Yet Another Sliding Feet Rant!
kwannie
Posts: 865
Hello All,
I just wanted to put a post out there to see if anyonencould shed some expert light on the ever frustrating issue of sliding feet in DS. I have read several posts and seen many suggestions but there never seems to be a consensus amoung DAZ users about how to accurately reselve to issue.
OK so first let me state what I am attempting to do. I have been able to use the techniques outlined here in the forums to successfully convert MMD (MikuMikuDance) motion into BVH via 3DXchange. BVH files come out extremely accurate except for the sliding feet. Now, the motions I generally convert are of a character standing or pacing in generally a small are on a stage while they sing, so there is not usually just a huge amount of of leg movement anyway. I think though that is what makes the sliding obvious. Some motions do have some dancing a bit to the beat though.
After I convert the motion in 3DXchange (imotion) and open it in Iclone the foot contact tools do a great job of stablizing the feet and the motion is stable also if opened in MMD. Even if a DAZ character is used inside of Iclone ...no issues. Only after it is converted to BVH is the sliding introduced. I have read all kinds of things like turning off IK, obviously turning off limits, changing the height of the character. and even saw a tutorial somewhere that suggested opening the joint editor and extending the base of the hip bone down to floor level theoretically preventing the heels from rising or penitrating the floor level. None of these has been effective for me. I have used MCJCasuals scripts to pin feet to the floor but that kind of makes the animation lose the effect of dancing. All of his scripts are amazing and do exaclty what they say they do. I just need a bit of movement to stay in the legs for the animations I have. OH, and in general the animations exceed 9,000 to 13,000 frames, the length of a song.
So, I know rant rant...........Does anyone know an effective technique to orient the hip to keep it more or less level and balaced ( keep from dipping forcing feet below floor surface) , and keeping the feet paralell to the ground without sliping all around even when character is more or less stationary. I know this stuff has been asked a hundred times but maybe I missed the silver bullet somewhere. I know that there are a lot of very knowledgable folks here in the forums...............just hoping. Thanks for bearing with me on this frustrating subject.
Kwan
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Comments
I wish I could help, I would love it if ska motion were to move into the 21rst century and not use dance mocaps from 1985-1995!...Where can you get these MMD files? As I would love to convert them into daz studio!
Takezo
I followed the steps outlined in the link below to convert from MMD
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/56420/share-solution-how-to-convert-mmd-s-motion-data-into-ds#latest
Can you get by without showing the feet at all? Think more in terms of real life than 3D animation. In 3D animation, animators feel the need to show the entire figure, for some imagined "wow factor". In reality, unless the feet are doing something special like tap dancing or "River Dancing" or some "stomp" thing, it's not the focal point and doesn't need to be shown at all. At the very least, for a J-Pop Idol type of animation, you can show the feet only during walks and standstills, but when the singer has to sing and sway, shoot them from the thigh up. You still see the hip gyrations, but don't have to deal with foot slide.
I am not aware of any easy solution.
The problem is the differences in geometry between the original model and the model you are now trying to use the animation(BVH) on. The problem is not the converting to BVH but when the BVH is applied to a different model.
To do what you ask usually requires a recalculation of a lot (if not all) the lower bone rotation keys in the animation to correct for the differences in model geometry (e.g. number, length, orientation, relationship of the leg/hip/pelvis/foot/toe bones). The calculation needs to know the original model geometry and the new target geometry. Then there is the issue of limits. Depending on the accuracy required there is some interesting decision theory that is needed where the original target points cannot be reproduced in the new model geometry. The authors of the aniblock retargeters currently available for DAZ have the advantage of known source and target model geometry but they would be well aware most of the other issues.
Functionality in Mixamo used to be excellent but no longer available for new animations. Motionbuilder's functionality is quite good. Blender has some capability. I think I read that MMD also has some function for adjusting animations for different models but not positive on that. There are sure to be other programs with capability.
I am not saying it cannot be developed in DAZ, just saying that it is not a simple calculation. I would certainly buy an add-in (or script) if available.
Surreal,
I think I recognize your name from the renderosity forum, talking about VWD or I could be wrong. Well, the original geometry would be an MMD character. Is there a way to adjust the the Daz characters to the dimensions required for the BVH? The original motion would have been in VMD format which is the MMD motion file type. On of the things I noticed is that in parts of the BVH that the hip dips more that in some places forcing the feet to plunge beneath the floor. I saw a discussion on the same BVH effecting two characters of different heights in different ways. Do you think changing the height would help?
Kwan
Hi
There is no solution to sliding feet from BVH file imported in Daz studio....none
In Iclone or MOBU etc. the feet are prevented from penetrating the floor by the Floor contact IK solver native to the programs
particularly when the root(hip) is being lowered in Squatting motions etc..
This constraint/floor contact solving data cannot be stored as BVH Data thus All BVH Data is FK .
Daz studio Does not have a native Hand/Foot Floor contact solver.
This is true with any kind of program native restraint system
I use Natual Motion Endorphin for Dynamics ragdoll physics simulations
Endorphin has a Constraint event system that will rigidly pin an Avatars bodyparts ,during motion ,to create events such as a person hanging on for dear life during gravity loss or sudden decompression in a space ship etc.
when I export to BVH to Daz or poser that pinned bodypart
flails all over the place no matter what I do to try to immobilize it.
Until Daz get its own proper Foot/hand contact IK solver.
(Short of going through and manually fixing each frame),you will not Prevail against sliding feet in Daz studio..sorry
Hmmmmmm, the solvers are the key then? Well, I do happen to have Ikinema Web Animate but it seems to take issue with the amount of frames I try to import into it. I am constantly dealing with it crashing all the time. It does offer a fantasic full body solver and great restraint system so that auto keying can be introduce as well as a sliding solver. But it crashes on me everytime I use it. Like I said before I use animation with upwards of 9,000 frames, and I suspect that is what causes the hick-ups. It is also the reason I'm looking for an automated solution. The results of the resolver are saved as offsets in the BVH export so I may already have the perfect solution. I don't recall it being terribly expensive when I bought it.
Kwan
Try Unity. It is free & always improving at a faster clip than all these other products.
Try Unity for what exactly? To fix the bvh, or just transport all assets into Unity and dump DAZ? Getting everything I already have available in DAZ would be a lot of work to make it all compatable with Unity. I agree that there are a lot of nice features, but there many nice features in Blender and Carrara but my content and plugins ( such as VWD and Age Morphs, Muscularity Morphs, Face Morphs...etc. is why I stick with DAZ and its easy to use character dials.....................for the moment anyway. Unity would require to many exports to get it where I want it.
I have seen Ikinema
used for cleanup & retargeting of mocap data from
various optical systems such as Vicon etc.
Tim Vining ,the maker of the"Star trek Aurora "Film, with Poser& C4D, uses Ikinema with his optical mocap System.
If indeed Ikinema can bake those Ik foot contact frames to rigid FK positions over several hundred or
thousand frames in a BVH export, that may be a solution.
However your weak link will still be Daz studio's parsing of the imported BVH which frankly
Always needs tweaking with GraphMate KeyMate in my experience.
I have usedit before to get rid of the jerkiness in bvh files but I always run into the white screen of death on long animations. Maybe there is some info in the Ikinema forums.
Kwan
Animation of course. Or Blender. It's as already been said without tedious corrective work in DAZ Studio you are not going to export animations from another product and retarget them to look nice in DAZ Studio.
Since you are talking creating animation in many 3rd party apps for use in DAZ Studio here is another for $160
https://www.nukeygara.com/
Wow Nonesuch!!!! That is very cool! I just wonder if it crashes less than some of the other fancy software I have purchased. I do primarily rely on recreating MMD scenes in DAZ with a few tweaks to the animations and realistic characters I'll try to post a short clip soon. It really is an amazing transformation. Oh it looks like nukeygara is another license oriented packet. I'm not a huge fan of that type of format but still looks cool.
Yes, I can't afford it now but it is nice. I intend to buy it this year.
They have a trial period by the way.
If you import a Daz genesis model into unity will unity keep its
SubD levels HD morphs and JCMs??... nope
What about Blender??....Not really
I can confirm it does not for Iclone pro.
Trying to reproduce your Daz genesis models mesh& detail fidelity
after import to another animation program will be much more labor intensive than having to adjust imported mocap in daz studio
with keymate /Grapmate and Mcasuals free key frame reducer and other scripts
The OP owns the nearest best thing to Autodesk Motionbuilder
..IClone pro Pipeline.
None of the other programs mentioned will automaticly Characterize genesis rigs for native animation Like Iclone
Even Motionbuilder requires alot of manual Character mapping with a G3/8 figure.
I honestly doubt spending another $160 USD on yet another
program ,with no direct genesis support,will solve a problem
that is essentially a limitation of the BVH format itself.
BTW When you constrain a figure to a walk path in iclone
you get excellent fidelity in your imported BVH in Daz studio.
Here is a genesis figure Doing the impossible in Daz studio
.......Walking up an incline into my Free Escape pod I am sharing on ShareCG
For me purposes, good animation is better than good models so well the OP has to consider their perspectives on what they are trying to acheive, not your perspective.
Indeed and the OP has clearly stated his perspective
He wants his models to look as they do in Daz studio
for his final renders.
Exporting FBX to Unity/Blender
would be a bit counter intuitive.
Well no, the OP has stated they want but but you've already stated they aren't getting both and hence the OP using of 'rant' in the title. They know they ain't going to get both in DS either.
$160 for easier and better animations created via FBX exchange is a good deal, besides which I've already stated that they offer a trial period long enough for him to thoroughly test is that will improve the quality of his animations any from his current tools.
Maybe they should consider DAZ to Blender bridge:
http://diffeomorphic.blogspot.it/
addon is free & Blender is free.
Also, OP, there is Morph3D that helps serve as a bridge between Unity 3D & DAZ Studio:
https://www.morph3d.com/
Now, they ain't going to know if those serve their desires better than DAZ 3D, which they've stated isn't satisfactoey, as an animation program until they try them.
Thanks for the link!
I love all the outstanding insights you are all offering. I love this information, but again I am tied to the speciffic capabilities of the DAZ content offered by third party developers, primarily Virtual World Dynamics.I have not seen a match in the method to facilitate cloth and hair, and several items from Philosopher. Addons like breastjig that offer realism in a simple one or two clicks to any length of animation in DAZ. Other programs offer softbody and physics, particles, volumetric, liquid, on and on, but require a PHD to understand how to implement. I have found tons of 3rd party support for daz on ShareCG and deviantart chock full of FREE scripts, models, assets props clothes and the multitudes of older sites full of free downloads. I think in DAZ it is a matter of some of the hobbyist and enthusiests with well advanced skills to keep offering better and better solutions. I don't think DAZ is going to sink its capital into turning its product into MAYA. As long as most of us continue to drewl over the new content that offers even the slightest promise of improved functionality like a few new face morphs or something, who needs to develope functionality in the base software.(especially if its free to begin with). There is the rub then, they got us, no matter how close we get we can't have exactly what we want................unless..........$$$$. LOL I guess your right all in all this is still a Rant thread.
Takezo,
You are welcome, let me know if you need any help with it.
If one is already invested in IClone pro pipeline
why buy another third party program that does not have
the Genesis 3 rigging already present as a one click retargeting Template??.
also Show us some examples of where "Akeytsu" will produce easier& better animation than Iclone.
Anyone who actually animates and uses Iclone
understands why the OP ,or anyone with access to the Iclone pro Pipeline, would have zero need for this "Akeytsu" program.
It is basic import your FBX from another application/animate it/
Export the FBX out to a game engine....lovely
We already have this ability in Iclone pro pipeline and much
more including Dynamic Cloth & hair& rigid body physics and Scene export to Alembic for rendering in lightwave Maya or C4D etc
I see no option to import and retarget third party BVH files
to a Daz genesis rigs in Akeytsu
(as the OP is already doing )
I see no options to export BVH Data to use Daz studio in Akeytsu.
(As the OP is already doing with the usual
problems related to some BVH files)
Only game resolution FBX rigs that the OP has no apparent interest in using as he needs fully functional
DAZ native genesis figures in his animation rendering pipeline
Read the I/O options for yourself for "Akeytsu".
https://www.nukeygara.com/public/files/discover-akeytsu/Akeytsu_FBX.pdf
Again..Why??... you get a base res Blender armature in Blender with none of the functionality of a Daz native genesis model that the OP prefers for his rendering pipeline.
We all can read about the features of other applications and make
useful evaluations about their animation capabilities and compatabilty with our perfered Genesis platform.
Look I get it ..you have decided that Daz studio/Genesis is not suitable for any character animation work by your personal standards. That is certainly Your choice to make
But please understand that not everyone is looking to
completely abandon the Daz Genesis figure platform and All of the versatility it offers
and go back to rendering Video game res FBX figures with rubbish looking joints.
I have a simple question: Why use BVH files? I gave up on them long ago and started converting them to FBX in MB before importing to DS. That should cure your problem.
drzap,
Are you serious? MB costs over $1600.00 a year. I can't afford that. I got the Iclone Pro package for well under $200.00 bucks on a promotional. I'm not a proffessional I just do this as a hobby. MB is for folks with big budgets. Thanks for the input but that is out of my league.
Kwan
Folks I do love all the info about other packages and their capabilities, I always love reading comments from those with expertise......keep it coming. Wolf..........you just get me............you know exactly where I'm coming from, Thanks! But, I always find it interesting to here about new things. The bottom line with me as a hobbyist is always cost, cost cost. By all means keep the insights coming! Thanks all!!!
Kwan
Seriously ??...Daz FBX importer is rubbish..
are you using Brian Steagles Duf workaround?? Please elaborate.
Not to derail the thread but its curious to me. How many users would be willing to pay for a untility in DS that binds feet and hands to objects as needed? I personally think such a feature would be better served as native to DS, but if it were a plugin would anyone be willing to pay for it?
Of the various DS animations I've seen over the years the ice skating while standing still has definitely limited the value of the impression for me. I know I'd be willing to pay for it if I ever planned on animating anything at all in DS.
Poser 11 pro
imports most FBX with animation including iClone and Mixamo figures
save as cr2 load in DAZ studio edit convert rigging to weightpainting general weights
works for me!
yes I agree @ Rashad Carter I would pay for a foot hand pinning plugin its way over due .
on that note this is just my 2 cents take for what its worth.
when animating with daz studio you have to take into account the limites that come with using daz studio for animation. its free hobby render software. thats all. Trust me daz studio is all I use for my animations . there is only 2 good ways to get around the floor slip & slide issue
1) do your animation with keymate and render 1 png at a time- one frame at a time and with each keyframe render fix the slipage.before rendering the next key-frame. 2) use a little movie magic and put your creative editing and camera skills to work, avoid using feet as much as possible , ( in real life how much do you look at peoples feet) specially in contact with the ground. I try to shoot as little as possible the feet slips parts unless its a action shot requiring the whole screen to be shot in full screen then i'm stuck doing it by hand . other wise daz studio is great platform for animation, for people like me with basic skills using home equipment just as a hobby. I know their not Disney quality animations, But nor do they need to be to get my story across to the viewer. I accepts the limitations Daz Studio has and work around them the best i can with video editing and camera angles. :) I mean really its daz studio.. if you want Disney then learn 3d max & Maya
Yep, I'm sure I would pay for a a foot sliding plugin too, if its not too outrageous!
Kwan