More Non-photorealisitic Renders (NPR II)
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This is very interesting. ZBrush has been on my list for a while now, and every time they have a sale I get really tempted (but the $800+ price tag keeps me at bay – at least until the end of the year when I have finished paying off my car and some other purchases). I'm very intrigued because it is supposed to integrate will with Manga Studio (in other words, you can use Manga Studio (Clip Studio Paint) to draw directly on the models).
So, can you pose the figures in ZBrush, or are you posing them in Daz Studio and then importing them as OBJs?
Have you seen this video on Cel Shading? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4_Sc5NRUj0
Really cool Spidey! Colors are bright and clear and the background buildings look like they came right out of a comic. I also love the little touch of making the webbing smaller (to indicate distance) on that little strand of webbing to our far right. The one thing I would suggest is to go back and look at the original Spider-Man comics. They don't show his ears as lumps under the mask: his head is always just an oval. If you were going for a more photoreal look, I think the ear lumps would be okay, but with the classic comic look I would suggest dialing them down.
I really like this one, though, and I've simply got to take the time to download that web brush!
We have missed you, bud! You always bring a lot to the discussions here. Thanks for the comments on the Galaxy Prime cover. I put a lot of work into it so it is nice to know it paid off in the end with something that garners a response from people. The whole digital painting thing is very new to me, but something that I have wanted to try for a long time. When I look at it I see most of the "flaws" first. But as time passes I do manage to look at the successful parts first.
For me, this attempt to define "graphic novel" versus "comic book" is a black hole. Meaning lots of good ideas and discussions take place but, ultimately, they get sucked into the void without resulting in a solid definition of "What is a Graphic Novel?" I say this because there are so many exceptions and deviations that make a simple definition difficult. For example, what about autobiographies? Is Persepolis a "novel"? I think you could make a case that it is a novelization of her life, but it really is non-fiction. But what about Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud? It is a long-form non-fictional work about comics. Definitely not a "novel" in any sense of the word. And then we hit things like Frank Miller's Ronin (which I just reread this past month). It was originally serialized as a six-issue mini-series, but it was clearly designed to be read as a complete story.
To this day, I do not have a solid definition of "What is a Graphic Novel." At least not an academic definition that can withstand scrutiny.
So, for me, I tend to work on this loose definition and use the term "Graphic Novel" to describe any long-form comic book. Mentally, I'm okay with defining "long-form" as anything with a page-count of 50 pages or more (although, truth be told, I'm much more comfortable if the work has 80+ pages). And I use the term "comic book" for anything shorter than that, and especially for anything intended to be serialized in the traditional stapled spine method.
BTW: I was talking to the guys at the comics shop recently and found out that they use the term "floppies" to describe the comics that are published monthly. They use the term "trades" for anything printed with a square spine.
I definitely cannot and will not argue with you about your advice. I think it's good. It's not advice that would work for me, but I think it could help a lot of people. What I find interesting is that, essentially, you describe the mindsets of the Fine Artist in contrast to the Commercial Artist. By that, I mean that the Fine Artist must seek to find an inner voice or vision and not release the work until the final product has been refined to the point that it equals the original vision. In other words, "don't put it out there until it's ready." The Commercial Artist deals with deadlines and editors and additional feedback and puts it out there "as is" and then moves on to the next project, hoping to learn something from each publication or release of the work.
I worked professionally as a print journalist when I was younger and I think that really shaped me as a commercial artist. Almost nothing I do actually captures the vision in my mind, but I put it out there anyway and hope that I learn enough along the way so that my next project is better.
Anyway, thanks for the long, thoughtful posts. You always contribute a lot and I hope you'll swing back by sooner rather than later!
This looks amazing - well done.
I used Z brush years ago, and although it was great for sculpting I found it to be quite difficult to integrate with other software. The newer releases, such as R5 in the Youtube video, or 2018, 2019 versions make it so much easier to work with other software. The interface is still weird, but once you get used to it, I suppose it can be really helpful.
The new NPR shaders and blend styles are only available in the 2019 release. They are pretty good, and you can chnage the look of it through using various sliders.
I pose the models in Daz, which is still better than most software for posing and setting up stance positions for 3D models than most software. You have to export as an obj file to take into Z brush, and merge the UV maps down into a single image.
Posing in Z brush is quite difficult, as you are moving polygons through selections, it's much easier to reposition in Daz and re-export, but that's obviously time consuming.
You can use the polypaint tools in Z brush to paint materials, textures and height directly onto the model, which can give you some nice effects. The rendering is good and sharp. I am still evaluating it at the moment. It's got its pros and cons, but I've been wanting to learn Z brush for quite a while. The stuff the artists are designing over at Z brush Central is incredible.
If the results are better than what I can achieve in either Unity or Daz then I might seriously consider Z brush. I'll post more test renders when I produce them and let you know what I think.
Thank you very much for the info. The fact that it doesn't work with the rigging for poses is probably a good indication that this is not a tool I need to review at this time. At least not in the short term, because I already have tools I can use for sculpting the few props I need and I can use Blacksmith 3D for texturing (and since I work with simple b&w textures right now, it is more than adequate).
Still... I see some big new and shiny thing and I just want to have it!
But... I think I'll resist for now until I see it deliver something I really can't live without.
Thanks again.
thank you mmitchell, artini et jepsonpeteCMT :)
Another hit! Love the little details and the way you nail that water-colored image look. His face is a little yellow for my taste, but the hair, lighting and pose are spot on.
Oh, yes. Another hit. Headwax at his best.
My latest - Alone
You really capture a sense of alienation and poverty. Nice job.
In some ways I worked really hard on this one and in other ways not so much. I plan to revist this character as this is my favorite version of her. I really started collecting the X-Men in the late 80's early 90's.
PWGhost is a very underrated 3DL shader.
Here it is being used for a minor character for my webcomic Mysterious Missouri. She'll only appear in a short, upcoming chapter.
The shader gets regular use in my comic, as one of the main character has a pet, who is a tiny ghost cat.
PWGhost is one of a handful of things I really miss when I do Iray stuff.
I have tried very hard to make something somilr... buuut no
For now, I have no reason to migrate to Iray, and shaders like the PW series are exactly why. Single pass solutions that render almost faster than the time it takes me to type up the filename to save them under.
Thanks, this has given me some thought actually. Originally this was just for testing before going into the main storyline (which uses different clothes, props and location), but your suggestion has given me the idea of how to expand this to become the "past" story and the personality of the characters. I couldn't think of a good opening for how two dudes would meet up to talk about a job. So this will help that out. This past experience taking place in Africa; then "2 years later" (for example), and then into the meetup about the job.
Thanks for the perspective. Yeah, the first and second images do have some changes for comparisons. Such as the first one, I used the Stroke effect for the solid outlines, while the second went with a light blurred outline (using a gaussian blur of the character silhouettes). The lighting was different, namely I forgot which angle of the 'sun' I was using. Hence in the second image, the sun rather than face on, was behind. Definitely a noticable difference. I had wondered if in the first image, the main character stood out too much. But does not appear to be the case. So I'll go more with the first image effect.
Not sure as to why the picture came out compressed, but have removed the image sizing from the sourcecode. May have been due to the quote effect. On my desktop appears fine, but on the phone, yeah, does come out incorrectly.
I do agree with terms of comic and graphic novel; though I will admit I do use them interchanglable ... which being pointed out there is a difference, I will take more care to avoid that.
I prefer a series with a story arc, but do agree, I want to avoid the sandbox episode effect. The Babylon 5 TV series is an example of the format I prefer. A long story arc (in that case, 5 seasons), with some episodes as "fillers" if needed for breaks. In the B5 series, the main characters mostly stayed throughout the series; which did still have somewhat a sandbox to it. Whereas with The Walking Dead and Game of Thrones has helped to push to the mass that a storyline can continue without requiring all of the characters to remain.
Yes, I am hoping to get that right style of "drawing", without taking up too much time. I had hoped that I would have time for such work, but the real work, travel, family and then fatigue just suck the energy out. So I think this process I am getting at, will keep the time down and thus can continue to produce visual content with the rest of the life-work-load. The good thing I like is that some mistakes can be made (be rendering, textures, sketches, lines, etc) and can be 'forgiven' (or masked by some touchups) as compared to real photo renders. Along without needing a lot of stuff in the background, such as walking in a normal city during the day...
Personally, I think your Batman pic is there.
Would like to comment of the image postings by others, but don't want to be running away with the postings.
They all look good to me, especially the 'sketched' fly.
Hello everybody! I've been following along with these NPR threads since the first one, and I have to say how impressed I am with everybodies work! I've really found a ton of inspiration, as well as motivation reading along with the conversation, and I'm nervous to show what I have but I think it's time that I stop being only a reader and jump in. This was rendered in IRAY, and it wasn't done in an NPR kind of way, so if this doesn't count just let me know and I won't clutter the thread with any more. I've done a ton of postwork, however, following many different processes I've learned from you all right here in these forums. I do hope you like it! Let me know!
I know it is really dark, and I'm actually colorblind so I hope the colors make sense. I've tried doing the black and white thing, but even though I can't see most of the colors accurately I still think the colored version has more depth. I don't think I'm very good working with straight values lol.
Ok, thanks!
duckbomb :
Welcome to the fold -- That is a great first entry - I love it.
I don't think it is too dark at all. It looks like a very good night scene, and you killed it with all the lighting - especially the lighting being thrown on the fence.
The style you came up with is terrific, and it totally fits in here - it is definitely NPR. It doesn't matter what render engine you start with as long as you are trying for stylized renders whether via scripting within the engine, or any kind of post work.
Looking forward to future postings...
Mike :
You make a great point -- I'll leave the definitions to the experts who rate and catalog the works.
I agree there are now many variables for determinations, and it appears even more categories now, but I am going off what I learned from the industry in the late 1980's/early 1990's
This is a great picture. The darker areas provide a nice contrast to the lights, which are nicely placed around the picture. It reminds me of one of those pictures where you contantly discover new things every time you look at it. Nice work.
It has a slight impressionistic art style, particularly around the garden lights and the cast light from the door window and over the door. But you have pretty much defined your own unique style.
Nicely composed, I think it would be great to see more of your artwork.
This has a nice flat drawing effect. I have no idea how you created this, but it's really impressive.
Have you by any chance used Google Sketchup or sketchmake to create the backwalls, windows, etc?
The muted colours really add to the watercolour, or coloured pencil sketch effect you are going for here. Nice work.
Thank you very much! I'm glad you like it, I've been focusing a ton of my postwork and I'm learning that there are a lot of things I don't understand about lights... I use the ghost light kit almost entirely here lol... It's a frame in a whole page, when I finish up the page I'll post it here! Thanks again!
Thanks for the warm welcome! I've not done a ton of outdoor scenes, and I certainly learned a lot about how to try to balance dark and night. I much prefer daytime/indoor scenes lol. I'm also really glad to hear this counts as a NPR! I've found things like the OSO Toon shader and LineRender discussions particularily helpful, and I felt more aligned with this side of things because of the heavy postwork process, so I'm stoked to be able to join in the conversation. The light on the fence is a random light from my library tilted specifically out the window, I was afraid it was too harsh here, but I'm glad to hear you liked it!
Thanks for the encouragement!
This is a really nice image, and I instantly got an impressionist vibe (probably assisted by the fact I recently saw the Van Gough exhibit here in Houston and I've been reading about Impressionist painters). This vibe is particularly strong at the porch light area where the effect really looks like stipled paint. I also really like the light on the bushes and the fence. I'm very impressed with this and very happy that you are joining the discussion. Did you think of adding any people inside the house? I kept looking at the windows hoping to spy someone doing something.
I'm looking forward to seeing more soon.
BTW: If you don't mine me asking, what is the degree to which you are color blind? I found out 10 years ago that my youngest brother is red/green color blind. We were both in our 40s and he had never mentioned it before.
Thank you! All of the images you've posted have been amazing, as well! I had origionaly thought of going with B&W because of what you'd been doing, but in the end I couldn't ever get it dialed in right. To get it posted up on this forum I had to shrink it way down, but the actual image is in 8K (for printing), and a lot of the stipled paint look is really small strokes that you can't see here... The way the forum seems to handle pictures is... ok... but I do think it changed the vibe of what I had a litttle. I'm so glad you liked it, though, and now I feel brave enough to post another. My intention was to make a page where the camera zooms in to a guy in a chair there in the living room, but I'm still post-processing the whole thing. I'll post it up when I'm done! I didn't include him in this render, though, because I was pushing the polygon limit of my rather dated hardware.
As far as the colorblind thing goes, I'm really color deficient, but that ususally requires a more detailed description so I just say "colorblind" beceause peopke know that. For me, I can't see shades, and what I see is influenced by the light around it. The best I can say is that I can pile up crayons from a 250 color box into about 13 piles of matching colors. Where you'll see it in my renders is that in pictures that have a general "warm" color palette to them, my oranges will look red and my blues will look purple or even pink, because to me it looks right. It also works in the opposite, where in warm palette paintings I'll over-compensate with the cool colors because everything looks muddy to me, and I end up with pictures that have a little more color than real-life. Same thing with my clothes... I'll end up more colorful because I feel bland and monotone. It's funny, considering the truth.
I'm also not super surprised to hear that you didn't know about it until an older age. That is exactly how it worked for me, and I hear it all the time when I talk about it with people. I think because it doesn't feel like a "disability" and doesn't really affect us (for the most part), it is something that can either go undiagnosed for a really long time, or people don't even really feel the need to bring it up. Some of my close friends probably don't even know, I just brought it up here because I offered a picture up for critique, but aside from wearing the occasional pink shirt when I think it is grey it really doens't affect me much.
I'm working on that page right now, I'll post it later today when I'm done. :) I don't do much "foruming" in my life, but between this and my other post regarding the sale I've found this to be a super encouraging place!
I'm including a few new render tests from Z brush using the NPR shader. I'm going to share my overall opinion, if that may be of help to others here.
The software is obviously very powerful, but also pretty restriction in terms of animation. It is intended for artists working on signle images/pieces as opposed to ongoing series such as comic books.
You import obj files, which creates lots of issues with texturing and applying transparency maps to things like eyelashes and hair. Since it is only 2.5D it isn't true 3D, so you are rotating around the object, setting up the right lighting.
A great advantage is being able to sculpt extra detail onto the characters and even using polypainting, so painting directly onto the object, adding new details or textures.
The NPR shader is really powerful. It is a full procedural generator, allowing you to change sliders to create a desired effect, whether that is a painting look, manga style outlines, pencil sketch etc. You can also lay over 12 effects layers to add extra complexity to the final image.
For people looking for a great one piece image I would say this is good software, for people wanting to create a full comic book series I would say this software is too much hard work.
Using a posterize effect in Z brush I have created some nice shadows and outlines, however, they are similar to what mmitchell_houston is creating using Poser software which obviously has the extra advantage of animation etc.
Overall, as much as I like the results I think I am going to stick with Unity and Daz Studio
These look great! I had experimented with ZBrush quite a lot, also, and I came to the same conclusion as you. Ultimately, I couldn't ever get hair and eyes to do what I wanted to very easily... It's a shame, though, because if the pipeline between the two covered more bases then I think the inclusion of all of the NPR filters in the 2019 version would have done more for us Daz-aholics.
Has anybody tried using some of the filter programs meant for Instragram or something? I uploaded one through my phone the other day through a few different filters and this came out... I tweaked it in PS a bit, but all in all it's pretty nice, I think. It's really blue... gonna have to try to fix that. I still have that full comic page, but I haven't done post-work to it, yet, so I'll post it up eventually...
This looks awesome ... I like photodonut and filter forge, too. If you remember your process, I'd be very interested in seeing the steps you took to get such a clean image.
Today I decided to spend a little time playing around with the new La Femme figure to see if she could be fitted into my current workflow. I still need to run some more tests to see how well she adapts to Victoria 4 poses. To be honest, I should have worked on her expression a little more, but overall I like some of the new features the figure has to offer. The fabric draping was simulated in the Cloth Room.
As usual, this was created with Poser Pro 11 and Clip Studio Paint.
Collossus. Not happy with his uniform. I will probably revisit.