'. See attachment.

Seems like you're saying the center circle should connect to the other 4 circles at the top and bottom, instead of equidistant on all sides.

However, to me, this seems like more a function of gravity, instead of chainmail design.

It's not, it's a function of how you orient the chainmail sheet. This talks about it a little.

https://sites.psu.edu/kevinthyneeportfolio/wp-content/uploads/sites/11431/2014/04/DefiningChainmailArmor.pdf

 

Malandar said:

The only reason to have your mail fall the wrong way is because you want a costume that resembles armor, and you don't have the patience to make something that resembles actual armor.

It's cheaper and lighter, too.

Malandar

This website is for people who make mail. They know how it is supposed to hang check out 8.3

 

 

http://www.mailleartisans.org/faqdisplay.cgi#8.3

Malandar

agent unawares said:

Toonces said:

I really had to zoom into that picture to see what you meant by 'hang vertically'. See attachment.

Seems like you're saying the center circle should connect to the other 4 circles at the top and bottom, instead of equidistant on all sides.

However, to me, this seems like more a function of gravity, instead of chainmail design.

It's not, it's a function of how you orient the chainmail sheet. This talks about it a little.

https://sites.psu.edu/kevinthyneeportfolio/wp-content/uploads/sites/11431/2014/04/DefiningChainmailArmor.pdf

 

Malandar said:

The only reason to have your mail fall the wrong way is because you want a costume that resembles armor, and you don't have the patience to make something that resembles actual armor.

It's cheaper and lighter, too.

Cheaper and lighter, but it wouldn't protect you from much. And the whole point of my rant here is that the "armor" that people are selling here has the rings the wrong way to be considered effective armor. Which sicks because I like a lot of the outfits , except for the mail being the wrong way.

MelanieL

My "favourite" is the one where the mail texture is chopped across the middle of a row of rings, so the garment has a whole lot of half or quarter-rings along its edge. I'm guessing that with a bit of motion they would all drop out. (Not that I've ever worn chain mail myself)

tj_1ca9500b

OK, just for fun, I applied a chainmail shader from my collection to a T-shirt.  I bought some medieval armor shaders from the Daz store, and they've been quite useful for a lot of other things that aren't armor related.  The set includes cloth, as well as leather and metal shaders...

Anyways, here's the pic:

Looking at the inset at the lower left, note how the rings form 'rows', with a thinner row of rings of rings linking each prominent row to the next prominent row below, in sort of a 'scaled' pattern with each prominent row laying almost on top of the next row down.

I think this is what the OP is looking for.  Of course, note the weirdness at the edges, where partial links form the borders, and also note how the orientation has 'twisted' on the sleeves, which is of course the downside of using shaders.  Sometimes you can use, scarfs, etc. to help hide the ragged edges, if you can work it out...

This shader kit also has vertical rows as well as horizontal rows, presumably to deal with this situation, assuming that the body area in question is segregated to allow this.  Also, some people might prefer the vertical look, but you get the point.

And yeah, ideally, it's better if the product incorporates this natively, as opposed to falling back on an armor shader.

 

 

 

agent unawares

Malandar said:

agent unawares said:

Toonces said:

I really had to zoom into that picture to see what you meant by 'hang vertically'. See attachment.

Seems like you're saying the center circle should connect to the other 4 circles at the top and bottom, instead of equidistant on all sides.

However, to me, this seems like more a function of gravity, instead of chainmail design.

It's not, it's a function of how you orient the chainmail sheet. This talks about it a little.

https://sites.psu.edu/kevinthyneeportfolio/wp-content/uploads/sites/11431/2014/04/DefiningChainmailArmor.pdf

 

Malandar said:

The only reason to have your mail fall the wrong way is because you want a costume that resembles armor, and you don't have the patience to make something that resembles actual armor.

It's cheaper and lighter, too.

Cheaper and lighter, but it wouldn't protect you from much. And the whole point of my rant here is that the "armor" that people are selling here has the rings the wrong way to be considered effective armor. Which sicks because I like a lot of the outfits , except for the mail being the wrong way.

Yeah, but for cosplayers, cheaper and lighter is a big deal, so people do have a reason to get armor made that way purposefully, not just because they're lazy. I'm not defending actually fighting in it.

Malandar

agent unawares said:

Malandar said:

agent unawares said:

Toonces said:

I really had to zoom into that picture to see what you meant by 'hang vertically'. See attachment.

Seems like you're saying the center circle should connect to the other 4 circles at the top and bottom, instead of equidistant on all sides.

However, to me, this seems like more a function of gravity, instead of chainmail design.

It's not, it's a function of how you orient the chainmail sheet. This talks about it a little.

https://sites.psu.edu/kevinthyneeportfolio/wp-content/uploads/sites/11431/2014/04/DefiningChainmailArmor.pdf

 

Malandar said:

The only reason to have your mail fall the wrong way is because you want a costume that resembles armor, and you don't have the patience to make something that resembles actual armor.

It's cheaper and lighter, too.

Cheaper and lighter, but it wouldn't protect you from much. And the whole point of my rant here is that the "armor" that people are selling here has the rings the wrong way to be considered effective armor. Which sicks because I like a lot of the outfits , except for the mail being the wrong way.

Yeah, but for cosplayers, cheaper and lighter is a big deal, so people do have a reason to get armor made that way purposefully, not just because they're lazy. I'm not defending actually fighting in it.

lol well yeah, but that is what aluminum links are for , if that is not light enough for you I don't know what is lol. but yeah, the whole point is I am not trying to make renders of larpers here.

Malandar

tj_1ca9500b said:

OK, just for fun, I applied a chainmail shader from my collection to a T-shirt.  I bought some medieval armor shaders from the Daz store, and they've been quite useful for a lot of other things that aren't armor related.  The set includes cloth, as well as leather and metal shaders...

Anyways, here's the pic:

Looking at the inset at the lower left, note how the rings form 'rows', with a thinner row of rings of rings linking each prominent row to the next prominent row below, in sort of a 'scaled' pattern with each prominent row laying almost on top of the next row down.

I think this is what the OP is looking for.  Of course, note the weirdness at the edges, where partial links form the borders, and also note how the orientation has 'twisted' on the sleeves, which is of course the downside of using shaders.  Sometimes you can use, scarfs, etc. to help hide the ragged edges, if you can work it out...

This shader kit also has vertical rows as well as horizontal rows, presumably to deal with this situation, assuming that the body area in question is segregated to allow this.  Also, some people might prefer the vertical look, but you get the point.

And yeah, ideally, it's better if the product incorporates this natively, as opposed to falling back on an armor shader.

 

 

 

Yeah that is  a prime example of mail weave hanging the wrong way. see how open that weave is compared to the links on the museum pieces?

tj_1ca9500b

Malandar said:

tj_1ca9500b said:

OK, just for fun, I applied a chainmail shader from my collection to a T-shirt.  I bought some medieval armor shaders from the Daz store, and they've been quite useful for a lot of other things that aren't armor related.  The set includes cloth, as well as leather and metal shaders...

Anyways, here's the pic:

Looking at the inset at the lower left, note how the rings form 'rows', with a thinner row of rings of rings linking each prominent row to the next prominent row below, in sort of a 'scaled' pattern with each prominent row laying almost on top of the next row down.

I think this is what the OP is looking for.  Of course, note the weirdness at the edges, where partial links form the borders, and also note how the orientation has 'twisted' on the sleeves, which is of course the downside of using shaders.  Sometimes you can use, scarfs, etc. to help hide the ragged edges, if you can work it out...

This shader kit also has vertical rows as well as horizontal rows, presumably to deal with this situation, assuming that the body area in question is segregated to allow this.  Also, some people might prefer the vertical look, but you get the point.

And yeah, ideally, it's better if the product incorporates this natively, as opposed to falling back on an armor shader.

 

 

 

Yeah that is  a prime example of mail weave hanging the wrong way. see how open that weave is compared to the links on the museum pieces?

Well, you can always make your own product, and share the results...

BTW, there are 'tighter' meshes included with the medieval armor shaders, but if you'd like to take this up with Traveler (the PA that went to the trouble of putting together the armor shader set), that'd be your best bet.  This goes for the 'regular' products as well.  Most PAs are doing this because they enjoy doing it, and have to balance the amount of time they spend on any particular product, versus the other projects that they have planned as well as other demands on their time.  And also, they are creating art and hence have their own artistic sensibilities...

As for 'loose' vs 'tight' there are historical examples that support a more loose config as well as the tighter config you seem to be referring to.  Wikipedia has some pics of some more 'open' configs.  Lower quality, to be sure, but they do exist.  Also, around the net, there are historical examples of both vertically and horizontally orineted mail from various cultures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_(armour)

Also, less effective does not equal ineffective.  And, as with anything else, there are tradeoffs involved.  Tighter mesh = more rings = more time to create.  Same for butted vs. riveted.  Sure, butted was less effective, and less durable, but it wasn't completely ineffective... otherwise the armor makers wouldn't have bothered.

 

 

wolf359

Realistic protective  battle gear has never been a prioirity in the Daz store
one dash of hot Earl Gray tea across  the torso and  Ms Cassini is done for.

https://www.daz3d.com/tactical-assault-outfit-for-genesis-8-males-and-females

outrider42

Don't forget that when it comes to the shaders, you can rotate the texture in LIE. Also, you could possibly stretch/shrink these layers to create the desired hanging effect, though you have to be careful to avoid making the rings look warped. But that could also work in your favors as real rings are going to be sideways a bit, so some warping might look natural. This is just my suggestion, I haven't done it myself because I don't have such shaders.

j cade

tj_1ca9500b said:

Malandar said:

tj_1ca9500b said:

OK, just for fun, I applied a chainmail shader from my collection to a T-shirt.  I bought some medieval armor shaders from the Daz store, and they've been quite useful for a lot of other things that aren't armor related.  The set includes cloth, as well as leather and metal shaders...

Anyways, here's the pic:

Looking at the inset at the lower left, note how the rings form 'rows', with a thinner row of rings of rings linking each prominent row to the next prominent row below, in sort of a 'scaled' pattern with each prominent row laying almost on top of the next row down.

I think this is what the OP is looking for.  Of course, note the weirdness at the edges, where partial links form the borders, and also note how the orientation has 'twisted' on the sleeves, which is of course the downside of using shaders.  Sometimes you can use, scarfs, etc. to help hide the ragged edges, if you can work it out...

This shader kit also has vertical rows as well as horizontal rows, presumably to deal with this situation, assuming that the body area in question is segregated to allow this.  Also, some people might prefer the vertical look, but you get the point.

And yeah, ideally, it's better if the product incorporates this natively, as opposed to falling back on an armor shader.

 

 

 

Yeah that is  a prime example of mail weave hanging the wrong way. see how open that weave is compared to the links on the museum pieces?

Well, you can always make your own product, and share the results...

BTW, there are 'tighter' meshes included with the medieval armor shaders, but if you'd like to take this up with Traveler (the PA that went to the trouble of putting together the armor shader set), that'd be your best bet.  This goes for the 'regular' products as well.  Most PAs are doing this because they enjoy doing it, and have to balance the amount of time they spend on any particular product, versus the other projects that they have planned as well as other demands on their time.  And also, they are creating art and hence have their own artistic sensibilities...

As for 'loose' vs 'tight' there are historical examples that support a more loose config as well as the tighter config you seem to be referring to.  Wikipedia has some pics of some more 'open' configs.  Lower quality, to be sure, but they do exist.  Also, around the net, there are historical examples of both vertically and horizontally orineted mail from various cultures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_(armour)

Also, less effective does not equal ineffective.  And, as with anything else, there are tradeoffs involved.  Tighter mesh = more rings = more time to create.  Same for butted vs. riveted.  Sure, butted was less effective, and less durable, but it wasn't completely ineffective... otherwise the armor makers wouldn't have bothered.

 

 

Aww man you sent me down a rabbit hole.. the wikimedia commons pictures of all the met mail and armor...

 

I did find something that the daz store is definitely lacking...

 

 

Cmon daz you know you want to....

Cortex

Is there a side by side diagram of this difference somewhere that CLEARLY shows the difference ? It only has to show a small section of links maybe 8 x 8 or less.

Photos and model renders aren't so good at explaining it as without knowing exactly what to look for they all look different or the same from each other.

 

A hand drawn small section of links may be best to explain this they can exaggerate distances where needed to show it, side by side with a drawing of the links done wrong.

GolaM

Ok, this has been educational. Thank you Malandar. I´m going to keep that in mind when doing armor.

Most people won't recognize this though, and general design considerations also apply. A different orientation leads to a much denser chain-mesh which results in a lot more visual noise.

Hiro Protagonist

I had a go at trying to duplicate the pattern from the museum photo in Blender. Is this more like it? You can see the difference between the horizontal and vertical pitches at the edges.

 

Malandar

Hiro Protagonist said:

I had a go at trying to duplicate the pattern from the museum photo in Blender. Is this more like it? You can see the difference between the horizontal and vertical pitches at the edges.

 

That us exactly how mail is supposed to hang to be the most effective armor.