IRay Material confusion
marble
Posts: 7,449
I bought the Oskarsson Bachelorette Outfit which comes with folders for 3DL and IRay materials. However, when I apply the IRay material and look in the Surfaces tab, it shows as DAZ Studio Default shader type. I concluded that the PA had somehow packaged the materials wrong, so that the IRay selctions pointed to the 3DL materials. So I logged a ticket.
Support have come back to me saying that I am mistaken and that DAZ Studio Defaults doesn't mean they are not IRay materials. They don't require IRay materials to use the IRay uber shader. Here's part of the response.
You mentioned that you are referencing the Surfaces tab to verify the materials of each clothing type. Are you concluding that the Iray materials were not installed correctly because they show the shader being listed as "DAZ Studio Defaults"? If so, while the shader listed is DAZ Studio Default, this does not always necessarily mean that these are 3Delgiht materials. While Iray materials are typically Uber shaders, we do not require this and some artists prefer to make their Iray materials with DAZ Studio Default shaders. Because of this, as well as comparing the file sizes of these two material options and rendering a few scenes, I do believe that the materials are correctly categorized.
So I am confused - as the support response says, I did think that "DAZ Studio Defaults" meant 3DL. Can anyone explain further? Does the Uber shader not define what is an IRay material?
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I have another set by the same PA - On the set I have the Materials that are in the Iray & 3DL folders share identical settings, in addition to being called Daz Default Shaders both have 3DL parameters.
I assume what support means is that as long as the item renders OK in Iray & 3DL there is no requirement to have different settings for each render engine although to me that makes things confusing as when it says "Iray" I expect Iray settings :)
The Daz Default Shader is a 3Delight Shader. If the PA has adjusted its settings to give the intended results in Iray then that is an acceptable use - it's the results that matter, not the route taken.
There are a number of products marketed for Iray that use daz default materials.
I'm with @marble and @Tottallou. I think it's misleading to advertise Iray materials, and even have Icons specifically for Iray materials, when in fact the materials are not using Iray settings. Instead, the adcopy should state somthing like the 3Delight materials work in Iray. Some might think that's a no-brainer, but I seem to recall there are some things that are not fully compatible from 3DL to Iray. And that is certainly true the other way round.
If a vendor wants to advertise "Iray Materials" and their 3DL materials convert to Iray with no problems, why not take the extra time to convert each using the Iray Uber Base and then save the new material preset?
An automaker wouldn't advertise a car as a hybrid if it didn't include both the gas engine and the electric battery, even if they provided an adapter that allowed you to install the electric battery...
I respectfully disagree, at least in those instances when a PA states the product has "Iray Materials." As a controversial radio talk show host likes to say, "Words mean things."
Now if they change the wording to "Iray compatible 3DL materials," and don't bother with the separate icons for Iray materials, I'd agree with "it's the results that matter, not the route taken." This is, of course, my personal opinion.
Well, the Support response indicates that the Oskarsson product contains different files for 3DL and Iray even though they are both DAZ Default. That would suggest to me that the PA has done some work making them compatible. I'll check when I get a chance to see if there is a noticeable difference in the renders of each.
I just wanted some clarification on what it means to claim that something is an IRay material. Perhaps foolishly, what I have been doing while waiting for the response from support is manually converting the so-called IRay materials from DAZ Default to Iray by applying the IRay Uber Shader. :)
In this case, at least, they aren't "Iray compatible 3delight settings" - or at least, that would seem an inaccurate label to me since the explictly 3Delight materials aren't for Iray (and presumably don't give the intended results there).
I did the test and I can not see any difference in the two renders. Here are the tests (3DL materials first, then IRay MDL).
Please keep images to ta width of 800 px. ~Mod
I interpret that as having both Iray and 3DL materials. Seems very misleading to me if it has only 3DL materials.
Interesting. I remember getting a product from another site which claimed to support 3DL and IRay, and I was a bit disappointed that the IRay shaders were all using, "DAZ Studio Defaults", even though it rendered reasonably well in IRay. This might explain why the PA thought that making a product IRay compatible was simply a matter of checking the renders rather than replacing all the shaders.
Interesting. I remember getting a product from another site which claimed to support 3DL and IRay, and I was a bit disappointed that the IRay shaders were using, "DAZ Studio Defaults", even though it rendered reasonably well in IRay. This might explain why the PA thought that making a product IRay compatible was simply a matter of checking the renders rather than replacing all the shaders.
Again, I'm confused. Does MDL mean it uses the IRay Uber Shader or not?
I was under the impression that Studio auto converted 3DL materials when rendered under Iray. I just did a test that, to me, seems to confirm that thought. Here are 2 renders of Cara HD G2F. First render is with 3DL base mats but rendered in Iray. Second render uses the Daz Iray Uber shader, rendered in Iray. They look the same to me. What say you?
EDIT: Apparently I was i a hurry and forgot to attach the images.
I'm also going to agree w/ Tottallou AND L'Adair . I think it's disingenuous at best to advertise that a 3DL material that "looks ok" in Iray is actually an Iray Material. To put identical materials in Iray and 3DL folders crosses the line to false advertising, lying or similar. It's the knid of think that makes me stop buying from a PA. Not to mention, what does that say to the PA's that actually create Iray shaders?
I'm also going to respectfully disagee with "The Daz Default Shader is a 3Delight Shader. If the PA has adjusted its settings to give the intended results in Iray then that is an acceptable use - it's the results that matter, not the route taken." That may be acceptable to the poster (whom I respect), but it's not acceptable to me. I also don't believe that a 3DL shader can be adjusted to give the same results as Iray uinless it has all of the Iray parameters, (thus becoming an Iray shader).
Coincidentally, yesterday I bought a product from the "other store" and the promo makes it clear that the materials are 3DL which render quite well in IRay. That vendor does not make the claim that IRay materials are included. I'm not trying to single out Oskarsson here - I'm sure he had the best of intentions but it would be good to get some guidelines on this. As fastbike1 points out - IRay materials using IRay shaders are there for a reason and, although DAZ Studio often does a good job at converting, custom IRay shaders must surely be preferable.
The MDL shaders are Iray shaders, just a different type than the Iray uber shader.
Yet when I look at another product which has IRay MDL materials, the Surfaces Panel has IRAY Uber listed as the shader. This is why I'm a little confused.
Does the Iray MDL preset have actual Iray settings or even anything different to the ones that are in the 3DL folder?
The product I have does not say MDL & the actual preset settings in both Iray & 3DL folders are identical- It seems to work fine in both which as Richard said is what matters most but IMHO it should not say
when really its 3DL mats that work in Iray
I do not have the Bachelorette Outfit that Marble is using. I do, however, have another Oskarsson product which states Iray Materials, has separate icons for Iray Materials, but in fact uses 3DL materials.
To test if there was anything different between the materials from one shader to the other, I put two identical products in the scene. In the case, the European Loafers from the European Clothes for Genesis 3 Male(s). I specifically applied the 3DL shaders to one pair and the Iray shaders to the other by clicking on the material icons.
The loafers have 7 material zones. In the Surface->Editor, I selected each zone for both loafers, one at a time, and looked at the various parameters for that zone. In all seven zones, the parameters were identical. There wasn't a single <?> showing for anything. I did the same thing with the pants and the sweater with the same results. For the colors I checked, the shaders were identical whether the material was applied as a 3DL or Iray shader.
I don't mean to pick on Oskarsson. I've come across other products from other vendors with the same issue.
Ultimately, "the buck stops" with DAZ. DAZ is obviously okay with this, or items like these would never get passed QA. So the solution to the issue is to convince DAZ that we as consumers do not want 3DL shaders listed as Iray shaders, regardless of how well they render in Iray. We want the truth. Just tell us the 3DL shaders have been tested and work the same in Iray as they do in 3DL. (In the case of Oskarsson's European Outfit for G3M, the statement "Iray compatible 3delight settings materials" is, in fact, accurate.) I'm fine with that.
However, if DAZ is asking/requiring their vendors to supply both 3DL and Iray materials and those materials are actually the same, I think DAZ should also ask those vendors to use the Iray Uber Base to convert the 3DL materials and create Iray material presets from the converted materials... No more support tickets because customers think there is something wrong with the product, no more irate customers because they think the vendor is misleading them in the adcopy, no more forum threads asking why "Iray materials" don't have Iray parameters...
Seriously, how do you quantify lost sales when people stop buying from specific vendors because they feel the vendors are being "disingenuous"?
That little MDL Icon is something DAZ Studio internally puts there when the material is saved. Which should mean that it is in fact an MDL shader.
Sadly I suspect the next step woudl be for 'them' to load the 3DL shaders, apply Iray Uber and save as Iray Shaders. It is misleading in many ways. I can accept 3DL shaders being used (I have noiced a few products that suppsoedly apply Iray shaders) having one, or more, mat zone with 3DL shadres (some DAZ default, some omUber) and have been perplexed,spending a goodly time trackign things down to see what I did wrong and finally acceptign that the vendor decided the 3DL stuff translated fine as they stand. If something says 'Iray shaders' especially if (when looked at in DS) the icon has an MDL overlay I would expect (and demand?) those shdares/materials to apply as actual Iray Material Defintion Language shaders
Exactly.
And here are some technical reasons why this is unacceptable as well.
It's just plain inefficient to use 3DL shaders for an Iray render. (When using older content, one of the first things I do is convert it to Iray with the Iray Uber Base shader.) And as you can see from the above, it can also be time consuming and frustrating. When a consumer buys a product with Iray Materials, they shouldn't have to remember to convert those materials with the Iray Uber Base. It should already be done for them. Going back to real world analogies, if I buy a chocolate milkshake, I shouldn't receive a vanilla milkshake with a side of chocolate syrup and be expected to mix them myself.
"Words mean things." Iray materials should mean Iray parameters for the material zones.
Yes, I'm often disappointed at the number of iRay materials that were really for 3DL materials converted in advance to iRay with a few preset clicks.
I'm not sure why you guys have a problem with this, when we are talking about new products, many with texture maps of 4096 x 4096 pixels. I prefer the Iray materials include Normal Maps, but a good number of high quality products with true Iray Materials do not use them. Is there really that big of a difference between Iray Uber and MDL, that every product should have the added attention of MDL?
I hit this issue with another product and got the same result. The official stance is that if it renders without error in Iray, it's fine.
I disagree strenuously, but all you can do is return such products and indicate why.
I really don't want to punish Oskarsson when he is working within what is clearly acceptable to DAZ, so I'm not really inclined to return the product. I do think that DAZ should tighten their policies, however, and make it clear when a material is "true" IRay and when it is 3DL or "DAZ Default" somehow massaged to work with IRAY.
It just doesn't seem right to advertise Iray materials when they are actually using 3DL shaders. I'm fine with either the MDL or the Iray Uber shader being used for the material, in fact I actually prefer the MDL for pretty much everything except skin.
Because they often don't render well is why. High resolution is not everything. Sometimes the results will be better and much more flexible with a small material defintion and tiling but that is rarely done.
Sounds like a shader. Perhaps the vendors are protecting their intellectual property, or have constraints on the images they've purchased to create the materials from.
One of these days, I'm going to have to learn how to create MDL shaders.
I've been griping about the same issue: non-PBR, non-Iray, materials being sold as "Iray Materials" for a long time. I received the same "Daz Studio Default is OK for Iray Materials" response from customer service. I was shocked and dismayed by that policy. To me, it's not acceptable for a vendor to just apply the Iray Uber shader to 3Delight materials and call it "Iray Materials", either. I have stopped buying from some vendors because of this issue. If they ever change their habits, I'll never know, because of the once bitten, twice shy adage. Iray has been out for a long time now. In my opinion, it is long past time for vendors to have gotten up to speed and start providing true PBR materials when they advertise "Iray Materials".
I agree. Although it happens, I would really hope iray materials are really iray compatible and 3delight materials are made for 3DL. There is so much more you can do with properly native iray materials.
Now, see, I'd even be happy if they just applied the Iray Uber shader and tweaked a bit if necessary to create the presets. (I'm thinking of clothing, like the Bachelorette Outfit mentioned in the OP. And I'm not sure I could tell the difference between an Iray Uber conversion and PBR denim on a pair of blue jeans... ) Mec4D's Vol 3 PBR shaders are a merchant resource, so vendors have no real excuse not to provide true PBR metal shaders when appropriate.
Anyway, when I apply an Iray Material preset, I expect to see Iray parameters in the Surfaces->Editor.