OT: Star Trek Discovery

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  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,911

    TOS was a bit incoherent, because people didn't generally world build vigorously. So you got a lot of after the fact glue and tape.

    UFP was somewhat socialist utopian... but you had miners trying to make money.

    My issue with continuity is simply that it's part of the package when working with a setting. Do Star Trek or do something else.

    It's like making a BMW that looks like a Porsche and selling it as a Porsche. Or something.

     

  • kaotkblisskaotkbliss Posts: 2,914

    What I can't stand is the inconsistancies. Why would tech be more advanced in the past? How is it possible that the Federation had no knowledge of a species but then somehow knew about them 30-40 years previously?

    It's why I couldn't watch Enterprise and it's why I won't watch Discovery.

    Discovery probably would have worked better further in the future

  • RawArtRawArt Posts: 5,810

    Thats where getting hung up on the timeline gets in the way of really enjoying a thing.

    Dumbing down tech to match a 50 year old series would be painful to watch nowadays

     

  • kaotkblisskaotkbliss Posts: 2,914
    edited October 2017
    RawArt said:

    Thats where getting hung up on the timeline gets in the way of really enjoying a thing.

    Dumbing down tech to match a 50 year old series would be painful to watch nowadays

     

    How so? The special effects and sets and props can be amazing looking and up-to-date, just don't have them able to "do more" than they should be able to

    It's those things that actually pull me out of a story faster than anything, It's why I had to stop watching Hurcles and Xena way back when as well. All the 20th century slang they kept throwing in disconnected me from emmersion.

     

    *edit to add*

    A great example would be a number of cell phones from the late 90's into the early 2000s look (to me) a lot nicer/fancier than the giant blocks people carry with them now, but they actually did a lot less.

    Post edited by kaotkbliss on
  • dragotxdragotx Posts: 1,135

    What I can't stand is the inconsistancies. Why would tech be more advanced in the past? How is it possible that the Federation had no knowledge of a species but then somehow knew about them 30-40 years previously?

    It's why I couldn't watch Enterprise and it's why I won't watch Discovery.

    Discovery probably would have worked better further in the future

    Personally, I'm glad they are updating the aesthetic to keep up with modern technology. TOS was great, and groundbreaking, but visually it has not aged well at all. If they went back to everything being an analog toggle, to me, it would be very jarring and I'd have a hard time suspending my disbelief. When TOS was first made, touchscreens really hadn't even been thought of hypothetically yet, the analog controls on the show were fairly advanced for the tech of the time. But for people used to all of the digital technology we have now, it makes no sense for them to be using the old analogs anywhere but as an emergency cutoff switch.

  • kaotkblisskaotkbliss Posts: 2,914

    I just watched a couple minutes of the first episode on youtube and a couple things they did right and go along with what I am failing to say

    Tech can be not as advanced as well as not look like it was a prop from the 60's

    The rifle what's-her-name used, didn't look all sleek and fancy, it looked like something that would have come between what we know now and what we know from TNG

    Also the handheld communicator, while not much changed from TOS, it didn't look like it was made in the 60's

  • dragotxdragotx Posts: 1,135

    I just watched a couple minutes of the first episode on youtube and a couple things they did right and go along with what I am failing to say

    Tech can be not as advanced as well as not look like it was a prop from the 60's

    The rifle what's-her-name used, didn't look all sleek and fancy, it looked like something that would have come between what we know now and what we know from TNG

    Also the handheld communicator, while not much changed from TOS, it didn't look like it was made in the 60's

    If that's the way they are going, then I'm ok with that.  Most of the ones I've seen complaining about the look of the tech seem to want it to have stayed with the cardboard set pieces and toggle switches from the paleolithic.  I agree it shouldn't look more advanced than Voyager/TNG, but it also shouldn't be LESS advanced than we are now.

  • GoneGone Posts: 833

    As I see it, the problem is that CBS billed the show as a prequel to TOS.

    If they had called it what it is - a reboot based loosely on the prime time line - then people could love or hate it for what it is a stop being so hung up on the nit picking.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,911

    They're trying to have all the benefits of an established setting with a huge active fanbase while not having to do any work to design within that setting.

    Which might work but adding in the streaming stuff and it's such a recipe for failure.

    My concern is that media executives tend to look for blame anywhere but at home 

  • MJ007MJ007 Posts: 1,679
    edited October 2017

    I havent gone thru the entire thread, so i apologize if this has been asked and answered already... but has there been any info released as to why Discovery was set in between Enterprise and ToS?  The tech definitely doesnt seem to lend itself to that. 

    Also, did u guys notice the Tribble on the Captain's desk?  Nice lil nod to ToS.

    -MJ

    Post edited by MJ007 on
  • RawArtRawArt Posts: 5,810
    MJ007 said:


    Also, did u guys notice the Tribble on the Captain's desk?  Nice lil nod to ToS.

    -MJ

    The Captain had quite a collection of alien bodies/skeletons.....I am sure the races they belong to might not dig it....so maybe there is a darker side to him coming.

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,789

    Just saw episode 3 I am intrigued enough to keep watching 
    I like this show ..love the asthetic !!!
    .
    I am a sci-fi geek
     with a tase for VFX eye candy and right now there is no Decent space based sci fi
    on until "The expanse" returns in 2018.

    "Which might work but adding in the streaming stuff
     and it's such a recipe for failure."

     Welcome to the future.

     This , like any show, will  live or die by its merits and ability to hold an audience.
     CBS is just looking to the inevitable future where the online 
    media market supplants the old cable/broadcast appoinment tv model.

    There have been many Wildly successful series and feature films
    that required online access  points such as netflix.

    Smart phone owners are now the numerical majority in the US
    Here in the New York tri state area,they even give free smarphone & Data plans to SSI and
     food stamp recipients because  many  Government services now prefer the internet as the first point of contact to save 
    personnel costs.

    Low level minmum wage, bus boy jobs at IHOP require an online profile
    and only hire through online Vetting services.

    Technology luddites need not apply
     
    And I dont imagine I need even mention the trend in 3DCC software( Daz connect )

    There is only a matter of time before broadband access becomes as ubiquitous 
    in modern cities as running water.
    CBS/Paramount is not making some risky radical departure from the norm
    they are only acknowledging the reality  of the  future of content distribution.

     

  • MJ007MJ007 Posts: 1,679
    RawArt said:
    MJ007 said:


    Also, did u guys notice the Tribble on the Captain's desk?  Nice lil nod to ToS.

    -MJ

    The Captain had quite a collection of alien bodies/skeletons.....I am sure the races they belong to might not dig it....so maybe there is a darker side to him coming.

    Absolutely.  Definitely NOT the typical Star Fleet Captain we're accustomed to.

    -MJ

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,789

    "The Captain had quite a collection of alien bodies/skeletons....
    .I am sure the races they belong to might not dig it....so maybe there is a darker side to him coming."

     

    Also I noticed some Expanse
    season 2 ,Alumni actors playing the two male prisoners
    on the shuttle.
    Nice to have another sci fi show keeping those actors employed.smiley

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,911

    I'm not a Luddite and I understand that streaming is the future. Cool.

    But from a strategic business point of view, trying to launch a streaming service in a very crowded market with a chancy proposition is not wise.

  • TraceSLTraceSL Posts: 519
    RawArt said:

    Thats where getting hung up on the timeline gets in the way of really enjoying a thing.

    Dumbing down tech to match a 50 year old series would be painful to watch nowadays

     

    I don't think they need to dumb down the tech (visuals), they just have to be constant with what was present within the timeline.

  • Singular BluesSingular Blues Posts: 737
    edited October 2017

    Nothing done successfully is wise.

    Anything "obvious" wasn't obvious until that first guy did what wisdom said don't do, and it turned out that it was a thing.

    And for each girl who does the "obvious" thing and wins, there are 10, 100, 1000, 10,000 people, depending one where the event happend in histor, who tried and failed, or tried and died.

    People complicate this. They say, "but you can look at the trends, and put two and two together and figure out what the next move is." But that is a risk. Time and energy go into gaining the understanding to do that analysis, and to collect the data and do that work, and it can all crap out spectacularly. 

    Hulu and other services took a risk. Most died. Most failed. Netflix stands. Hulu remains. Amazon Prime gives Amazon another way to pad or loss lead the bottom line, and a deal one shipping. It could have been netflix that fell, and Prime could be the king (Prime used to be 90 bucks a year when Netflix was 15 bucks a month, or 120 a year. Prime was potentially a better deal. But being a yearly payment  and not Amazon's key business--what is their key business anymore--meant netflix gives a a better selection and more bitesize cost, which usually wins. But it could have gone the other way).

    In the future, All Access will be judged to have worked or have failed. Discovery will be judged. This is good. 

    Why? Because it will be known. VOD is probably the ultimate future. The very model CBS lives by is dying, and ultimately they (and everyone else) are trying to figure how to replace it.  Had they done nothing, History would say both that CBS wasted a grand opportunity by not exploiting their most recognizable IP to build a new model, and that they were wise to withold that IP.

    Discovery will also be judged both ways, but it will have one definite thing over the universe in which CBS did nothing. It will have happened. There will be, like Star Wars episodes I, II, and II, a bottom line that is either black or red. and if it is black, then the howls of those fans who only love what came before won't stop them cashing checks.

    I picked the SW prequels because they actually suck. Which is impressive, given the effort that went into them. I've had a lot thought into why they suck and it's two things and only two. A) Episode I was a narrative mess. It didn't have the focus to kick start a story. It rests on your understanding of Episodes IV plus. B) Anikin is not cool. He has his moments, but he comes of mildly petulant, rather than antihero.

    I also picked them because they don't suck. For the people who did not have a film called Star Wars (no subtitle) in their mind scape, they whole thing works. In short, the various Arcs of SW start with context.

    The time between SW and the prequels is far less than the time between ST and Discovery. Hell, it's far less for some like me who was weened on pre TMP reruns but did not exist when TOS orignally ran. But in that time a whole generation was able to make the Prequels live without the belssing of thos who felt that SW was their thing.

    ST has that same kind of fandom, though possibly worse. I mean, I don't know of SW fans who have an alternate Star Wars universe just so they can have a more militarized Star Fleet, as opposed to Starfleet. (different trade marks, there).

    I now see I should have been more cautious in making predictions because I figured that the Trek fan base was more dominated by old schoolers wedded to the 1970s than it was a new generation. But All Access's results say it is not so. That doesn't mean Discovery has succeeded. I don't even know that it has convinced me. But it has reminded me that I've jst about aged out of the prime demographic CBS's bottom line is after, and anyone old enough to have watched and understood (even barely) TOS in first run is beyond the prime demographic. Soon that demographic's core, the hump in the normal distribution will be made up of people who have never lived in a world without easy access to the Internet.

    I suspect Discovery earned my attention in Episode 2, if I'm honest. But it's got there certainly by now. I actually find it interesting that I'm ambivalent and uncomfortably interested in a show that wants to raise ambivalent and uncomfortable ideas. It suggests they've got me right they want me.

    USS Discovery is still butt ugly. But, I allow, she's not as ugly as she could have been. This is how it starts.

    Will Discovery rise to the level of TNG or fall to the level of STV (which has has in commond a semi-sibling spock never mentioned, though given Burnham's distinction as the first mutineer in Starfleet, retconned, it's not much of surprise that the famously chatty and open Spock who was totally not surprising his closest friends with thing like his basic physiology, not to mention bits about his past --pretend that was in sarcasm font--never mentioned his retconned step sister. In fact, she's been kinda neatly added to the canon in a kind of unimpeachable way) as another effort everyone would rather pretend never happened?  6 more episodes a I'll definitely have an opinion.

    Post edited by Singular Blues on
  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,789
    edited October 2017

    "But from a strategic business point of view, trying to 
    launch a streaming service in a very
     crowded market with a chancy proposition is not wise."

    Not calling you a luddite I was specifically thinking of
    people I personally know, who think they are going stay unsulated from technology
    by seeking low level mundane jobs like busboys at a restraunt chain. 

    The market for all forms of entertainment is "crowded"
    music,movies,TV shows.

    "Houses of cards" and other famously streamed netflix shows,
    entered an already crowded market and had to survive on its merits
    from a strategic business point of view its all a matter of how well the property is marketed 
    and received.

    Frankly IMHO Discovery does not have alot of serious competition in the Sci fi genre right now
    unless you count this  lame ,unfunny "Orville" who's writers  can not  even decide if the super strong alien female should have eyebrows or not from ep1 to ep2.cool

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    Post edited by wolf359 on
  • JamesJABJamesJAB Posts: 1,760

    There are things about a Sci-fi series set in our future that need to be taken into consideration when judging it onver a 50 year run...

    1. Consumer technology today is more advanced that what is shown on screen in TOS, and most of the tech from TNG and DS9.
    2. Historical events from TOS (that where in the viewer's future) have already started passing
    3. To keep the series entertaining and enjoyable to watch it needs to feel like the future for the current audience. 

    TOS Tech that woiuld not work in a series released today.

    • Un-labeled gumball buttons with zero meaningful information on dummy screens.
    • Non-digital Reports tablet  for captain to sign off on.  (Seriously how lame would that be in a sci-fi series with how advanced tablets currently are)
    • Traditional television/flat panel dsiplays. (I am perfectly fine with the holographic display, as it is currently upcoming tech)
    • Medical equipment with zero visual feedback (screens with relevent nfo)

    A lot of the things that would not work in a "retro series" now days has to do with how visualy oriented out lives and technology have become since the digital age began.  You can't just expect the audience to be OK with assuming the computer is doing something baecasue it responded with "working.... working..... wourking....."  Or captain orders the ship to change heading, then the camera leans to the left to simulate the movement.... nope, now you need to cut to an exterior shot showing the ship changing heading.  
    Even though I'm not a big fan of the exterior look of the Discovery, I will admit that it's a well done ship and captures that retro vibe successfully.  The traditional style phasers are a nice touch too (though the purist will probably be quick to point out the pistols in "The Cage" that Pike's crew used).

     

    Now that that's done.  I am enjoying both the Oville and Discovery, and I hope both shows get good long runs.  It is nice to have sci-fi shows to watch again.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,911

    I thought BSG had a cute premise for more retro tech; less vulnerable to Cylons.

     

  • ghastlycomicghastlycomic Posts: 2,528

    Why are people nit-picking over things compared to older era shows?...that just drains the fun out of anything.

     

    Are you kidding? Nit-picking over things on Star Trek has always been half the fun. There are even a series of books dedicated to exactly that.

  • ghastlycomicghastlycomic Posts: 2,528
    Gone said:

    As I see it, the problem is that CBS billed the show as a prequel to TOS.

    If they had called it what it is - a reboot based loosely on the prime time line - then people could love or hate it for what it is a stop being so hung up on the nit picking.

    They could have even saved it if they set it as a sequel set 125 years post TNG. But no, everyone wants to remake Trek in their image and erase any Trek done before it. It's ego that made it a prequel.

  • TraceSLTraceSL Posts: 519

    most of the dislike is dealing with CBS ALL ACCESS but...

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  • TraceSLTraceSL Posts: 519
    wolf359 said:

     

    Frankly IMHO Discovery does not have alot of serious competition in the Sci fi genre right now
    unless you count this  lame ,unfunny "Orville" who's writers  can not  even decide if the super strong alien female should have eyebrows or not from ep1 to ep2.cool

    That was the 'pilot' which is sort of a promo for the show before it was picked up.  ST:TOS had one too, The Cage. 

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,789
    edited October 2017

    "Consumer technology today is more advanced 
    that what is shown on screen in TOS, 
    and most of the tech from TNG and DS9."

    I recently watched the entire run of DS9 on 
    a classic TV channel here in theNew york tri state area.

    I was struck at how Wrong DS9 got the whole Data storage
    prediction when I see DS9 Characters with an utterly ridiculous stack of seven tablets needed
    to hold an amount of Data that would easily fit  onto my old first
    generation kindle fire from amazon.

    Post edited by wolf359 on
  • dragotxdragotx Posts: 1,135

    I thought BSG had a cute premise for more retro tech; less vulnerable to Cylons.

     

    That was probably the absolute best way to handle the retro tech, it specifically was antique and grossly outdated even by the standards of the people in the show.  Galactica was actually being turned into a museum because of how old she was, and that's what saved them from the Cylons.  It was a perfect way to have the older tech in the show

  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 2,281
    edited October 2017
    JamesJAB said:

    There are things about a Sci-fi series set in our future that need to be taken into consideration when judging it onver a 50 year run...

    1. Consumer technology today is more advanced that what is shown on screen in TOS, and most of the tech from TNG and DS9.
    2. Historical events from TOS (that where in the viewer's future) have already started passing
    3. To keep the series entertaining and enjoyable to watch it needs to feel like the future for the current audience. 

    TOS Tech that woiuld not work in a series released today.

    • Un-labeled gumball buttons with zero meaningful information on dummy screens.
    • Non-digital Reports tablet  for captain to sign off on.  (Seriously how lame would that be in a sci-fi series with how advanced tablets currently are)
    • Traditional television/flat panel dsiplays. (I am perfectly fine with the holographic display, as it is currently upcoming tech)
    • Medical equipment with zero visual feedback (screens with relevent nfo)

    A lot of the things that would not work in a "retro series" now days has to do with how visualy oriented out lives and technology have become since the digital age began.  You can't just expect the audience to be OK with assuming the computer is doing something baecasue it responded with "working.... working..... wourking....."  Or captain orders the ship to change heading, then the camera leans to the left to simulate the movement.... nope, now you need to cut to an exterior shot showing the ship changing heading.  
    Even though I'm not a big fan of the exterior look of the Discovery, I will admit that it's a well done ship and captures that retro vibe successfully.  The traditional style phasers are a nice touch too (though the purist will probably be quick to point out the pistols in "The Cage" that Pike's crew used).

     

    Now that that's done.  I am enjoying both the Oville and Discovery, and I hope both shows get good long runs.  It is nice to have sci-fi shows to watch again.

    I agree with your points about things needing to look futuristic to us now vs the 60's, but I don't get the impression they bothered trying to make any of the established Cage era aesthics and make them look modern. I think they have just redesigned everything with a few design elements referenced.

    Post edited by Timbales on
  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    edited October 2017
    TraceSL said:

    most of the dislike is dealing with CBS ALL ACCESS but...

    The strong disconnect between critics and audience is magnificent.

    Post edited by agent unawares on
  • SpottedKittySpottedKitty Posts: 7,232
    Timbales said:
    I agree with your points about things needing to look futuristic to us now vs the 60's, but I don't get the impression they bothered trying to make any of the established Cage era aesthics and make them look modern. I think they have just redesigned everything with a few design elements referenced.

    <nod> Remember, there's been three TV episodes where TOS tech and locations have been recreated for more modern scene construction and SFX capabilities; the Enterprise episode where USS Defiant was dragged into the Mirror Universe; the ST:TNG episode where a newly rescued Scotty asks the holodeck to give him the Enterprise bridge, "no bloody A, B, C or D"; and the tribble episode <squeek> of ST:DS9. All of them were faithful recreations, all of them worked in the context of the episode, and all of them gave me a warm "I'm home" feeling. I don't get that feeling from the bits I've seen of Discovery.

  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 2,281
    Timbales said:
    I agree with your points about things needing to look futuristic to us now vs the 60's, but I don't get the impression they bothered trying to make any of the established Cage era aesthics and make them look modern. I think they have just redesigned everything with a few design elements referenced.

    <nod> Remember, there's been three TV episodes where TOS tech and locations have been recreated for more modern scene construction and SFX capabilities; the Enterprise episode where USS Defiant was dragged into the Mirror Universe; the ST:TNG episode where a newly rescued Scotty asks the holodeck to give him the Enterprise bridge, "no bloody A, B, C or D"; and the tribble episode <squeek> of ST:DS9. All of them were faithful recreations, all of them worked in the context of the episode, and all of them gave me a warm "I'm home" feeling. I don't get that feeling from the bits I've seen of Discovery.

    Those were great authentic recreations. I wouldn't expect that for a new series, but I think there is a happy medium that could have been acheived. 

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