Different skin maps for all Gen 3 characters is dumb
ARealiti
Posts: 135
in The Commons
Can't even take the normals off one character and use on another it's just terrible
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I agree and I suspect that the majority of folks think the same, but DAZ keeps doing it, even though the PAs pretty much stopped supporting the alternative UVs about halfway through Genesis 2. The sad thing is that it has, ironically, now become a really good reason NOT to buy a new figure for the skin, since it makes them far less versatile than one produced for the G3bases, and ultimately limits their usefulness in the long term.
The original Genesis concept was a Good Idea.
But regretibly it was a bit too brilliant and Ultimately self defeating from Content market perspective.
when you have one figure that is versatile enough to use everyone's Clothing hair and Skins people tend to buy less.
Hence you see a move towards the purpose built ,less versatile "Characters" with there own
less versatile content.
I used to think so also, yet when I reload old genesis 1 files to work on them again I see how poorly the mesh/joints/bending are compared to G2 and G3 now, I see why they made the change. As a modeler I am awalys amazed how how a mesh of one thing can be turned into something completely different without add polys. Vendors like rawart and Chris over at HW, do some amazing morphing with the models we have.
I have to agree on the alternate UV situation. Luckily the PAs have the choice and most stick with the base UVs
When I was a new user (well less experienced), I thought they added something new; there is the odd character that does to some extent, but generally they add nothing I find worth the cost.
Some of the textures on the specialist figures are very good though, so when they have been heavily discounted, I've bought them - well a couple of them. The trouble is, even though there are some great textures on these characters, I find them of less value because of the different UVs; this now influences my decision to purchase, and although it is possible to convert the UVs, it does take some time, and adds to the cost from my perspective.
Agreed. i got caught in the Monique 7 frenzy and bought her not even thinking about the UV situation. Now I have a special one of a kind figure that has limited use since my third party genital figure doesn't support her UV, DOH, what was I thinking. Same for Ophelia as I really lover her textures, but sadly, limited use also.
I thought they were finally stopping this after the Genesis 2 backlash
custom uv maps provide less distortion for the character shape they are designed for, use a base uv map on a curvy figure, and you get distortions in some areas.
I guess that was the main reason for creating custom uv maps.....
Bend a knee and you get distortions. It's an argument that can be made theoretically but is practically meaningless. I was just looking at the amazing shapes RawArt comes up with, and they somehow get by with the base UVs.
It's just an inconvenience, anyway. It seems easy enough to remove and apply any morphs to any figures of the same generation with whatever UVs. So, say, Teen Josie with an Olympia skin is straightforward.
They'll probably keep it because it's a physical justification for the big named-character releases. "Bethany", "Eva", etc. They're all just morphs + textures + marketing.
Custom purpose built UV Maps for custom, purpose built Shapes
hmm ...sort of like this limited use
"Character"
https://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3d-blonde-business-woman-character/779611
i dont understand what yoos saying, you can use any g3 uvs on any g3 character of same gender, just change in the parameter settings under misc
most of them seem to move the eyebrows
Edited and rephrased - added some general information about UV maps and some example images:
UV maps are used to assing the U and V coordinates on a map (texture) to the corresponding X, Y, Z coordinates of a 3D Model.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UV_mapping
When you have two different body shapes you use two different UV sets to make sure that on each shape there is no distortion when applying maps created specifically with that UV set.
To view the UV maps in DAZ Studio follow this guide:
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/artzone/pub/software/multiuvs/muv_viewing
Some examples:
If you have purchased multiple shapes with different UV sets for Genesis 3 female you can toggle between them if needed.
If you have objects without any extreme shape morphs then one UV set is enough:
I would not call this "dumb". It all depends on what you want to achieve.
Genesis
Do you want to create stylized renders with figures that support morphs and switching maps?
-> That is what you get with Genesis.
As long as the skin details are barely visible on the diffuse map you can use any other displacement, bump or normal map to add the details.
-> one shared UV map for this purpose is enough.
You may get distortions when you use the same UV with extremely different shapes.
- - -
Standalone figures
IF you are interested in high quality and photorealism
THEN the diffuse map and the corresponding maps that add the details need to match up.
-> It is very important to use a specific UV map for the specific character shape.
-> When you work on characters in Zbrush you add color and geometry detail with the same brush.
-> When you scan humans you create both photorealistic textures and the corresponding detail maps
The general idea of Genesis is great. You can mix and match shapes and textures as you want.
However, the "Limited use" of standalone figures gives you the possiblity to create higher quality content for a one specific character (shape).
-> Why do clothes and characters in games and movies often look very high quality?
There is no autofit and texture swapping. All content was created for one specific standalone figure or a specific shape with a specific UV set.
- - -
What does this mean for DAZ3D and Genesis?
Instead of only products that are created with autofit in mind it would be very interesting to see also clothing and prop products that are designed specifically for shapes that feature their own UV like Victoria 7.
It does not have to be one or the other. DAZ3D could release both types of products in the store.
- - -
There should be careful consideration which figure shapes should feature specific UV sets.
And then of course there needs to be continued support!
It would be important to properly communicate the intended purpose of the product:
-> versatile characters, maps and clothing intended to be interchangeable with autofit and the basic G3 UV set. (G3F, G3M)
-> characters and clothing intended to be used with one specific shape and UV set. (V7, M7 only)
- - -
yeh, but you can morph the default G3 (or whatever) and paint the texture on the morphed character, yet keep the same UVs.
It's the texture painting on the appropriate shape that is important, not the UVs.
I've converted a number of the special UV characters to default, and have not noticed any distortion, over and above what posing does regardless of UVs.
I'm not as expert as the rest of you but I thought UVs were more or less normals for a particular geometry? Shouldn't DAZ Studio have the capability of applying a morph and then recalculating the UVs/normals for the geometry once the morph is applied to get the new geometry? Isn't that what modeling software does as you sculpt/box model?
And that then confuses me somewhat as for the need for these extra normal maps except to paint on details that are actually missing in the geometry and that you don't want modeling in the geomtry though, eg skin pores, moles, most wrinkles and so on.
render samples?
Normal maps basically adjust how light bounces off the surface, making it appear like the surface is molded in some way.
The thing is, the map only 'makes sense' based on the shape used to create the map.
If the original shape is morphed a bunch, Normal maps will look weird, particularly where the Normal is strong and the morph is very different.
In that respect, bump and displacement is a little more forgiving. But I still prefer Normals.
Finally, Normals are awesome at adding fine details that would normally require high SubD without needing high subd.
For example, consider this: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Exile-Comparison-675291549
The first image is Exile in all it's SubD4 glory.
The second image is Exile at Subd1.
Now, in the third image, I've used Substance Painter 2 to extract a Normal map that captures the 'look' of SubD4 details, and then added that to the Subd1 image. There is a subtle difference between this and the SubD4 original, but given it has 1/64th as many polygons... that's a plus.
Normals and UVs are totally different. The UV mapping tells each polygon which area of an image is to be appiied to it. Normals, as TW says, specify which way the surface is to be treated as facing for lighting purposes.
I understand completely
as an animator I find Genesis 2 with HD morphs good enough for my purposes.
and I dont do naked people so I dont have this fixation on joints.
You know, just make every skin work on every character and figure. Every clothing item work on every character and figure. Every hair model. Like others have said - all this confusion MAKES ME BUY LESS OF EVERYTHING. Oh - only iRay - don't buy. Oh - only Genesis 3 male - don't buy. If whatever it is isn't essentially compatible with everything I already own - then DON'T BUY.
is this really about not wanting to buy the character base to get the uvs template?
Probably, since once you have the figure installed, the UVs and textures can be applied to any G3F (or G3M) figure, not just the one its designed for.
But they need to know what polygon a UV applies too to calculate the normals as I thought that was the purpose of the UV really. I guess I'll look it up again exactly.
Normal maps need UV mapping definitions, yeah, but same as all maps.
UV maps tell the renderer where to put the stuff from the texture map.
So, Normal maps are dependent on UV mapping... but ALSO, as I outline above, additionally very sensitive to morphs. (Mind you, morphs obviously can distort other maps)
I think it's the inverse. Getting a great skin like Rune 7, but not being able to easily use it with a lot of the commercial products that are designed around the base G3F. Not to mention that if there's sufficent demand, some P.A. may decide to market an adapter to take the skin up to the next generation of product, but given that there are only one or two vendors who're even supporting the Victoria 7 maps, my guess is that every single skin for a base figure for Genesis 3 other than G3F and G3M will become functionally obsolete when Genesis 4 is released. And as for the "superior fit" argument, that only works if I want to use that specific character EXACTLY as she or he comes out of the box. The minute I start dialing in other morphs, I might as well be using the base maps, and how many people actually render their characters exactly the way they come shipped? Ten percent?
Well apparently enough people do to make
venders comfortable with the idea releasing what
are essentially one off characters.
Updated my last post with some general information about UV maps and some screenshots.
Hopefully it is now more clear what I was rambling about.
I am one of those people.
Each week there are countless characters released with the basic Genesis 3 female UV set. Buy those to dial spin custom characters.
But please let people who care about quality also have their turn.
That is why I spend money on pro bundles that feature higher quality specific shapes with their own UV sets, superior texture quality and HD morphs.
- - -
There needs to be room for both.
I guess I don't understand the problem. Every G3F skin will work on every G3F character. Here are a couple of examples.
Not quite. Load up the base GF3, head over the surfaces tab and go close up on her face, Now select the face and then try out the other UV options. Most changes are small, some like teen Josie 7 and Aiko 7 are pretty noticable
You can use the map transfer utility to convert between the UV sets for a character if you want. There is some distortion (depending on how different the character UVs are) and it does take a few steps but it is doable and after you convert the maps you can save and reuse them.