ZBrush, Why Bother?

Often on the boards I often see someone say, "Get ZBrush!!!".  I don't understand why.  As I understand it, the daz characters don't have many polys you can export to zbrush and reimport into Daz.  It seems I would be defeated before I begin if I wanted to morph a figure.  Zbrush for morphing a daz character seems like over-kill. All we can ever do is crack a walnut and ZBush is a sledge hammer.  Am I missing something?  Blender is free and has sculpting tools. How about a Go B plugin for when you're cheesy and you know it?

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Comments

  • ebergerlyebergerly Posts: 3,255
    edited July 2017

    It depends on what you need. I tried the ZBrush trial, really wanted to like it, but after a few weeks of very in-depth investigation I decided I would never allow it on my computer ever again. It has the world's worst UI and work flow of any software that has ever been developed since the beginning of time. 

    That being said, it can do some incredible stuff if you need those particular features...

    If you're going to do some very complex sculpting, and I mean VERY complex, ZBrush is amazing. And if you have any need to convert an absolutely horrendous mesh into something that is absolutely gorgeous, ZBrush is a master at that. You can basically take two primitives, push them together, and Zbrush will convert it into a single mesh with GORGEOUS topology. 

    But if you don't need that stuff, and don't want to pay $800 or whatever, there are much better apps out there. As difficult as Blender is, it's nowhere near the difficulty of ZBrush. 

    Just to give you a brief sample of the ZBrush insanity...

    In a 3D modelling application, what do you think a "tool" is? 

    Something that performs a function on an object that you're modelling, right?

    Wrong. A tool is the object you're modelling in ZBrush. 

    Incredible. 

    Post edited by ebergerly on
  • RitaCelesteRitaCeleste Posts: 625

    Thanks I have been on the fense forever about 3d software.  I have decided that until I prove to myself I will actually work with Blender, there is no point drooling over other software.  But here I was pricing Zbrush yet again and pretty sure I could go with academic as making money is something I don't do to well unless mops and toilet brushes are involved.  Still don't make much but I am a cleaning machine!!! That's right, they pay me because it's the law and they have to, not because I'm worth it or something. lol

  • I find zBrush much more usable than either blender or Hexagon, to be honest. What really clinched it for me was the fact that stuff you make within the application can be used as brushes to use when making other content.

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 6,873

    You are going to get different opinions for every 3d app so unless you take the time to look into the ones you are interested in, you wont know if its for you or not.  You need to find some tutorials and such and sit down and play with it to see if it really suits you.  I tried blender first, then hexagon, both with tutorials but neither one really worked for me.  In the end I found Silo and it became the 3D modeler of choice for me.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,711

    it's taken me a few years but I am starting to warm to it.

    esp since I can model a crappy messy mesh in Carrara then take it into Zbrush and use the Zremesher

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,626

    What Matty said.  Try some different things.  I use Blender for morphs, Substance Painter for texturing, Marvelous Designer for cloth drape and Zbrush for normal maps and retopo.

    Zbrush is arguably the best in our industry when it comes to high-poly sculpts.  The uses of high poly sculpts in Daz Studio are:

    1. HD morphs (possible only for published artists with a specially licensed plugin we're issued)

    2. Normal Maps (best way to add surface details in Iray, I'm doing some at around 14 million right now)

    3. Displacement Maps (great in 3Delight, inefficient in Iray)

    Zbrush has many other features, but this and its mesh brush feature (allowing you to add literal mesh bits along a surface, like a row of bolts or a chain, etc.) and its retopology tools are arguably what sets it apart.  People do use it for start-to-finish projects, but you don't need it for that necessarily.

  • I do my low res morphs and geografts in zBrush along with the stuff SickleYield mentioned, and also use Substance Painter for textures, though you can actually do that in zBrush to some extent as well.

  • ebergerlyebergerly Posts: 3,255

    I think ZBrush is one of those cases where if you have to ask if you need it, you probably don't need it. smiley

    It's more for the people who ask "Hey, I'm doing some really heavy complex modelling, maybe on a professional level, and I can't find a modelling/scupting app with enough features, what should I try?"

    I expect for most of us, making objects and morphs and UV'ing in Blender or similar is sufficient, and the only people who would pay $800 for ZBrush's feature set are those who are either very serious or professionals making money off their models. 

  • MistaraMistara Posts: 38,675

    theres a po'man version, think is skulptrix?

    so, turn frown upside down smiley

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 40,514
    ebergerly said:

    It depends on what you need. I tried the ZBrush trial, really wanted to like it, but after a few weeks of very in-depth investigation I decided I would never allow it on my computer ever again. It has the world's worst UI and work flow of any software that has ever been developed since the beginning of time. 

    That being said, it can do some incredible stuff if you need those particular features...

    If you're going to do some very complex sculpting, and I mean VERY complex, ZBrush is amazing. And if you have any need to convert an absolutely horrendous mesh into something that is absolutely gorgeous, ZBrush is a master at that. You can basically take two primitives, push them together, and Zbrush will convert it into a single mesh with GORGEOUS topology. 

    But if you don't need that stuff, and don't want to pay $800 or whatever, there are much better apps out there. As difficult as Blender is, it's nowhere near the difficulty of ZBrush. 

    Just to give you a brief sample of the ZBrush insanity...

    In a 3D modelling application, what do you think a "tool" is? 

    Something that performs a function on an object that you're modelling, right?

    Wrong. A tool is the object you're modelling in ZBrush. 

    Incredible. 

    ..wait, there's something with a more cryptic UI than Blender's?

  • ebergerlyebergerly Posts: 3,255
    kyoto kid said:

    ..wait, there's something with a more cryptic UI than Blender's?

    Go no, right? 

    How about this...

    ZBrush also has a regular polygonal modeller, not just the fancy sculpting stuff. How do you get there to do regular modelling? Well, there's probably a tab that takes you into a different room or something right? 

    No. It's a brush. The polygonal modeller is a brush. 

    Just thinking about it makes my head explode. 

  • RitaCelesteRitaCeleste Posts: 625

    I can't justify it since I am interested in morphs but not a PA so I don't have the ability to HD anything anyway.  I spend a fair bit on morphs but not $400, atleast I don't think I have.....I have almost 2000 things according to the install manager.  I spend a fair bit on shaders and seamless tiles and have filter forge.  I am content to subd it and make or apply a purchased shader to old PC items.  As an end user, I think Blender just makes more sense for me to learn than commercial programs.  Its not even about what is easiest for me anymore.  Its that this is a hobby for me and $400 and $800 programs would be a ton of content from artists who actually know what they are doing...Not maybe my table won't be lopsided....

  • ebergerlyebergerly Posts: 3,255
    edited July 2017

    Oh, and when you import an OBJ, it doesn't actually give you the OBJ to work on. It gives you what's called a 2.5D version of it. Basically an image, not the object itself. You first have to go into Edit mode and then select something else in order for you to actually work on the object. No wait, it's a tool, not an object.

    And if you don't do those two things, it keeps adding images of the object every time you click your mouse. 

    It's insane. 

    Post edited by ebergerly on
  • RitaCelesteRitaCeleste Posts: 625

    I will say the PA's being the only ones with that plugin and the models not being very sculptable without it devalues all the Genesis generations for me in my own mind.  I have lots of G3F stuff and might get some stuff for the male.  I am more interested in Lttlefox's cartoon characters all of a sudden.  It will be a cold day before I invest in another genesis generation the way I did G3F.  I may prefer to be an end user but if I had really understood how low poly G3F was and what that means when I was shopping I am not sure I would have spent as much on stuff for her.  I still like to play with G3F and all but I do see her in a different light now that I know she isn't very sculptable for me with or without Zbrush. It doesn't take away the tons of stuff for her made by artists.  But never the less, it makes me less willing to buy another character like this.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,711
    ebergerly said:

    Oh, and when you import an OBJ, it doesn't actually give you the OBJ to work on. It gives you what's called a 2.5D version of it. Basically an image, not the object itself. You first have to go into Edit mode and then select something else in order for you to actually work on the object. No wait, it's a tool, not an object.

    And if you don't do those two things, it keeps adding images of the object every time you click your mouse. 

    It's insane. 

    ctrl-z cheeky    rinse repeat

     

    first thing you do after importing your tool is click make polymesh3D, draw one and click edit

    then at least you can wildly deform it with the basic brush

     

     

  • RitaCelesteRitaCeleste Posts: 625

    But the morphs I could make with Zbrush would be cruddy morphs.  I think Blender would do to make cruddy morphs with. Its free and I could buy a few morphs, but not $400 worth.  I'll see how flexible G3F is with the morphs I have.  I think instead of making real looking characters, I'll learn to dial it down and work with toon things.  There is market for cute things.  Not that I actually ever make money or anything, but they are so cute.  I went over budget and so I can't buy anything for a bit anyway.  If I save $400 up, I can wait for killer sales and load up.  Sounds like a plan........

  • takezo_3001takezo_3001 Posts: 1,914
    Mistara said:

    theres a po'man version, think is skulptrix?

    so, turn frown upside down smiley

    It's called sculptris, and ZBrush Core for only $150...Plus, Rawart, Mec4D, Zev0 (I'm only guessing) and several other great PAs use ZBrush as well!

  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 13,188

    A great majority of us (PA's) use ZBrush for various things on every pack.

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,276
    edited July 2017

    ZBrush is a pain in the bottom to learn to use, but I'm slowly but surely learning. I've been able to do some pretty decent G8F morphs (at least I think they're cute) in ZBrush. :) Some of them I'm hoping Daz might be interested in:

     

     

    While it would be nice to have access to the HD mesh that PAs get, I don't think it's totally necessary in order to make cute characters and morphs. Though I do hope to become a PA some day. :)

     

    Post edited by 3Diva on
  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 13,188

    ZBrush website has a LOT of fantastic videos teaching you all the ins and outs of the program. They even offer a school for it.

  • JoeQuickJoeQuick Posts: 1,697

    With the exception of some more recent hard surface textures, everything I've ever made was made in zbrush, every piece of clothing, every morph.  

  • dreamfarmerdreamfarmer Posts: 2,128

    Blender is the spawn of nightmares. But I've found ZbrushCore really friendly. Yeah, they call models tools, but whatever. I'm hoping I use it enough that I can justify an upgrade to straight-up Zbrush and get all that retoplogical/UVunwrapping goodness.

    (And meanwhile, I can import models into ZbrushCore, adjust them/create morphs and export them back into Daz again and it's much much much more straightforward than Blender or even Hexagon. Just really intuitive and straightforward.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,626

    But the morphs I could make with Zbrush would be cruddy morphs.  I think Blender would do to make cruddy morphs with. Its free and I could buy a few morphs, but not $400 worth.  I'll see how flexible G3F is with the morphs I have.  I think instead of making real looking characters, I'll learn to dial it down and work with toon things.  There is market for cute things.  Not that I actually ever make money or anything, but they are so cute.  I went over budget and so I can't buy anything for a bit anyway.  If I save $400 up, I can wait for killer sales and load up.  Sounds like a plan........

    Every single one of my successful morph sets (the most successful being Faces of Asia) was made in Blender. ;)  Blender's Proportional Edit tool in Connected mode is a morpher's best friend, and with morph targets (which Blender calls shape keys) you can create multiple morphs on a figure and only dial them back on to export them.

    Here's a tutorial on loading the morph once you've got it made:

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,518

    Blender is the spawn of nightmares. But I've found ZbrushCore really friendly. Yeah, they call models tools, but whatever. I'm hoping I use it enough that I can justify an upgrade to straight-up Zbrush and get all that retoplogical/UVunwrapping goodness.

    (And meanwhile, I can import models into ZbrushCore, adjust them/create morphs and export them back into Daz again and it's much much much more straightforward than Blender or even Hexagon. Just really intuitive and straightforward.

    Agreed. If I had the finances and did more organic modeling I would be using Zbrush now.

    Funny I have had Blender installed on my PC for the last few years, current versions. And every few months I get reminded about how much it can do so i fire it up and see if I can figure it out finally. Several hours later I am off to another app as fast as possible before I lose my sanity, LOL. I keep thinking one day it will click, like it did with Maya, which took me about 6 months to finally get it. 3DSMax came very easy since I used it's little brother Gmax for years before and the UI is almost the same.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,581

    I will say the PA's being the only ones with that plugin and the models not being very sculptable without it devalues all the Genesis generations for me in my own mind.  I have lots of G3F stuff and might get some stuff for the male.  I am more interested in Lttlefox's cartoon characters all of a sudden.  It will be a cold day before I invest in another genesis generation the way I did G3F.  I may prefer to be an end user but if I had really understood how low poly G3F was and what that means when I was shopping I am not sure I would have spent as much on stuff for her.  I still like to play with G3F and all but I do see her in a different light now that I know she isn't very sculptable for me with or without Zbrush. It doesn't take away the tons of stuff for her made by artists.  But never the less, it makes me less willing to buy another character like this.

    Again, there is a misconception that PAs are starting sculpting in high poly. They aren't. We all start with that same  base mesh and start there. High poly is only for any details from that. You can sculpt in low poly, it just requires practice. And zbrush is pretty good at sculpting once you learn the tool and the brushes you can use to make your morph.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 40,514

    Blender is the spawn of nightmares. But I've found ZbrushCore really friendly. Yeah, they call models tools, but whatever. I'm hoping I use it enough that I can justify an upgrade to straight-up Zbrush and get all that retoplogical/UVunwrapping goodness.

    (And meanwhile, I can import models into ZbrushCore, adjust them/create morphs and export them back into Daz again and it's much much much more straightforward than Blender or even Hexagon. Just really intuitive and straightforward.

    Agreed. If I had the finances and did more organic modeling I would be using Zbrush now.

    Funny I have had Blender installed on my PC for the last few years, current versions. And every few months I get reminded about how much it can do so i fire it up and see if I can figure it out finally. Several hours later I am off to another app as fast as possible before I lose my sanity, LOL. I keep thinking one day it will click, like it did with Maya, which took me about 6 months to finally get it. 3DSMax came very easy since I used it's little brother Gmax for years before and the UI is almost the same.

    ...yeah same here, I would install the latest and greatest version when someone said, "hey they made it better", and after a couple weeks of scratching my head in frustration and wondering if I need to send off for the Blender Super Secret Decoder Ring (not sure which cereal box tops and how many I need) to figure out its secrets, It gets uninstalled and I go back to Hexagon.

  • Cris PalominoCris Palomino Posts: 11,142

    As Male-M3dia is saying, the majority of morphs you see at Daz are created on the base resolution model.  You may be thinking that because base resolution looks so faceted in ZBrush that the morphs can't look good in Studio.  One thing that Studio allows you to do is to use dynamic subdivision which allows you to see the mesh with a higher resolution without actually adding any subdivision.  One level in dynamic subdiv is all that is needed since, in Studio, you would be using the high-resolution version of the model (which is actually the default for Daz figures).

    That said, you can work with any program that allows you to manipulate the mesh.  Some people use Blender, and certainly, the advantage is being free.  Some use Modo.  I use both of those, but prefer ZBrush as they have some tremendously good tools (brushes and more like dynamic subdiv).  Use what program you get along with and fits within your budget.

  • ValandarValandar Posts: 1,417

    Well, just as an example, most of my more recent critters (from about the Hunting Drake on) and almost all of my fantasy characters (such as the Reptillian for Genesis and my Giant Lore) were done in ZBrush... I might have been able to do them with traditional methods, but it would have taken an unimaginably long time to do so.

  • 3D Coat or, if you don't mind  subscription model, Mudbox are also options for morph sculpting and painting.

  • ebergerly said:
    kyoto kid said:

    ..wait, there's something with a more cryptic UI than Blender's?

    Go no, right? 

    How about this...

    ZBrush also has a regular polygonal modeller, not just the fancy sculpting stuff. How do you get there to do regular modelling? Well, there's probably a tab that takes you into a different room or something right? 

    No. It's a brush. The polygonal modeller is a brush. 

    Just thinking about it makes my head explode. 

    ZModeler makes perfect sense as a brush, since that's what every sculpting "tool" in zBrush is called. Yeah, some of the uses of terminology are odd, but once you get used to those things, you don't pay much attention to them until you open blender or some other modeling program.

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