Issue with GeoGraft + SubD
EternalWinds
Posts: 42
Hello,
Bit of an odd one, this. The GeoGraft in question follows all the required rules (matching vertex locations etc.), but only properly GeoGrafts in an older version of Daz on another PC. I believe the version is 4.8.
I say it's odd because no matter how many times I try to GeoGraft on the current version of Daz at home, the mesh always has visible seams around the edges when applying SubDivision to the G2F figure it's fitted to. It doesn't automatically copy the SubD modifier of the parent, and if I apply a seperate SubD modifier the gaps grow worse.
Especially mind-boggling is the fact that not only does this exact same GeoGraft process work perfectly fine on the 4.8 version but if I perform it there and then open the file in 4.9 it's correct and works fine.
Did 4.9.3 break GeoGrafting or something...? :P
(Would supply picture examples but the graft is mature in nature; can show examples of seams if necessary)
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Comments
Are you sure the graft is fitted to the base figure in 4.9?
Rich,
I'm pretty sure, yes. I've tried various things, such as copying the "graft faces" from the base model again to ensure they're 100% identical on the new GeoGraft part, and various parameters inside Daz when it comes to the Transfer Utility, but it always seems to be the same result.
If I pose a nearby limb, seams appear (i.e. gaps where geograft mesh meets G2F) whether in Base or High Resolution, though un-posed it matches when in Base resolution. It's particularly odd because as I said, the process works fine in the older version of Daz on another computer.
It's as if the graft faces aren't working properly because the auto-hide faces work, and it doesn't inherit High Resolution from the parent figure that GeoGrafts usually do.
If the auto hide faces are hiding then that certainly sounds like it's fitted. DS 4.9 (or late 4.8) did improve the precision of its reading of numeric values on OBJ import, as I recall. Which scale are you using for Import/Export? If it's a large scale factor - such as Poser - then it may be that rounding errors are enough for the vertices not to match in DS 4.9 while they do in 4.8.
As for me it only happen, when I choose Geometry editor tool.. if I set current tool as geometry editor, it auto separate current Geo grafted item. and show seam, show hidden poligons, then remove sub-D
but if I change tool, Geo grafted sub-D return and hide mesh correctly. (I use this way to controll mesh include geo item or merge)
Yes, I hadn't thought of that - though if it works on a version from 4.8 but not a new version in 4.9 I'm not sure it works as a cause.
Hmm... well I tried with several other GeoGraft things i've made, and it's the same result; in 4.8 things graft just fine and work when opened in 4.9 - I hadn't even thought about this and usually started the process on the other PC, so hadn't been aware of the issue 'til a few days ago - but GeoGrafting in 4.9 seems to bug out when it comes to the "graft faces" and using the figure's SubD, behaving as if you had disconnected vertices inside a mesh. Applying SubD myself rounds the GeoGraft's edges which creates worse gaps and seams.
For scale, I import into DAZ at 100%. That said, I also export at 100% and use that same scale in Blender, which is huge for Blender (the workspace grid appears as a small square between the Gen2F's feet), but so far it's worked fine for everything i've done. The meshes still line up when imported at 100% scale, with the faces clipping into each other.
If you think it'll make a difference i'll try exporting from Blender smaller and importing with the adjusted scale, but unless vertices being off by literal molecules can mess up GeoGrafts I can't see it being an issue. :P
I could also try another version of Blender to see if there's some specific bug involving my Blender version and Daz 4.9?
No, 100% should be fine - no rounding due to scale. It was if you were using a preset such as the poser one that I thought there could be issues.
So, unfortunately, I tried the exact same process in 4.8 as I was doing in 4.9 and it works perfectly.
Seems that for whatever reason 4.9 has borked GeoGrafting, though if not many people use the feature there's not going to be much feedback on it. Have there been any new options included relating to GeoGrafts or do you think it's a legitimate bug? It replicates with anything I try; works fine in 4.8, not in 4.9.
I still suspect it's related to precision, but I can't recall when the importer precision was increased. I would, however, open a support ticket and see what they have to say.
I highly doubt precision is the problem since i've twice exported the base G2F mesh and copied the vertices exactly... the only thing I can think of trying to properly confirm it's an issue is to try and geo-graft a part of the base mesh onto itself; if those vertices don't match up, surely something's wrong? :P
I took g3f into Blender; base resolution, no navel or mouth realism HD (those morphs are only G3).
Selected the area I wanted to do the graft and expanded it a couple of rows.
I Shift-D duplicated the piece.
P to separate by selection.
In edit on new piece, I removed polys for the tail which left the additional two loops intact.
I selected the inner row where I had removed geometry and W > Loop Tools > Circle.
I extruded the circle and again till I formed a tail.
I proceeded to create vertex groups for the bones I would need in DS, uv mapped the geograft tail; matching rings were set to pelvis with others as tail bones.
I exported the tail
In DS, I imported the tail.
Selected the tail and ran the Transfer Utility with g3f as source and tail as target.
I rotated the pelvis to test the tail and it moved with the body.
Inspecting the mesh, http://prntscr.com/fj1nv2, it seems to match up pretty well.
Thanks for the input, though it doesn't matter if it's G2F or G3F, or if it's a basic graft, unfortunately the issue persists. :(
I'd love to see if you can replicate this problem Cris by posing the figure after applying the GeoGraft. Your example only seemed to show the tail moved with the pelvis, which isn't the problem; the problem is GeoGrafted meshes not conforming or "grafting" correctly.
The included images are the result of exporting the G3F figure, creating a basic GeoGraft in Blender, importing that into Daz and going through the Transfer Utility / GeoGraft / auto-hide faces routine.
The graft is located on the G3F's shoulder area. At first it appears fine, but the "seam" appears when things are posed. The GeoGraft faces - despite matching perfectly - aren't linking properly. The last picture shows how it doesn't follow the parent's SubD rule either, when a "working" GeoGraft does.
Again, the fly in the ointment is that the exact same process works without a hitch in Daz 4.8, but always acts the same as the images when attempting in 4.9. I'm convinced something's slightly amiss "under the bonnet".
Is opening a support ticket going to be any use, you think? I don't want to have a copy/paste response if this is actually a bug with the program! ;)
I created a piece at the shoulder where there is more rotation and tension.
Into DS with transfer utility run. http://prntscr.com/fj40nr
I raised the collar and bent the shoulder. http://prntscr.com/fj42kc
A bit of separation. http://prntscr.com/fj4152 and with both items with subd of 1. http://prntscr.com/fj436d
Maybe we can get Sickle Yield to take a peek as she does hers in Blender as well.
I test with current rpoduct build 4.9,, it seems work for me,, maybe there should be some step, which cause difference I feel. (not test with beta at current)
1. I make geo grafte breast accessory, in blender for zero morphed zero pose, zero sub-D genesis3 female, t I do not set UV map etc,at current. but just keep same vertex positon, about attached grafted faces.
Then,, I know, old version ds need to keep same vertex postion about all graft facet polgions.. but most of recent version ds , I only needed to keep same vertex positon about outer edge, of grafted facet.
but I hope to make it work clearly, then about this test, I set all grafted face keep same vertex positon with Actor mesh. (both, inner edge, and outer edge) in my pic, those selected poligons keep same vertex positon with Genesis3 mesh vertex. (I use snap tool, then it should work)
2. export it to ds, then check grafted faces keep same vertex psiton, then I use TU and transfer rig and weight. for zero base resolution figures. I do not use template, about this graft items. Actually I still do not know clear,, wthich transfer option (use near vertices, or use adaptive,,) work good or not, then just keep default.
3 now grafted item fit to genesis3 . keep fit to, select genesis3female, go to geometry editor, and set this loop gfated part of genessi3female mesh, as graft faces for attachment.
4 next, I need to set auto hide faced when graft item fit to, Then I select grafted part poligons + all mesh which I want to hide from actor mesh when graft item fit to.I think, auto hide faces need to include grafted loop attached faces .
5, after set graft and hide faces,, I can not clearly see difference. but once I un-fit item, and fit to again, then change tool from geometery editor, I can clear see, attach item work as grafted item.
6 when I trun actor sub-D ,graft item auto sub-d applied. and no vertext show me, gap, when posing, and morphing.
7 if I hide attach mesh, genesis3femlae show , empty mesh, which I set hidden. and attach mesh have not applied sub-D, keep resolutiion lever as base. in parameter. but auto-appy sub-D, when fit to, and actor mesh set high resolution.
I seggest, after set graft part, once un-fit, and re-fit again for actor,, then must change tool. and see sub-d will be applied or not,, if sub-D auto applied for graft item,
that usually means, it suceed, if it not work,, it fail I think.
Hmm... thanks for that kitakoredaz, i'll try it out later.
Though I don't think it'll turn out any different since it's the exact same method I use, apart from un-fitting, re-fitting then switching from Geometry editor in that specific order. I do each of those things at least once, though.
Even without SubD the grafted meshes have gaps, so if I see any gaps at that point I assume it's a failed graft. I know what i'm doing(!), it's just not working in 4.9 like it did in 4.8... it works correctly every time in 4.8, so I assume something's changed ;)
I afraid, if this process currently only work with gen3female etc^^; then I know there are many case,, which not work with each reason, and I know you know well ! (you no need to learn how to from scratch ,, but at current it not work with ds 4.9 for you )
sorry I just test it for my purpose.
Oh, any and all input is welcomed kita! Just that for me, it doesn't seem to work with either G2F or G3F.
I thought it might be because I was using G2F, but the last example I gave was done with G3F to see if G2F was the problem. Didn't work. :(
I'm sure there's a simple solution somewhere... :P
I once had that problem too - but I think I used DS 4.8 back then.
For some reason as I created morphs for the geograft in ZBrush and then replaced the base shape with some of that ZBrush Morph by Update Base Geometry - some but not all of the Geograft vertices fall appart when fitted to the figure - even if they still looking to be on the same spott. Then I switched to the geomerty editor again and repeated the Geometry Assignment for Graft-Faces and Auto-Hide Faces. I think the Re-Assignment is always a good idea after Update Base Geometry of the geograft.
I also thought of a precicion problem due to the import export process but I also had problems to mask the outer edges of the geograft in ZBrush and maybe some smoothing moved them silightly.
Whatever caused the problem I did invent a method to fix it with Blender.
Therfore I selected the Auto-Hide Faces of the Genesis Figure in DS and created a Face Group out of it (I didn't save the scene or figure with the new Face-Group not neccesary but its just handy to have it in blender).
Then I've exported the figure and the geograft as separate obj's 100% DS-Scale - and loaded the genesis figure with the new face-group and Geograft into Blender.
The next thing I did was I deleted the Auto-Hide Faces and joined the figure with the geograft to one object. Before joining objects take care of the Face-Groups/Vertex-Groups with same name on both objects and rename/delet/merge them as you like you just need to seperate the geograft from the figure later.
Then in edit mode I used vertex selection with Snap-To-Vertex option. I started to select some vertex from around the edgeloop of the geograft and select-snaped all vertecis back to the genesis figure vertex position all around the geograft edgeloop. While doing that I got problems to select the right vertex so I decided to first select the geograft edgeloop and g-grab move it away from the figure before I select-snaped the vertecis back.
After that I selected all genesis figure geometry and deleted it. Whats left is the geograft geometry with the outer edge-loop exactly aligned to the genesis figure again.
Then I've exported the geograft obj to use it as an update to the existing figure in DS with Update Base Geometry. I also did the Re-Assignment and fitted the geograft to the figure and it worked.
You can also import/replace new Face-Groups or default UV-Maps of figures or props I think - if you choose Update Full Geometry with no morph shape applied in the source geometry for Update Base Geometry.