Commerical Products forum gone?
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I agree! That way DAZ pas still have their own Commercial section, and DAZ can maintain more of its reputation as being a place that encourages people to improve overall at 3d art and renders, not just a store that only allows people to talk about its own items.
I suggested the same thing and it might be looked into..
And I suggested the same thing. I even suggested it can be put at the bottom of forum list if DAZ3D wishes to give it less spotlight. But some exchange _must_ exist. A lone tree won't survive for long in place where was forest before.
I beg your pardon, your freebie archive, where is it? And a whole freaking ton of your free older figures are not free anymore. And your weekly freebies are now only "buy something to get something" which means you pay..... sorry that doesn't count anymore in my book. your freebie selection in the store is smaller than any of the major competitors.
The huge amounts of traffic going to other stores is PROBABLY because of the DECREASED quality we're getting as members AND nonmembers here at Daz!! We're going there because here is getting worse by the minute! We're going THERE because HERE the value of membership has gone down and nothing Daz has done has fixed it or made it better.
It's logical that Daz does it what it can to retain its customer base. You can paint it however you want, but you lost me as a customer with these changes. I tip well when I get good service, and I leave where the service is the pits. I know when to pack up and leave... and I should have done it a good while ago. I held out this long because I kept believing that Daz would maintain its quality and welcoming standards from the beginning, and it sadly has fallen far below that.
The community is the major draw to come to Daz and shop. Cutting out these things and making them a hostile environment means less people will browse, and less people will shop.
When your forum was down because of the change over, i did not come shop until it was up. And only about once a week and just to peek.
Everything Daz has done in the past year or two has just diminished the Daz experience, cheapened the shopping experience, and belittled vendors and customers alike.
I do feel betrayed, after spending thousands here, turns out Daz is disappointing us.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/categories/41/
We are happy that SOME customers visit the forums and find the community here helpful but to say it is the major draw is to underestimate the changes that have been recently made to navigation, promotions, and just overall improvements to the site.
"Belittling vendors"... the vendors we care so highly about are those who work so hard to create and promote their products on this site.
We are taking steps at every turn to do what is in the best interests of DAZ PAs. This is one of those steps. And yes, DAZ is part of that. If DAZ does not prosper we can not offer a vibrant and dynamic shopping experience to anyone. .
I'm sorry, by "promotions" did you mean that huge blurb in "New Releases" that nobody wanted and that is doubling a function of "Hot Deals" sections, obtusing "New Releases" entirely? Or sales, that don't apply correctly? Or confusing blurbs that promise one thing while newsletter promises another? Or $30 PC renewal that some people get and some don't, despite of being in PC a long time and nearing renewal (yes, I'm bitter here)?
Or by "improvements" you mean that end sale date feature that isn't implemented in DAZ3D store more than half-year after new site went live? "Purchased" is a nice touch but a) it isn't improvement, it is getting back what we had last year b) if "improvements" are going to happen at this rate, things aren't improving at all.
Or, wait, what about EULA that orders us to delete all our previous purchased content unless we accept new terms, which, as I may remind you, is illegal.
Freepository doesn't allow to promote commercial products or discuss commercial products and with DAZ3D new "improved" policy on freebies and other chances do you really think people will flock to Freepository here?
Well, just hope that SOME customers will appreciate that airless space that DAZ3D is becoming. And hope that they will spend enough money to grant salary to any DAZ3D employees.
Garibaldi thread is back: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/9943/P1050/
I'm sorry, your numbers must be wrong then BHowell. How can you even say such a thing in all honesty? You make the Generation 4 and Genesis figures as well as DAZ Studio. If merchants and freebie providers are making stuff for any or all of those products where do you think new customers or current customers are going to come? HERE! I don't know who implemented this new set of rules but their minds do not work the way most of your customers minds do apparently!
I can say that because I am referring to ACTUAL DATA.
The traffic coming from small sites with very little traffic is miniscule compared to the number of referrals that DAZ sends. Think about it. If you have millions of visits (visitors) on one site and a small percentage of them follow a link to another site, that can still be a large number. On the other hand if you have a very small number of visitors and even a large percentage of them go to DAZ, that is still a small number.
So it is all about traffic then, not about people? PAs are getting their spotlight, we got that and it is mostly ok with people, but even with this policy implemented it is possible to give other sites freedom to represent themselves in non-obtrusive way here. Unless you care about traffic more than about people. Because this is a vibe I'm getting from recent conversations. It is all about traffic. And people are only important because they bring traffic.
I never realised Traffic was equal to Sales. Who knew. You learn something new every day.
By having information on 3rd party products like Reality discussed here in the Daz forum then the customer and their wallet are staying here getting the help..... instead the new rules force them to go to the other site (with their wallet) to get the info and oh by the way looking at all their advertisements. Its Daz's forum to do what they want .... but I would think the goal would be to keep the eyeballs here.
If DAZ still wants to protect their PAs while having a 3rd party commercial forum (as suggested above), they could also put a time limit on the 3rd party forum while not placing one on the PA forum. For example, commercial threads by 3rd party vendors could be up for only 30 days while PA threads remain up indefinitely. That would also save on bandwidth, keep things fresh in the 3rd party commercial products forum, and offer some relief to customers who are upset about the changes.
I think a 3rd Party Merchant forum is a really brilliant idea!
That is EXACTLY how the previous commercial thread forum got started.
But then it was pointed out that it was not fair to prohibit DAZ PAs from posting there, so that was allowed and we ended up with a mix of DAZ PAs and 3rd parties.
In the end, DAZ PAs support DAZ (and by extension these forums).
Our loyalty is to them and promoting competing 3rd party products or sites is a disservice to DAZ PAs and DAZ itself.
That is EXACTLY how the previous commercial thread forum got started.
But then it was pointed out that it was not fair to prohibit DAZ PAs from posting there, so that was allowed and we ended up with a mix of DAZ PAs and 3rd parties.
In the end, DAZ PAs support DAZ (and by extension these forums).
Our loyalty is to them and promoting competing 3rd party products or sites is a disservice to DAZ PAs and DAZ itself.
What people are saying: make a SEPARATE 3rd party commercial forum. It can be not in spotlight, like on the very bottom of forums list but 3rd party people will be able to show and discuss their works there, without mixing with PAs. And if I can remind everybody, 3rd party also means texture support that makes user to actually buy an existing product. So how is that a disservice to PAs or DAZ3D original content?
One of your PAs actually left due to change of policy. Don't you think it is counterproductive to what you intended to do?
Your still missing the point of alienating 3rd party vendors that SUPPORT YOUR products DAZ! WE GET THAT YOU WANT to support the vendors here but I'll guarantee you this that if your direction towards blocking 3rd party vendors here they will eventually stop supporting your products. There is a whole new line of figures in the works for Poser. They might not be AS popular in the long run but it will still detract from your sales. A forum where 3rd party vendors ONLY should be implemented to keep the peace. The DAZ only published vendors forum is moderated to only allow DAZ vendors and it's a top most forum, so how is that threatening?
Zevo,
I found out about you as a content creator, before you very recently became a DAZ PA, via your WIP thread HERE for products that could be found else where.
As a result of those very interesting threads and following your progress, I subsequently purchased most of your currrent available items, over at that place that can no longer be named, and you have gained me as a constant customer..(had DAZ had the vision to make you a PA before now then I would have purchased them from here!!!).
But without that thread, it would have been highly unlikely that I would have noticed you or your work..INDEED it is the products that you have released that have ACTUALLY encouraged me to start looking at using Genesis seriously...so DAZ Benefits, and believe me DAZ I have ALOT of spending capablility. ;)
I would also like to point out that if DAZ could provide customers with the things they actually wanted this conversation would be largely academic..
Think on it .
Peace,
S.K.
So it is all about traffic then, not about people? PAs are getting their spotlight, we got that and it is mostly ok with people, but even with this policy implemented it is possible to give other sites freedom to represent themselves in non-obtrusive way here. Unless you care about traffic more than about people. Because this is a vibe I'm getting from recent conversations. It is all about traffic. And people are only important because they bring traffic.
Let's just be clear on definitions here, traffic=people. Behind every visit i.e. traffic is a PERSON who clicked on a link. At the end of the day the ONLY thing that really matters is the visitor.
If we were to do that, we can't limit 3rd parties to ONLY those who support DAZ or its products. A 3rd party section would by definition also allow products that compete head-to-head with DAZ and DAZ PA products. How can that possibly be construed to benefit DAZ or its PAs?
:P I know... have a forum for 3rd party vendors that would need pay to advertise. No discussion (it would hard to control), just nice advertisments. :coolcheese:
I also found out about DAZ and became a customer through a 3rd party who was at the time not a DAZ PA. I also started using Genesis because of products for the figure available through a 3rd party site and renders of the figure that I saw on a 3rd party site. As a result, DAZ has consistently gotten some of my money on a regular basis for several years.
There are also effects of viral marketing that would not necessarily be reflected in number of clicks. For example, a lot of 3rd party vendors (as well as artists who use DAZ products in their renderings on 3rd party sites) will use DAZ products in their promotional renders for their own products. Many vendors and artists include a credit list of products used somewhere in their images and promotional material that lists but doesn't directly link to those products. This information would not show up in advertising data measuring links or clicks.
Let's just be clear on definitions here, traffic=people. Behind every visit i.e. traffic is a PERSON who clicked on a link. At the end of the day the ONLY thing that really matters is the visitor.
Visitors also want to feel free and welcomed in any place they are. DAZ3D and PAs product support through 3rd party vendors aside, what you doing here is not making people feel welcomed or free.
And 3rd party support is essential for your business. But honestly, why should they support anything for DAZ3D figures if DAZ3D doesn't even allow them to say anything about their work unless it is sold through the only channel they allow? You think you can survive on PAs and DOs alone but even if I'm not a seer I don't see how it is possible in a such small market like this, with your broken website (no end sales dates, confusing broken promotions) when you don't hold said marked exclusively in your grasp. And you don't.
Also, traffic doesn't translate directly to sales. I clicked other sites many times out of curiosity, I bought maybe 4 things in 8 years off them. Comparatively to buying from the place that made me feel welcomed and free, like DAZ3D was about 4 months ago.
You think only with numbers, "traffic = people". You forget that people are much more than just traffic.
If we were to do that, we can't limit 3rd parties to ONLY those who support DAZ or its products. A 3rd party section would by definition also allow products that compete head-to-head with DAZ and DAZ PA products. How can that possibly be construed to benefit DAZ or its PAs?
It shows confidence that the products made by DAZ and DAZ's PA are superior, and are well-able to compete in an open marketplace without any need to discourage customers from considering alternatives.
By comparison, what DAZ has just done shows . . . ? :shut:
If we were to do that, we can't limit 3rd parties to ONLY those who support DAZ or its products. A 3rd party section would by definition also allow products that compete head-to-head with DAZ and DAZ PA products. How can that possibly be construed to benefit DAZ or its PAs?
It supports DAZ since they, the 3rd party vendors, support DAZ. It's really quite simple. There is no having a conversation with someone that's made up their mind that the MOST important thing is to support only the vendors that sell exclusively here. Your doing yourselves a disservice to your customers. We wouldn't be here arguing points with you if we agreed with the decision. I think the customers have every right to have a voice in the process since it's our money that supports you, DAZ3D, the vendors here and the vendors outside of DAZ that SUPPORT DAZ as well. It's all a loop. If you break the chain it will break the whole process or create a machine that no longer functions well. I suppose we don't know all the reasoning but from what we've been told a majority here thinks it's not good as a whole.
I'm done here. I've got a life.
You can allow only 3rd party products that are complementing to PAs or DO products, like clothes, textures, morphs, poses, etc. It isn't that hard to put in legal TOS-like terms, and actually you already did it in previous EULAs in regard of derivative content.
It isn't much of freedom but at least some communication and welcomeness.
Please, don't alienate 3rd party support people. You will suffocate in your small pristine bubble otherwise.
Since this change affects all of us, and not just the artists who sell outside of this website, I too feel compelled to speak up. I can only speak for myself, and my own habits, and leave it to you to read how that may reflect on your data in the real world - I think that care must be taken when trying to interpret "data" - since it can be very misleading.
For example, I spend a huge amount of time reading the forums at Daz. I made the choice between Daz and Poser initially because of the Daz forums, the amount of information available here and the help that people so readily offer when you need it. The models available for sale here are fantastic.
I have also purchased things from other sites, although I don't spend much time in their forums, unless the forums here are down. It has always seemed that here is where the most freedom existed, the most people came to share information and artwork, and ideas.
If I go to another website from Daz because I see a link here it is to enhance what I already have bought here, not to replace it. The fact that the model was available SOMEWHERE allows me to further the image I am trying to create, most of that image is put together with models from Daz, IN Daz.
I think Daz may be trying to view us as consumers over artists - however maybe they are forgetting the reason we do make these purchases is so that we can use them to express our own visions, our own inner art. I have always enjoyed the forums here because viewing the models others create, whether they are people who sell their models here at Daz or at another site or whether they give them away free, inspires ideas in me and gives me a way to express those ideas.
I guess what I am trying to say is, I may go from these forums to follow a link now and then, but I spend most of my time here. However, if another, perhaps unbiased website would appear offering a forum that allowed people to express their opinions, post their artwork, and advertise what they are working on and have available, as well as offering advice and help, the way Daz has up until now but no longer seems willing to do, I would then spend most of my time at that website. And right now, I make most of my purchases here, since I spend most of my forum time here. I think that may be a bit of data that you aren't tracking yet -Cathy
If we were to do that, we can't limit 3rd parties to ONLY those who support DAZ or its products. A 3rd party section would by definition also allow products that compete head-to-head with DAZ and DAZ PA products. How can that possibly be construed to benefit DAZ or its PAs?
Nonsense. The definition is what you make it. Don't call it 3rd Party, call it Non-PA Commercial or whatever. The point is I want to read about plug-ins and content that are compatible with DAZ products. Where else can I do that? You have taken away a resource and an excuse to come to your site. So you get a lot of traffic away from this site. The point is you are getting traffic to this site in the first place. That's what brings in the sales. If people stop using your site as a hub then you won't get the opportunity to sell to them.
Nonsense. The definition is what you make it. Don't call it 3rd Party, call it Non-PA Commercial or whatever. The point is I want to read about plug-ins and content that are compatible with DAZ products. Where else can I do that? You have taken away a resource and an excuse to come to your site. So you get a lot of traffic away from this site. The point is you are getting traffic to this site in the first place. That's what brings in the sales. If people stop using your site as a hub then you won't get the opportunity to sell to them.
I want to reinterate that wonderful point.
If people click away from your site to see somewhere else, it means that they came to your site first. Oppressive, bland, sterile environment that you are creating with the new policy won't make people come to your site at the first place. Why would they even care much about oppressive, bland, sterile environment and PAs who sell for it?
I've clicked links in the commercial forum and gone to look at other websites but I haven't always bought. I think perhaps one in ten or so I've bought stuff. Not every time. Anyway this whole thing has left a nasty taste in my mouth. I don't feel like buying anything here any more.
I think this latest move demonstrates that DAZ no longer understands its customers and what motivates them to spend..
Anyhoooo.. I am with da wolf.!!!!
I'm outa here..
Peace,
S.K.
I do NOT doubt BHowell's figures for a New York Second!!!!!!
The policies of the largest competing site had the moderators deleting postings with just a spelled out URL!!! Not even a real link! I know because I experienced this first hand!
The reason there is no reciprocation is because reciprocation is PROHIBITED by the competition! DAZ has been MORE THAN TOLLERANT of people advertizing their stuff here while never receiving the slightest consideration from the competition.
So yes, BHowell's numbers are probably accurate as they can possibly be! I believe them.
OH, why don't you do this: render an image of Victoria 4, post the credits, and in those credits, post a LINK TO DAZ 3D's Victoria 4 page! See what happens!
Frankly, I personally would go one step further.
I would, in the End User Liscense Agreement for ALL DAZ PRODUCTS, specify that any supporting content for those products must CREDIT DAZ 3D directly with a full link to DAZ3D.COM in the product page regardless of where they are posted.
And speaking of oppressive, I just saw a thread deleted twice which thread only suggested the idea of some other common ground, without links or anything or actually promoting any sort of name or product.
I totally rest my case! Amazing, is it not?
DAZ is like the LEAST oppressive 3D site there is (with the possible exception of CGTalk... oh, right, they hate us DAZ users...)
Daz please dont delete my posts..its better to post them here than in my da page that has 6.500 followers....thank you!