OT: Star Trek Discovery

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  • ghastlycomicghastlycomic Posts: 2,528
    RawArt said:

    Again I have enjoyed another episode.......in spite of that dumb-assed security officer releasing the creature knowing her phasors would not harm it *rolls eyes*

    But I have to wonder ...if Vog has to sacrifice everything about himself to the matriarchs of the Mokai..and be remade.....could that be when the klingons get a nudge in their appearance to look closer to what we know?

    (personally I kinda like their new design....except their costumes)

    But if there is a change, that could help some of the purists who are hating on their new look.

    I think they killed off Tasha Worf to show the audience "We're all Game Of Thrones with this Trek and absolutely anybody can bite it at any moment".

     

    Also so far they've shown us a Star Fleet that casually commits the war crime of desecrating a corpse as well as a Star Fleet that thinks nothing of torturing an innocent, and possibly sapient animal just because it's convenient for them to do so. Someone needs to hook a generator up to Gene Roddenberry's corpse and solve our world energy crisis. It would apparently be the Star Fleet way now.

  • MardookMardook Posts: 291

    And the Klingon's ate Georgiou... so much for their so called purity! They can't even keep these Klingons consistent.

  • ButchButch Posts: 795

    The more episodes I see, the less I like.  To me, the predictability started when Cadet Tilly, the roommate, opened her mouth.  Then, in this latest episode, the security officer's behaviour and subsequent death.  And, the sudden realisation "gosh! this creature is only violent because we don't understand it".  To my mind, it'll probably get worse. 

    One major bugbear for me, Pickard spoke in his native british accent, why can't Lorca? 

     

  • Singular BluesSingular Blues Posts: 735
    edited October 2017
    Butch said:

    One major bugbear for me, Pickard spoke in his native british accent, why can't Lorca? 

     

    Because he didn't want to.

    tl;dr:

    Because he wanted to have git'er done as a signature phrase and was disappointed when he was informed that it is traademarked.

    Picard is French, so his Scots Gaelic influenced RP is rather quite strange. As I previously suggested, Georgiou (as a name) is so Greek, it hurts yet speaks with a Maylay accent. A particularly "home town one," as well I know some Maylay Chinese, and they speek with rather more RP than Georgiou uses.

    Lorca, as a surname, is Spanish (Gabriel Garcia Lorca is a famous Spanish poet, btw).

    I'm not sure Stewart ever considered playing Picard any other way. Yeoh and Isaacs specifically had the choice as to how they were going to play their accents. Yeoh decided to go with where she's from, and Isaacs specifically chose to do vaguely US southern.

    Edit:
    Variety: Was his Southern accent something you brought to him?
    Isaacs: Yes. I had no interest in being English and being a very pale shadow of the brilliant Patrick Stewart [Capt. Jean-Luc Picard on “Star Trek: The Next Generation”]. I just wanted to do something that would make it interesting for the audience, and new and fresh. I hadn’t heard a captain who sounded like this. And he’s a military man, but he can be immensely charming. I’ve been privileged enough to work with the [U.S. Army] Rangers at Fort Benning, and no matter where you come from in America, if you train down South where most of the bases are, you pick up some form of a Southern accent. And I wanted something that had subliminal hints at the military.

    Post edited by Singular Blues on
  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,465
    edited October 2017

    "Also so far they've shown us a Star Fleet that casually commits
     the war crime of desecrating a corpse"

    In Enterprise( decades before this)
    Captain Archer put a live  alien mercenary in an air lock
    and depressurized it to make him reveal what he knew about the "Zindi"
    I am pretty sure that the federation is not following  the same "geneva convention "that
    "NATO" is in our time.

    "Star Fleet that thinks nothing of torturing an innocent, and possibly
     sapient animal just because it's convenient for them to do so. "

    Perhaps PETA does not exist in future societies

    Besides Lorca has been given "black Ops" authority

    and well.... that is all I dare say here  on that subject.

    I think this weeks episode borrowed heavily from Frank Herberts "DUNE"
    That "tartegrade" sitting in that enclosure being used to essentialy "fold Space"
    Was quite Like the mutated Guild navigators from  the "Duniverse"

    Post edited by wolf359 on
  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 1,813
    It's disappointing for me, about 2 out of 5 stars. The Klingons are tedious on screen, slow stilted speech and faces that barely move. It's just not clicking with me.
  • bluejauntebluejaunte Posts: 1,680

    First two episodes didn't work for me. Last two I could somewhat enjoy, minus the obvious head scratchers. Like burning through that perfectly good actress who finally had a job again after Battlestar Galactica... for pretty much nothing at all. I mean, if you have a crew member die, at least make it somehow profound or meaningful. This was just the dumbest possible way to get rid of the captain's love interest. Can I assume someone else has to step into that role now?

  • Pretty sure CMDR Landry wasn't Lorca's love interest, considering how the most he had to give over her death was a pep talk.

    Not sure what the point of her was beyond providing a Worf moment (Define as a badass so that the viewer knows it's serious when they get taken out) and a weak one. We knew Ripper was bad mojo from the last episode.

    Maybe, possibly, the point was Lorca's a bad guy. Landry being willing to act in the manner that got her killed, and her close relationship with Lorca reflects on Lorca, going forward.

    As far as not being cruel to animals, I think that was kind of the point. They sort of went out of their way to underline it. Despite seeming to make nice with the tardigrade, Burnham was taking a Vulcan approach to it. They hammered that home by having Saru zing her with fitting in with Lorca (and having her give him the excuse in the first place). Possibly Stamets would have been more empathetic, but they put in solid screen time to underline that he was under pressure to make the drive work, and he was invested in making it work.

    So no one considered how Ripper would feel about the whole thing until the needles went in, at which point it started to bother Burnham. Then they cap it with Georgiou's message to look out for those in your care. So, probably the point. Put the war effort and a bunch of small children's lives on the line with a ticking clock so no one thinks about whether the vicious animal-thing will be harmed until it's already happened, then put the button on it by having the lead's dead mom tell her she should have been thinking about that all along.

  • prixatprixat Posts: 1,486

    Is that foreshadowing the series ending?

    Another act of mutiny as burnham frees the creature and deprives the federation of the spore drive?

  • The way the spore drive works is the reason why it never shows up in a later time line show. When it's discovered what Lorca has done it's considered so abhorrent to everything Starfleet stands for that it's completely and utterly wiped out... Or maybe it isn't as it would kind of explain how section 31 get everywhere without being noticed in later series.
  • I haven't had the means to watch the series, so this is an outside comment - surely a security officer named Tasha was bound from the outset to be a goner?

  • prixat said:

    Is that foreshadowing the series ending?

    Another act of mutiny as burnham frees the creature and deprives the federation of the spore drive?

    I'd guess not.

    Maybe wrong, but next episode brings back Saru's "Not going to let my captain die like you did yours" vs. Burnham's "I don't think the creature can survive much more."

    If we presume Joseph Campbell, then Burnham's arc is about doing things the Starfleet way. The "Call" was to stand up for the princples of the UFP and many times the call is refused twice before being answered. In this case, one can posit she refused when she mutinied, and again when she tossed her own plan because the guy she knew she needed to take alive stabbed her mom. (And for serious, why is 22nd centry medicine so bad?  They can mend a skull fracture on the fly, but there was no way to save Georgiou or T'kuvma or Landry from various holes (I will allow, there were a lot of holes in CMDR Landry)?  I don't think this is any worse than any other Star trek, mind. It's a running problem I've had with the universe.) Anyway, when the hero finally accepts the call, they usually have no idea what they have actually commited to. In Burnham's case, one can posit that being asked to help end the war was finally accepting the call to do better. But, since she didn't understand what doing better meant, the conflict now is learning the meaning. 

    One way of developing this kind of thing (that is, making it hard for the character to get from ignorance to knowledge) is by having their mentor figures act in ways that conflict with the easy path. Burnham's path seems to begin with treating Ripper better, and Saru has been her moral yard stick (not compass. She doesn't measure up). So having his priorities about protecting Lorca (despite clearly not liking him) conflict with the obvious right thing is a way of increasing the tension. I'm not sure we can go five (4 perhaps) more episodes of "this is killing Ripper" to climax on mutiny 2. 

    Not to say that mutiny 2 isn't where this is going. I just don't see this as signaling it. It's an option. Burnham wants to be a Starfleet officer, and having to choose between that and what is right is a solid moral conflict. But I have doubts because, all things being equal, there's no path to any redemption beyond personal, here. She's got no rank. She's basically switched from regular prison to mobile combat prison. Lorca didn't offer her official redemption, just personal.

    As a guess (a wild one) the next phase is that Ripper is intelligent. Burnham is typically Vulcan. A jack of all sciences. They've yet to give a story reason that demands she be a master of any. But she is both jack of all and master of one. Xenoantropology. Study of alien cultures. They have made a point of calling this out twice. Maybe it's pure color, but I suspect Chekhov's Gun applies.

  • brainmuffinbrainmuffin Posts: 1,036

    Reboot Trek has been horrible since the first movie.

  • TangoAlphaTangoAlpha Posts: 4,579

    Fell asleep during the last one, so no idea what happened. Woke up to see mask-disabled Klingons in their psychadellic spaceship, went "ugh!" and turned it off.

  • GoneGone Posts: 829

    Am I the only one who noticed that the Vulcans speak English as their native language?

    How else do you explain the fact that we need to have translated sub-titles for the Klingons - but when a human hating Vulcan is alone with Sarek he's speaking English?

  • anikadanikad Posts: 1,919
    RawArt said:

    I hated Voyager, but liked Enterprise, but hated Archer. It was always a good episode for me when he wasn't featured too much. Enterprise had a lot of flaws but could also be a lot of fun. I think Discovery is a lot better than Enterprise. It seems to be improving with each episode.

  • RawArtRawArt Posts: 5,357
    anikad said:
    RawArt said:

    I hated Voyager, but liked Enterprise, but hated Archer. It was always a good episode for me when he wasn't featured too much. Enterprise had a lot of flaws but could also be a lot of fun. I think Discovery is a lot better than Enterprise. It seems to be improving with each episode.

    The trouble I had with enterprise was that every episode revolved around having a new excuse to have someone partially naked........skin is great, specially among a good looking cast ....but every episode is just lazy writing if that is what it takes to keep people watching LOL

  • ghastlycomicghastlycomic Posts: 2,528
    Butch said:

     

    One major bugbear for me, Pickard spoke in his native british accent, why can't Lorca? 

     

    The actor said in an interview that he didn't want to use his british accent because he felt American audiences would associate that accent to much with Piccard and he didn't want any confusion between the two characters as far as their personalities go.

  • I don't mind updating the visuals. But having tech that is established as not existing at that time is just spitting in the face of fans. Imagine reading a book and the clever ending is all because they rearranged the timeline and everything that came before the last chapter. Ummm.... yeah, that doesn't impress me much. But that's not what is troubling about the show. They basically just called it Trek because there was already this established universe. But they've redefined everything in it. The Klingons no longer look or act Klingon. The Vulcans no longer adhere to logic, but are very emotional and make no attempt to control said emotions. They are rather prone to violence and kung fu fighting. The writers basically decided to just make stuff up as they go. Mark my words, the Ferrengi, Borg and the Jem'Hadar will all make an appearance.

     

  • GatorGator Posts: 1,161

    I stopped reading the thread because of too many spoilers.  (I wish we had spoiler tags here).

    I was finally able to watch the second episode.  Argh.  I want to like it, but the writing is terrible.  Who greenlighted the script?  It's like they must of had an audition for the worst one.  There are probably 100's if not 1000's of better fan written scripts out there.  In addition to the poor writing, it's like the writers don't care about Star Trek at all.  They're just using it as a vehicle to sell a sci-fi show.  Also pointed out a lot of times the Klingons and the inconsistencies in the tech.

    I've watched a few more episodes of The Orville, and The Orville feels more like Star Trek than Star Trek.  frown

  • Singular BluesSingular Blues Posts: 735
    edited October 2017
    Gone said:

    Am I the only one who noticed that the Vulcans speak English as their native language?

    How else do you explain the fact that we need to have translated sub-titles for the Klingons - but when a human hating Vulcan is alone with Sarek he's speaking English?

    The likely reason for this is rather more simple.

    Vulcan isn't a language, or even a proto-language. Klingon is.

    There you go.

    While a lot of both languages, to the extent they exist, have had fans support their development, Klingon has also been, basically, officially supported by various productions. The language is complete enoough to allow for dialog to be rapidly translated, for the most part (Of note, some General Chang's Shakespear did require specific on production inventions because Klingon didn't actually have those constructions at the time. So it's not that all the work has been taken out of inventing language. Just most of it). This doesn't come for free. Having all of the aliens speak well realized alien languages would cost money. I don't know how many linguists are deeply into inventing languages, but I'm betting it's not as many as it would take to get one for a steal.

    I like Non-American films, so I've no issue reading subtitles. Beyond that, I don't feel like having the Klingons speaking all that Klingon adds or takes away from the show. But I'm happy enough that they limited it to one race. First, from a thematic POV it reminds the viewer of the idea of Klignon as outsider. It creates an expectation of insider status for our young vulcan extremist, and thus what he does next is less expected. If every race spoke its own language at all times applicable, the special position of the Klingons is removed. Second, I'd rather they spen their funds on the things they clearly spent them on. In that sense, I'd have rather they not spent money on all this alein language at all, but like I said, it doesn't bug me, so meh. One is fine. Bunches, not so much.

    With universal translators, what language we hear vs what language is spoken is no issue. We have one scene that strongly suggests that the UT is working just fine while one side speaks English and the other Klingon. Which underlines the idea that T'Kuvma was actually speaking English, when we heard him that way. Similarly, when L'Rell speaks English, it implied that she's actually speaking English. Both sides have UTs based on that scene I'm not specifically calling out due to complaints vis a vis spoilers. So, there's no reason for those scenes not be in Klingon. More over, (and this is a reach, I admit, based on limited info) it implies that Kol either can't or refuses to speak English. Which at least says something about his character.

    Post edited by Singular Blues on
  • GoneGone Posts: 829

    I guess you mised the sarcasm in my post.

    I don't disagree with your assertion of Hollywood's use of language to define "otherness", but I have to point out that Vulcan is as realized a language as Klingon. According to the information I've found, the available Klingon dictionaries have approx 1,700 words. The available Vulcan dictionaries have over 12,000 words.

    If they wanted to, they could easily do for Vulcan what they have done for Klingon. I'm sure the fans would love it.(sarcasm) :)

     

  • ButchButch Posts: 795
    edited October 2017
    Butch said:

     

    One major bugbear for me, Pickard spoke in his native british accent, why can't Lorca? 

     

    The actor said in an interview that he didn't want to use his british accent because he felt American audiences would associate that accent to much with Piccard and he didn't want any confusion between the two characters as far as their personalities go.

    So, they think american audiences can't tell the difference between two different actors?  The actors look different, sound different and are in different tv shows.

    Post edited by Butch on
  • I won't buy any subscriptions, especially not to a media entertainment conglomerate.  So the paywall is a no-go for me.  Besides, I still haven't seen more than a half-dozen episodes of DS9 and Voyager combined.

    And I still haven't forgiven Star Trek for Enterprise's reneging on "In a Mirror, Darkly (Part 3)".  To me, that was a great sin, make two parts of a 3 part story arc, then stop?  That's like leaving out the third Tolkien book, or the third Avatar: The Last Airbender book, the third book in Anne McCaffrey's Dragonrider series, omitting Return of the Jedi, or the third Matrix movie.  Okay, that last one probably could have been omitted, along with the second one, and nobody would care...but that's another topic entirely.  wink

  • wsterdanwsterdan Posts: 1,716
    Butch said:
    Butch said:

     

    One major bugbear for me, Pickard spoke in his native british accent, why can't Lorca? 

     

    The actor said in an interview that he didn't want to use his british accent because he felt American audiences would associate that accent to much with Piccard and he didn't want any confusion between the two characters as far as their personalities go.

    So, they think american audiences can't tell the difference between two different actors?  The actors look different, sound different and are in different tv shows.

    I think he means it’s more that it might seem like the second actor might appear to be trying to be a second-rate Picard and is trying to distance himself from that.

    — Walt Sterdan

  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 1,813

    I enjoyed this last episode, which was nice for a change. 

    The theory that Ash Tyler is Voq in human disguise has some merit. It would explain the thick, heavy Klingon make-up. It obliterates the actor's features, at the expense of allowing them to emote, but if the same actor is playing Voq and Tyler it would be needed to keep the audience from recognizing him. 

  • BobvanBobvan Posts: 2,612
    edited October 2017

    Sarek Gotham's Theo Galavan..Discovered him in 24.... Jury's still out on this one. I always liked Jason Issacs. Enjoyed brotherhood way back..

    Post edited by Bobvan on
  • Gone said:

    I guess you mised the sarcasm in my post.

    I don't disagree with your assertion of Hollywood's use of language to define "otherness", but I have to point out that Vulcan is as realized a language as Klingon. According to the information I've found, the available Klingon dictionaries have approx 1,700 words. The available Vulcan dictionaries have over 12,000 words.

    If they wanted to, they could easily do for Vulcan what they have done for Klingon. I'm sure the fans would love it.(sarcasm) :)

     

    I think you give them too much credit for ability to do things you want them to. It's all "easily" when you ignore the costs involved.

    CBS owns Klingon. The details of it all, I don't know but I do know that the ownership came out of stuff that happened many many moons ago. Given the facts that we've only seen an extended dialog in Vulcan once (Star Trek II), and the size of the Vulcan language you report, I suspect that the Vulcan language you would have them employ is fairly heavily encumbered in the sense of how owns the work. That is to say, Joe Bag'oDonut may have invented dozens, hundreds of those words and not safely copylefted them.

    Which returns me to my earlier point. Yes, they had nearly 100 million bucks to make the show, but I am glad more of wasn't spent on hollywood lawyers for attempting to secure right of use against future lawsuits when some wag who feels they own (and might actually) the chunks of the made up language that made up a scant few minutes of this episode.

    Like I said, I neither agree nor disagree with the choice to make Klingon a big deal, here. I know treating every alien race that way would be shooting themselves in the foot. Using Klingon this way is essentially low hanging fruit from a cost perspective. 

    But if they did Vuclan, what happens when they (inevitably) finally go to Saru's homeworld? Or build if they build a story on the internal politics of any of 100s of other aliens in the canon (or that they add to the canon)?

    It's an extremely poor investment to avoid ruffling the few who really care that they lavished that much effort on the Klingons. It's a lot of cost and a lot off effort to go to, and every person like you who is mollified, there will be another person all capping that they don't like reading TV.  Not to mention that many people who would pick this point to be their nit, would just pick something else. You can't please all of the people all of the time. You can say they have decent reasons, both practical and story based, that allow them to be less than consistent with their treatment of alien language.

    I mean, while I (and based on popularity rankings, millions of others) really enjoyed Darmok, and I found the basic idea clever, it actually doesn't make a lot of sense that the UT could make sense enough of the Tamarian language to render it in perfect English without conveying any of the meaning. Star Trek has never let good sense stand in the way of a good story. Or a bad one for that matter (I'm looking at you, conscious in the matter stream, Barkclay).

    (It also doesn't make a lot of sense that many characters in the Lord of the Rings speak English at times, and Tolkien languages at others. NBD.)

    If you think sarcasm translates effectively across the internet, you must be new here. There's nothing more lame than the "You fail at reading my mind," attack, and yet it will never die. This is why humanity can't have nice things. I'll leave it as an excersize for the reader as to whether I'm being sarcastic.

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