SSS shaders

245

Comments

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,489
    edited December 1969

    Sertorial said:
    Szark said:
    First off SSS is a raytraced function therefore it really does need Raytraced shadows to get the best effect. .

    Hang on. I thought everything used raytracing in the 3D rendering world?

    I thought 3d rendering was basically a mathematical model taking rays of light and making them interact with shapes and surfaces. Isn't that the same as ray tracing?
    Not exactly. Raytracing does exactly what it says on the tin and traces the path of the light from the source to the target, which can include bouncing off objects like mirrors for reflectivity. When it comes to shadows, depth maps trace the contour of an object taken from the light source to simulate where the shadow would fall, while raytracing naturally darkens the area because the light no longer reaches that part of the scene. Raytracing also does a far better job of passing through translucent materials.

    There's a whole raft of information on which one is best for which type of work you're doing, but the basic upshot is that raytracing, while computationally more intensive, is a lot more accurate.

  • SertorialSertorial Posts: 960
    edited April 2013

    Szark said:
    Yes but take a note of bump and displacement maps settings beofre doing so just in case. ;)

    But there is more work to set up the mats using SSS than justing loading and rendering...a lot more.

    This aspect a lot of people have trouble with as there is a lot to learn so the question is are up for a real challenge and it will take a little time to explain all the setttings which also depend on the light rig. Bad lighting and SSS don't mix.

    Hmm... so here is a comparison. On the left is the so-called "simple" surface that comes with the character, in the middle is the SSS surface (both using the DS default shader). On the right is the SSS surface again, but this time I have applied the Ubersurface shader (ctrl-loaded, so as not to replace maps) The lighting is the same in all three cases - a distant light at zero degrees and 50% with a specular only spot at 45 degrees left.

    Both middle and right (ie the fancy, schmancy SSS surface) look a bit odd. Why is that?

    If I compare the two surfaces, the only difference seems to be that the "simple" surface has specular colour 100& black but the SSS has specular colour 100% white (which is probably why it looks so shiny!) and the "simple" has for its bump map just the same map it uses for the diffuse colour channel, whereas the SSS one has a proper black and white bump map.

    Go figure!

    comparison.jpg
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    Post edited by Sertorial on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,250
    edited December 1969

    SSS with DS Defualt Shader....How? You only get Subsurface scattering with Human Surface (Skin) Shader and Uber Surface/2, in essence Uber shaders only. :)

    Now the far left pic needs a lot of adjusting like specular settings, SSS, Velvet, Bump etc. Like I said it will not be a one click solution and if you want to learn to get good results then be prepared to change one setting and test render, change it back, change another and test etc etc until you understand what each channel does and why.

    Or even better still is to remove the skin maps entirely and just turn off all the channels barring one. For example if you were testing velvet make the velvet colour bright or contrasting, say purple, then when rendered on the grey figure you see the effect (just like this http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/18364/P30/#271094 ) and the adjust one setting at a time and render to see what that setting does, only then will you understand what each channel does.

    Then when you know what each channel does then you can reload the maps and set up the settings for that texture set.

    Just remember that each channel works by itself, independently from each other and together they make the “whole”, understanding each channel will help you get that whole.

    But to be honest there is no way I, or anybody for that matter, can help until we see your surfaces settings there are just so many settings.

  • SertorialSertorial Posts: 960
    edited December 1969

    Szark said:
    SSS with DS Defualt Shader....How? You only get Subsurface scattering with Human Surface (Skin) Shader and Uber Surface/2, in essence Uber shaders only. :)

    As I said higher up this post, the character comes with two folders. One labelled "simple" and the other labeled "SSS" in each folder is a .PZ2 file that loads the surfaces. Presumably in Poser (which the character was actually designed for) one loads a SSS shader and one loads a default shader. Loading it in DAZ however can't call this and so the surfaces load with the DS default shader - I am guessing here... does that sound feasible?


    Now the far left pic needs a lot of adjusting like specular settings, SSS, Velvet, Bump etc.


    eh? the left pic? The DS default shader doesn't have a velvet setting. are you sure you mean the left pic? To me, that looks the most normal of the three. It's the middle and the right one that don't look right (these have the SSS .PZ2 file loaded.
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,250
    edited December 1969

    Loading a Poser SSS mat preset WILL NOT give you SSS in Daz Studio simple as that so yes you are correct it will just load a default surface. Forget Poser SSS in Daz Studio full stop.

    And sorry my head is pretty messed up yes I meant to say right, my dyslexia kicking in again.

  • SertorialSertorial Posts: 960
    edited December 1969

    Szark said:
    Loading a Poser SSS mat preset WILL NOT give you SSS in Daz Studio simple as that so yes you are correct it will just load a default surface. Forget Poser SSS in Daz Studio full stop.

    And sorry my head is pretty messed up yes I meant to say right, my dyslexia kicking in again.

    no probs! Thanks for your help (and patience with all my noob questions)

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,250
    edited December 1969

    I am wanting to help with this but I can't tell what to do with every channel as you have to take your lighting , texture maps and the look you want to achieve in to consideration.

    But I can give a starting point if you want?

  • SertorialSertorial Posts: 960
    edited December 1969

    Szark said:
    I am wanting to help with this but I can't tell what to do with every channel as you have to take your lighting , texture maps and the look you want to achieve in to consideration.

    But I can give a starting point if you want?

    I do understand what you are saying. The UberSurface is a complex shader an will take some time and effort to learn. The idea of trying out a channel at a time is a good one.

    Some pointed to get me started would be helpful tho (I looked at Omnifreaker's you tube video on UberSurface, but it's not very helpful)

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,250
    edited December 1969

    OK give me a few hours (I have a visitior on there way round) and I will get something typed up.

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,250
    edited December 1969

    Diffuse Colour: Leave that for now we can change it later.

    Diffuse Strength drop to 90 – 80%

    Specular: In reality spec colour is always white; it is the surfaces properties that can give the spec colour so I generally use White. Well that is how I understand things. Some vendors use a light blue colour. It is up to you what colour to use.

    Glossiness: About 30 – 40% should make a nice start

    Spec Strength: 8 – 10%

    Spec 2. I still don’t know what or why there is a Spec 2. But this is one of those setting that can only be set up right when you turn off Spec 1 and test the spec 2 only. When you have the desired effects then reengage Spec 1 and test.

    Anisotropic: Not for skin. Metals and Glass etc.

    Ambient: I never use Ambient on Skin...ever.

    Reflection: Some folks use a Reflection with an Environment Map (HDRI) but I have never had much success with this. Given you skin is generally oily having reflection does make realistic sense. If you want to have real (raytraced) reflections at a very low setting expect a longer render.

    Fresnel: Not on Skin but good for Eyes mainly the pupil.

    Velvet: Colour well this is a personal choice but after some testing I found a colour similar to the skin colour best like a peach/brown, 20% strength and about 15% falloff

    SSS

    Colour I always start with a 128, 0, 0 red and adjust up or down if needed. Want more red SSS increase the red and vice versa. However if there is too much red burnt in the skin texture maps then injecting red here will make the skin appear more red. To counteract this drop the red channel in the diffuse colour.

    Strength depends on a few things, like are you using SSS maps then 100% should do it. No SSS maps then 20 – 50 % might do it.

    Refraction: This is a good one as most scientists can’t agree what the IOR of skin is as there are so many variables but a value of 1.39 – 1.41 should do.

    Scale: is how thick the surface is before the SSS takes place. This is something else I need to test and we don’t really know what value this is. If it is the Daz Studio default then 1 = 1CM and our skin is so much thinner than that. I have been trying to find out. IMHO 4 is why too high if this is the case. But with anything like this I say just go with what works. LOL I generally use a value of 1 to 1.70 before someone got me thinking what the value is.

    Group: Is for grouping any surface that has the same SSS properties this is so the render engine knows what SSS properties applies to which surfaces. I use SSS on Teeth and Eye whites which have different SSS settings so I make all the Skin group 0, Teeth group 1, Whites group 2 and so on. If you don’t do this the render engine will lump all SSS together and render the whites and teeth with the same SSS settings as the Skin.

    Translucency: I never use for skin. The SSS should give use what we need.

  • SertorialSertorial Posts: 960
    edited December 1969

    Szark said:
    Diffuse Colour: Leave that for now we can change it later.

    Diffuse Strength drop to 90 – 80%

    Specular: In reality spec colour is always white; it is the surfaces properties that can give the spec colour so I generally use White. Well that is how I understand things. Some vendors use a light blue colour. It is up to you what colour to use.

    Glossiness: About 30 – 40% should make a nice start

    Spec Strength: 8 – 10%

    Spec 2. I still don’t know what or why there is a Spec 2. But this is one of those setting that can only be set up right when you turn off Spec 1 and test the spec 2 only. When you have the desired effects then reengage Spec 1 and test.

    Anisotropic: Not for skin. Metals and Glass etc.

    Ambient: I never use Ambient on Skin...ever.

    Reflection: Some folks use a Reflection with an Environment Map (HDRI) but I have never had much success with this. Given you skin is generally oily having reflection does make realistic sense. If you want to have real (raytraced) reflections at a very low setting expect a longer render.

    Fresnel: Not on Skin but good for Eyes mainly the pupil.

    Velvet: Colour well this is a personal choice but after some testing I found a colour similar to the skin colour best like a peach/brown, 20% strength and about 15% falloff

    SSS

    Colour I always start with a 128, 0, 0 red and adjust up or down if needed. Want more red SSS increase the red and vice versa. However if there is too much red burnt in the skin texture maps then injecting red here will make the skin appear more red. To counteract this drop the red channel in the diffuse colour.

    Strength depends on a few things, like are you using SSS maps then 100% should do it. No SSS maps then 20 – 50 % might do it.

    Refraction: This is a good one as most scientists can’t agree what the IOR of skin is as there are so many variables but a value of 1.39 – 1.41 should do.

    Scale: is how thick the surface is before the SSS takes place. This is something else I need to test and we don’t really know what value this is. If it is the Daz Studio default then 1 = 1CM and our skin is so much thinner than that. I have been trying to find out. IMHO 4 is why too high if this is the case. But with anything like this I say just go with what works. LOL I generally use a value of 1 to 1.70 before someone got me thinking what the value is.

    Group: Is for grouping any surface that has the same SSS properties this is so the render engine knows what SSS properties applies to which surfaces. I use SSS on Teeth and Eye whites which have different SSS settings so I make all the Skin group 0, Teeth group 1, Whites group 2 and so on. If you don’t do this the render engine will lump all SSS together and render the whites and teeth with the same SSS settings as the Skin.

    Translucency: I never use for skin. The SSS should give use what we need.

    Awesome! Thanks. I'll give that a try. Thanks SO much for taking the trouble.

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,250
    edited December 1969

    No worries. I hope helps. :) I just wish I had the time to get the tutorail finished...my life has just gone crazy in the last few weeks with no time to play and frying my brain. LOL

  • SertorialSertorial Posts: 960
    edited April 2013

    Szark said:
    No worries. I hope helps. :) I just wish I had the time to get the tutorail finished...my life has just gone crazy in the last few weeks with no time to play and frying my brain. LOL

    one question. I follow everything apart from the "group" part. I don't see how that works? I ctrl-selected all the skin subgroups of the figure (torso, arms, face etc) and then applied your settings to them all. Why would the render engine apply them to surfaces I havent selected?

    Post edited by Sertorial on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,250
    edited December 1969

    It is how the render engine works. If you don't set different Groups for surfaces that have different SSS settings then 3Delight will treat them all the same so if I apply SSS to the teeth and don't give it a Different Group number then 3Delight will lump the teeth in with the Skin SSS Settings and therefore get some funny looking pink teeth.

    If you only use SSS on the skin then you don't need to worry about this. But like me if you start to use SSS for Teeth and Eye Whites etc then the Group setting come in to Play.

    Does that help? LOL

  • SertorialSertorial Posts: 960
    edited December 1969

    Szark said:
    It is how the render engine works. If you don't set different Groups for surfaces that have different SSS settings then 3Delight will treat them all the same so if I apply SSS to the teeth and don't give it a Different Group number then 3Delight will lump the teeth in with the Skin SSS Settings and therefore get some funny looking pink teeth.

    If you only use SSS on the skin then you don't need to worry about this. But like me if you start to use SSS for Teeth and Eye Whites etc then the Group setting come in to Play.

    Does that help? LOL

    How weird. That doesn't happen with any other channels. Normally you can ctrl-select different bits of the surface and just edit those ones. I wonder why SSS is different? It's only a set of channels after all.

    Maybe that's why her eyes looked totally freaky, even tho I hadn't done anything to them..

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,250
    edited December 1969

    This will only happen if SSS is turned on so if a surface doesn't have SSS ON then it doesn't need a Group. Yes this only happens for this one channel. It is an economy measure

  • SertorialSertorial Posts: 960
    edited December 1969

    Szark said:
    This will only happen if SSS is turned on so if a surface doesn't have SSS ON then it doesn't need a Group. Yes this only happens for this one channel. It is an economy measure

    when you say a surface, are you meaning like a single tab (eg skin hip)?

    I don't think I turned SSS on for her eyes anyway, but I'll check

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,250
    edited December 1969

    Yes sorry that is correct.

    If SSS isn't turned for the Eyes then it will be something else casuing the freakiness. :)

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,489
    edited December 1969

    If that's true, then how does 3DL handle conflicting values? For example, if I have three surfaces each with different SSS values but sharing the same group, which of the three values will be used? I'd always assumed that grouping didn't change the values used but merely changed what it considered as a single surface, so that light could effectively pass into one material zone and exit via another as long as it's part of the same SSS grouping.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 47,683
    edited April 2013

    The Group setting is sued to separate materials that shouldn't interact - the teeth are separate from the skin and no matter how strong the light it shouldn't scatter through the skin and out of the teeth, or vice versa, so they have separate groups. If you have contiguous materials, such as most of the skin surfaces, then they should belong to the same group so that scattering can cross the material boundaries. Generally all materials in a single group will have the same settings, other than maps, but it isn't necessary.

    Post edited by Richard Haseltine on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,250
    edited December 1969

    Thanks Richard you put it so much better than what was in my head. :)

    This really does come in to play when setting up the ears (Head texture not the face) with more SSS (to simulate light shining through the ears) than the other parts of the same skin texture group. Same with Teeth being the Mouth group which includes Gums, Innermouth and Tongue which would have a different SSS Grouping than the Teeth. (But i only do this if the mouth is open. :)

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,489
    edited December 1969

    So, I was on the right track then? I guess I must have picked up something from all that playing around after all :D

  • SertorialSertorial Posts: 960
    edited December 1969

    The Group setting is sued to separate materials that shouldn't interact - the teeth are separate from the skin and no matter how strong the light it shouldn't scatter through the skin and out of the teeth, or vice versa, so they have separate groups. If you have contiguous materials, such as most of the skin surfaces, then they should belong to the same group so that scattering can cross the material boundaries. Generally all materials in a single group will have the same settings, other than maps, but it isn't necessary.

    but why would you need the group thing? I don't understand. You can set the SSS properties at different values just by highlighting that particular surface, surely? Just like you can highlight the arm and give it a different, say, glossiness from the leg? When you select a particular body part it goes orange in the shader window, then you dial up what you want. You can then select a different body part and select a different value?

    Am I missing something here?

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,250
    edited December 1969

    As I said earlier it is the way 3Delight calculates SSS when rendering. Sorry but if you need more understanding then I can't help as we are getting into Geekiness and I don't much Geekiness. LOL But i will go and have a look and see if I can find something that better explains it.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 47,683
    edited December 1969

    Sertorial said:
    The Group setting is sued to separate materials that shouldn't interact - the teeth are separate from the skin and no matter how strong the light it shouldn't scatter through the skin and out of the teeth, or vice versa, so they have separate groups. If you have contiguous materials, such as most of the skin surfaces, then they should belong to the same group so that scattering can cross the material boundaries. Generally all materials in a single group will have the same settings, other than maps, but it isn't necessary.

    but why would you need the group thing? I don't understand. You can set the SSS properties at different values just by highlighting that particular surface, surely? Just like you can highlight the arm and give it a different, say, glossiness from the leg? When you select a particular body part it goes orange in the shader window, then you dial up what you want. You can then select a different body part and select a different value?

    Am I missing something here?

    It's not for different properties - it's for declaring things to be separate, so that light that is scattered by one surface (say the skin of the face) doesn't come out of another (say the teeth or the eyes).

  • SertorialSertorial Posts: 960
    edited December 1969

    Sertorial said:
    The Group setting is sued to separate materials that shouldn't interact - the teeth are separate from the skin and no matter how strong the light it shouldn't scatter through the skin and out of the teeth, or vice versa, so they have separate groups. If you have contiguous materials, such as most of the skin surfaces, then they should belong to the same group so that scattering can cross the material boundaries. Generally all materials in a single group will have the same settings, other than maps, but it isn't necessary.

    but why would you need the group thing? I don't understand. You can set the SSS properties at different values just by highlighting that particular surface, surely? Just like you can highlight the arm and give it a different, say, glossiness from the leg? When you select a particular body part it goes orange in the shader window, then you dial up what you want. You can then select a different body part and select a different value?

    Am I missing something here?

    It's not for different properties - it's for declaring things to be separate, so that light that is scattered by one surface (say the skin of the face) doesn't come out of another (say the teeth or the eyes).

    umm... err... I half understand that. The bit about it not being for different properties at least makes sense (otherwise it would be redundant). But I am not sure I understand your second part (but maybe that's because I dont really understand was SSS is).

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,250
    edited April 2013

    SubSurfaceScattering is when light penetrates the skin and scatters back out, giving us Caucasians a pink appearance. Some light is scattered and some light is absorbed. UberSurface 2 as an added Absorption colour and strength settings included with the SSS channel which Uber Surface and HSS don't have.

    Post edited by Szark on
  • SertorialSertorial Posts: 960
    edited December 1969

    Szark said:
    SubSurfaceScattering is when light penetrates the skin and scatters back out, giving us Caucasians a pink appearance. Some light is scattered and some light is absorbed. UberSurface 2 as an added Absorption colour and strength settings included with the SSS channel which Uber Surface and HSS don't have.

    right. I think I get it now. So the grouping means light will only be scattered into similar type bits of flesh

  • SertorialSertorial Posts: 960
    edited May 2013

    Szark said:
    Diffuse Colour: Leave that for now we can change it later.

    Diffuse Strength drop to 90 – 80%

    Specular: In reality spec colour is always white; it is the surfaces properties that can give the spec colour so I generally use White. Well that is how I understand things. Some vendors use a light blue colour. It is up to you what colour to use.

    Glossiness: About 30 – 40% should make a nice start

    Spec Strength: 8 – 10%

    Spec 2. I still don’t know what or why there is a Spec 2. But this is one of those setting that can only be set up right when you turn off Spec 1 and test the spec 2 only. When you have the desired effects then reengage Spec 1 and test.

    Anisotropic: Not for skin. Metals and Glass etc.

    Ambient: I never use Ambient on Skin...ever.

    Reflection: Some folks use a Reflection with an Environment Map (HDRI) but I have never had much success with this. Given you skin is generally oily having reflection does make realistic sense. If you want to have real (raytraced) reflections at a very low setting expect a longer render.

    Fresnel: Not on Skin but good for Eyes mainly the pupil.

    Velvet: Colour well this is a personal choice but after some testing I found a colour similar to the skin colour best like a peach/brown, 20% strength and about 15% falloff

    SSS

    Colour I always start with a 128, 0, 0 red and adjust up or down if needed. Want more red SSS increase the red and vice versa. However if there is too much red burnt in the skin texture maps then injecting red here will make the skin appear more red. To counteract this drop the red channel in the diffuse colour.

    Strength depends on a few things, like are you using SSS maps then 100% should do it. No SSS maps then 20 – 50 % might do it.

    Refraction: This is a good one as most scientists can’t agree what the IOR of skin is as there are so many variables but a value of 1.39 – 1.41 should do.

    Scale: is how thick the surface is before the SSS takes place. This is something else I need to test and we don’t really know what value this is. If it is the Daz Studio default then 1 = 1CM and our skin is so much thinner than that. I have been trying to find out. IMHO 4 is why too high if this is the case. But with anything like this I say just go with what works. LOL I generally use a value of 1 to 1.70 before someone got me thinking what the value is.

    Group: Is for grouping any surface that has the same SSS properties this is so the render engine knows what SSS properties applies to which surfaces. I use SSS on Teeth and Eye whites which have different SSS settings so I make all the Skin group 0, Teeth group 1, Whites group 2 and so on. If you don’t do this the render engine will lump all SSS together and render the whites and teeth with the same SSS settings as the Skin.

    Translucency: I never use for skin. The SSS should give use what we need.

    Just got around to trying our your great guidelines, above. Here's an example. But I have only applied UberSurface to the skin surfaces. Wasn't sure what to do about her eyes and they look a bit 'flat' by comparison. Do I apply US to those too? If so, what settings should I use? (presumably not the same ones as for skin?)

    test.JPG
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    Post edited by Sertorial on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,250
    edited December 1969

    Sorry I did get a notification of a reply and forgot about it, my bad. I am a tad buyt at the moment...visitors due soon, well there are here now.

    I will try to reply later.

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