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Dear content authors: Please continue to support 3delight

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  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,584
    edited December 2016
    timmins.william said:

    And a point that keeps getting missed is that if Daz doesn't offer centralized support of 3DL and keeps not fixing bugs or letting it languish in a very archaic form, NO WONDER vendors and people are going to go with something else.

    That's not something people can patch over, that is a core decision to guess the market and not prioritize that development/work that can only realistically be done under Daz's aegis.

    Almost all the functions to make very realistic 3DL art are crippled by lack of support -- UE2 bounce lights? Incredibly slow for a number of versions, a fix is unlikely. AoA lights, not quite core but one way, at least, people can get faster results with 3DL and makes that a more attractive option, several functions are broken and unlikely to be fixed. Plus all the stuff like 'ray trace' being a buried option you have to figure out how to get working.

     

    I don't think they've missed that at all. Iray has brought new people in, and as I said, you're going to have a hard time convincing those people that 3delight is going to worth changing their investments back. 

    timmins.william said:

    I mean, I wonder how many customers have been lost when they try any large Iray scene and they don't realize it keeps dumping to CPU, and when they figure out they go 'what, I need a $1500 video card to render this stuff?' and simple quit because they believe they just can't make things work.

    I love the Mesozoic environment that just came out, for example, but I'm finding that trying to do it plus more than one figure pretty much WILL NOT run on my GPU. Luckily, I know I can do it in 3DL, but it'd be really awesome if, say, UE2 bounce lights worked decently (going to try to do it anyway, but... ugh).

    Actually it would seem that it's spurred more people to buy Nvidia cards rather than switch to 3DL.. the alternative would actually be dropping the program altogether. Once again I think people are arguing perceptions versus sales.

    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 1,643
    edited December 2016
    Mustakettu85 said:
    Kevin Sanderson said:

    I'll buy it, wowie, as I have some of your other products.

    Kettu, I hope you can get motion blur for animation into your scripts before wowie bundles them up so I wouldn't have to try and figure it out as I gave up after trying last time. :(

    You've been away for quite a while, Kevin =D We have long (accidentally) discovered that DS generates motion blocks automagically even with scripted rendering, if motion blur is set up properly in the standard render settings pane. 

    Thank you, Kettu! That is great to know!! smiley

    Will, I hope to give wowie's more recent kit a whirl soon. wowie is great with lights and shaders/materials. http://www.daz3d.com/lumina-materials-library

    Post edited by Kevin Sanderson on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,085

    That's on my wish list, been waiting for it to go on sale. Heh.

     

  • LyamLyam Posts: 137
    Male-M3dia said:
    Taozen said:
    Midnight_stories said:
    Taozen said:
    Mustakettu85 said:
    mjc1016 said:

    One of the things I briefly mentioned...OSL.  Almost all the Cycles shaders and Blender lights can have OSL versions...which means you can cook up a Cycles node network in OSL and port it to 3DL (no, not an easy process/for everyone...but doable and SHAREABLE).  That would mean access to the same type of  'physically' accurate lights as Iray uses, the same types of PBR materials and so on.

    Or if OSL isn't  really feasible...

    Supposing we filed a number of customer support requests asking if the implementation of the API required for OSL is in the works or not - how many do you think we'd need to really get a "yes or no" answer?

    Maybe if enough people tell them they won't buy any more DAZ stuff until they answer... wink 

    Edit: Neither if it's the wrong answer... devil

    We are driven by market simple as that ! if you want more 3DL stuff you have to get the market to go that way. So it's up to you guys not us. You have to use your dollars the right way or nothing will get done.

    Save

    Well in this case (as far as I understand) we're talking about an improvement of 3DL which might make some change their minds about it. 

     

    I think the main point that keeps getting missed that the influx of new uesers are here for the combination of Genesis 3 and Iray. A number of those have seen 3Delight and they weren't swayed by it, thus changing minds to the degree to make worth the effort would most likely not be worth it. This subject falls in the same vein as some of those other threads that get derailed because of the software wars that result because of it, where you're arguing perceptions vs actual sales.

    Do you work for DAZ?  If so, do you actually possess the Stats for new customers brought in from G3 and Iray compared to new customers brought in previously from 3DL.  If not, then you are arguing preceptions vs actual sales, as you stated.  Just pointing out flaws in logic.  However, if you do work for DAZ and have access to their sales and customer data then that would be different.  

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,584
    edited December 2016
    Lyam said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    Taozen said:
    Midnight_stories said:
    Taozen said:
    Mustakettu85 said:
    mjc1016 said:

    One of the things I briefly mentioned...OSL.  Almost all the Cycles shaders and Blender lights can have OSL versions...which means you can cook up a Cycles node network in OSL and port it to 3DL (no, not an easy process/for everyone...but doable and SHAREABLE).  That would mean access to the same type of  'physically' accurate lights as Iray uses, the same types of PBR materials and so on.

    Or if OSL isn't  really feasible...

    Supposing we filed a number of customer support requests asking if the implementation of the API required for OSL is in the works or not - how many do you think we'd need to really get a "yes or no" answer?

    Maybe if enough people tell them they won't buy any more DAZ stuff until they answer... wink 

    Edit: Neither if it's the wrong answer... devil

    We are driven by market simple as that ! if you want more 3DL stuff you have to get the market to go that way. So it's up to you guys not us. You have to use your dollars the right way or nothing will get done.

    Save

    Well in this case (as far as I understand) we're talking about an improvement of 3DL which might make some change their minds about it. 

     

    I think the main point that keeps getting missed that the influx of new uesers are here for the combination of Genesis 3 and Iray. A number of those have seen 3Delight and they weren't swayed by it, thus changing minds to the degree to make worth the effort would most likely not be worth it. This subject falls in the same vein as some of those other threads that get derailed because of the software wars that result because of it, where you're arguing perceptions vs actual sales.

    Do you work for DAZ?  If so, do you actually possess the Stats for new customers brought in from G3 and Iray compared to new customers brought in previously from 3DL.  If not, then you are arguing preceptions vs actual sales, as you stated.  Just pointing out flaws in logic.  However, if you do work for DAZ and have access to their sales and customer data then that would be different.  

    I do sell products here, so I have my sales to guage what to make and what not to as well as PAs share information as well as what is selling. I've been selling for over 8 years and went through the iterations of Poser, 3delight (both the base and HSS), Gen4 characters right into the iterations of genesis being provided in this store. 

    The question now becomes do you sell to ask me that question? This is exactly what I spoke of when I said sales versus perseptions. It's tiring when people that don't like the information given try these tactics.

    However that fact still remains that Iray and Genesis 3 brought more new customers in and hence changed what's offered in the store. 

    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
  • LyamLyam Posts: 137
    Male-M3dia said:
    Lyam said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    Taozen said:
    Midnight_stories said:
    Taozen said:
    Mustakettu85 said:
    mjc1016 said:

    One of the things I briefly mentioned...OSL.  Almost all the Cycles shaders and Blender lights can have OSL versions...which means you can cook up a Cycles node network in OSL and port it to 3DL (no, not an easy process/for everyone...but doable and SHAREABLE).  That would mean access to the same type of  'physically' accurate lights as Iray uses, the same types of PBR materials and so on.

    Or if OSL isn't  really feasible...

    Supposing we filed a number of customer support requests asking if the implementation of the API required for OSL is in the works or not - how many do you think we'd need to really get a "yes or no" answer?

    Maybe if enough people tell them they won't buy any more DAZ stuff until they answer... wink 

    Edit: Neither if it's the wrong answer... devil

    We are driven by market simple as that ! if you want more 3DL stuff you have to get the market to go that way. So it's up to you guys not us. You have to use your dollars the right way or nothing will get done.

    Save

    Well in this case (as far as I understand) we're talking about an improvement of 3DL which might make some change their minds about it. 

     

    I think the main point that keeps getting missed that the influx of new uesers are here for the combination of Genesis 3 and Iray. A number of those have seen 3Delight and they weren't swayed by it, thus changing minds to the degree to make worth the effort would most likely not be worth it. This subject falls in the same vein as some of those other threads that get derailed because of the software wars that result because of it, where you're arguing perceptions vs actual sales.

    Do you work for DAZ?  If so, do you actually possess the Stats for new customers brought in from G3 and Iray compared to new customers brought in previously from 3DL.  If not, then you are arguing preceptions vs actual sales, as you stated.  Just pointing out flaws in logic.  However, if you do work for DAZ and have access to their sales and customer data then that would be different.  

    I do sell products here, so I have my sales to guage what to make and what not to as well as PAs share information as well as what is selling. I've been selling for over 8 years and went through the iterations of Poser, 3delight (both the base and HSS), Gen4 characters right into the iterations of genesis being provided in this store. 

    The question now becomes do you sell to ask me that question? This is exactly what I spoke of when I said sales versus perseptions. It's tiring when people that don't like the information given try these tactics.

    However that fact still remains that Iray and Genesis 3 brought more new customers in and hence changed what's offered in the store. 

    I don't have to sell to see a flaw in logic.  You posed the premise that people are arguing from perception and not real data.  While you are basically doing the same.  You take your own sales and use it to generalize the whole.  That is incorrect.  You can't even say for certain that Iray and G3 brought in more sales compared with if you had stayed with 3DL, because you simply don't have definitive data, even if it were true and it may be.  I find it tiring that people get an idea stuck in their minds and dismisses everyone else's point of view.  This is not tactics, it's just logic. 

  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310

     

     

    Lyam said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    Lyam said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    Taozen said:
    Midnight_stories said:
    Taozen said:
    Mustakettu85 said:
    mjc1016 said:

    One of the things I briefly mentioned...OSL.  Almost all the Cycles shaders and Blender lights can have OSL versions...which means you can cook up a Cycles node network in OSL and port it to 3DL (no, not an easy process/for everyone...but doable and SHAREABLE).  That would mean access to the same type of  'physically' accurate lights as Iray uses, the same types of PBR materials and so on.

    Or if OSL isn't  really feasible...

    Supposing we filed a number of customer support requests asking if the implementation of the API required for OSL is in the works or not - how many do you think we'd need to really get a "yes or no" answer?

    Maybe if enough people tell them they won't buy any more DAZ stuff until they answer... wink 

    Edit: Neither if it's the wrong answer... devil

    We are driven by market simple as that ! if you want more 3DL stuff you have to get the market to go that way. So it's up to you guys not us. You have to use your dollars the right way or nothing will get done.

    Save

    Well in this case (as far as I understand) we're talking about an improvement of 3DL which might make some change their minds about it. 

     

    I think the main point that keeps getting missed that the influx of new uesers are here for the combination of Genesis 3 and Iray. A number of those have seen 3Delight and they weren't swayed by it, thus changing minds to the degree to make worth the effort would most likely not be worth it. This subject falls in the same vein as some of those other threads that get derailed because of the software wars that result because of it, where you're arguing perceptions vs actual sales.

    Do you work for DAZ?  If so, do you actually possess the Stats for new customers brought in from G3 and Iray compared to new customers brought in previously from 3DL.  If not, then you are arguing preceptions vs actual sales, as you stated.  Just pointing out flaws in logic.  However, if you do work for DAZ and have access to their sales and customer data then that would be different.  

    I do sell products here, so I have my sales to guage what to make and what not to as well as PAs share information as well as what is selling. I've been selling for over 8 years and went through the iterations of Poser, 3delight (both the base and HSS), Gen4 characters right into the iterations of genesis being provided in this store. 

    The question now becomes do you sell to ask me that question? This is exactly what I spoke of when I said sales versus perseptions. It's tiring when people that don't like the information given try these tactics.

    However that fact still remains that Iray and Genesis 3 brought more new customers in and hence changed what's offered in the store. 

    I don't have to sell to see a flaw in logic.  You posed the premise that people are arguing from perception and not real data.  While you are basically doing the same.  You take your own sales and use it to generalize the whole.  That is incorrect.  You can't even say for certain that Iray and G3 brought in more sales compared with if you had stayed with 3DL, because you simply don't have definitive data, even if it were true and it may be.  I find it tiring that people get an idea stuck in their minds and dismisses everyone else's point of view.  This is not tactics, it's just logic. 

    But by that logic no one has, or can have, the real data, what you seem to be asking for is data from an alternate timeline where Daz stuck with 3delight and never switched to Iray at all.

     

     

  • LyamLyam Posts: 137
    j cade said:

     

     

    Lyam said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    Lyam said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    Taozen said:
    Midnight_stories said:
    Taozen said:
    Mustakettu85 said:
    mjc1016 said:

    One of the things I briefly mentioned...OSL.  Almost all the Cycles shaders and Blender lights can have OSL versions...which means you can cook up a Cycles node network in OSL and port it to 3DL (no, not an easy process/for everyone...but doable and SHAREABLE).  That would mean access to the same type of  'physically' accurate lights as Iray uses, the same types of PBR materials and so on.

    Or if OSL isn't  really feasible...

    Supposing we filed a number of customer support requests asking if the implementation of the API required for OSL is in the works or not - how many do you think we'd need to really get a "yes or no" answer?

    Maybe if enough people tell them they won't buy any more DAZ stuff until they answer... wink 

    Edit: Neither if it's the wrong answer... devil

    We are driven by market simple as that ! if you want more 3DL stuff you have to get the market to go that way. So it's up to you guys not us. You have to use your dollars the right way or nothing will get done.

    Save

    Well in this case (as far as I understand) we're talking about an improvement of 3DL which might make some change their minds about it. 

     

    I think the main point that keeps getting missed that the influx of new uesers are here for the combination of Genesis 3 and Iray. A number of those have seen 3Delight and they weren't swayed by it, thus changing minds to the degree to make worth the effort would most likely not be worth it. This subject falls in the same vein as some of those other threads that get derailed because of the software wars that result because of it, where you're arguing perceptions vs actual sales.

    Do you work for DAZ?  If so, do you actually possess the Stats for new customers brought in from G3 and Iray compared to new customers brought in previously from 3DL.  If not, then you are arguing preceptions vs actual sales, as you stated.  Just pointing out flaws in logic.  However, if you do work for DAZ and have access to their sales and customer data then that would be different.  

    I do sell products here, so I have my sales to guage what to make and what not to as well as PAs share information as well as what is selling. I've been selling for over 8 years and went through the iterations of Poser, 3delight (both the base and HSS), Gen4 characters right into the iterations of genesis being provided in this store. 

    The question now becomes do you sell to ask me that question? This is exactly what I spoke of when I said sales versus perseptions. It's tiring when people that don't like the information given try these tactics.

    However that fact still remains that Iray and Genesis 3 brought more new customers in and hence changed what's offered in the store. 

    I don't have to sell to see a flaw in logic.  You posed the premise that people are arguing from perception and not real data.  While you are basically doing the same.  You take your own sales and use it to generalize the whole.  That is incorrect.  You can't even say for certain that Iray and G3 brought in more sales compared with if you had stayed with 3DL, because you simply don't have definitive data, even if it were true and it may be.  I find it tiring that people get an idea stuck in their minds and dismisses everyone else's point of view.  This is not tactics, it's just logic. 

    But by that logic no one has, or can have, the real data, what you seem to be asking for is data from an alternate timeline where Daz stuck with 3delight and never switched to Iray at all.

     

     

    No that would be silly. I'm just asking that people's point of views not be dismissed so offhandedly.  I have a tendency to stick up for people.  Need to watch that.  Not really trying to be augmentative.  After all this is just a hobby for me, it makes no difference to me one way or the other. 

  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310
    wowie said:
    Taozen said:
    Edit: Neither if it's the wrong answer... devil

    If you get an answer. And 'forwarded to the dev team' isn't what i call a definitive answer. Short of a class action suit, I don't think they'll change anything related to 3delight. Much like Hexagon, Bryce and Carrara. They being DAZ in this case, not the vendors.

    Off topic.

    Anyone can get DS and iray to do something like this?

    http://lesterbanks.com/2016/11/3-billion-polygon-redshift/

    3 billion polys, two 980Ti in 6 minutes. Redshift is awesome.

    IDK, but 19billion polys or so. unbiased, under 10 minutes, my piddly laptop CPU only. Maybe we should all switch to Cycles?

     

    But the real answer is that counting instanced trees in your polycount can be a bit disingenuous ;) (also that instancing is the best thing ever, and I hope DS continues to improve its version)

     

     

     

     

    trees.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 576K
  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310
    edited December 2016
    Lyam said:
    j cade said:

     

     

    Lyam said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    Lyam said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    Taozen said:
    Midnight_stories said:
    Taozen said:
    Mustakettu85 said:
    mjc1016 said:

    One of the things I briefly mentioned...OSL.  Almost all the Cycles shaders and Blender lights can have OSL versions...which means you can cook up a Cycles node network in OSL and port it to 3DL (no, not an easy process/for everyone...but doable and SHAREABLE).  That would mean access to the same type of  'physically' accurate lights as Iray uses, the same types of PBR materials and so on.

    Or if OSL isn't  really feasible...

    Supposing we filed a number of customer support requests asking if the implementation of the API required for OSL is in the works or not - how many do you think we'd need to really get a "yes or no" answer?

    Maybe if enough people tell them they won't buy any more DAZ stuff until they answer... wink 

    Edit: Neither if it's the wrong answer... devil

    We are driven by market simple as that ! if you want more 3DL stuff you have to get the market to go that way. So it's up to you guys not us. You have to use your dollars the right way or nothing will get done.

    Save

    Well in this case (as far as I understand) we're talking about an improvement of 3DL which might make some change their minds about it. 

     

    I think the main point that keeps getting missed that the influx of new uesers are here for the combination of Genesis 3 and Iray. A number of those have seen 3Delight and they weren't swayed by it, thus changing minds to the degree to make worth the effort would most likely not be worth it. This subject falls in the same vein as some of those other threads that get derailed because of the software wars that result because of it, where you're arguing perceptions vs actual sales.

    Do you work for DAZ?  If so, do you actually possess the Stats for new customers brought in from G3 and Iray compared to new customers brought in previously from 3DL.  If not, then you are arguing preceptions vs actual sales, as you stated.  Just pointing out flaws in logic.  However, if you do work for DAZ and have access to their sales and customer data then that would be different.  

    I do sell products here, so I have my sales to guage what to make and what not to as well as PAs share information as well as what is selling. I've been selling for over 8 years and went through the iterations of Poser, 3delight (both the base and HSS), Gen4 characters right into the iterations of genesis being provided in this store. 

    The question now becomes do you sell to ask me that question? This is exactly what I spoke of when I said sales versus perseptions. It's tiring when people that don't like the information given try these tactics.

    However that fact still remains that Iray and Genesis 3 brought more new customers in and hence changed what's offered in the store. 

    I don't have to sell to see a flaw in logic.  You posed the premise that people are arguing from perception and not real data.  While you are basically doing the same.  You take your own sales and use it to generalize the whole.  That is incorrect.  You can't even say for certain that Iray and G3 brought in more sales compared with if you had stayed with 3DL, because you simply don't have definitive data, even if it were true and it may be.  I find it tiring that people get an idea stuck in their minds and dismisses everyone else's point of view.  This is not tactics, it's just logic. 

    But by that logic no one has, or can have, the real data, what you seem to be asking for is data from an alternate timeline where Daz stuck with 3delight and never switched to Iray at all.

     

     

    No that would be silly. I'm just asking that people's point of views not be dismissed so offhandedly.  I have a tendency to stick up for people.  Need to watch that.  Not really trying to be augmentative.  After all this is just a hobby for me, it makes no difference to me one way or the other. 

    Nothing wrong with sticking up for folks. Or being argumentative. It'd be quite disingenuous of me to complain on that front; I love a nice argument (provided it doesnt get shouty, and this debates been pretty even keeled I think)

     

    I definitely sympathise with folks thinking their render engine of choice is getting a bit left out in the rain. As someone who remembes the days when many things were poser mats only (and who exports and renders in cycles on occasion) I have some expirience of my render engine of choice not being catered to.

     

    On the other hand, I think both sides should appreciate the other sides point of view, as you said, this is a hobby for you, for some of the PAs here its not, its their souce of livelihood, asking them to gamble on that because hey they may not have all the data, is a pretty big request, to say the least.

    Post edited by j cade on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    j cade said:
     

    IDK, but 19billion polys or so. unbiased, under 10 minutes, my piddly laptop CPU only. Maybe we should all switch to Cycles?

    I've always wanted a better link between Studio and Blender....I could get behind an effort for using Cycles. (I've finally gotten good grasp on the Cycles node editor...)

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,584
    edited December 2016
    Lyam said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    Lyam said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    Taozen said:
    Midnight_stories said:
    Taozen said:
    Mustakettu85 said:
    mjc1016 said:

    One of the things I briefly mentioned...OSL.  Almost all the Cycles shaders and Blender lights can have OSL versions...which means you can cook up a Cycles node network in OSL and port it to 3DL (no, not an easy process/for everyone...but doable and SHAREABLE).  That would mean access to the same type of  'physically' accurate lights as Iray uses, the same types of PBR materials and so on.

    Or if OSL isn't  really feasible...

    Supposing we filed a number of customer support requests asking if the implementation of the API required for OSL is in the works or not - how many do you think we'd need to really get a "yes or no" answer?

    Maybe if enough people tell them they won't buy any more DAZ stuff until they answer... wink 

    Edit: Neither if it's the wrong answer... devil

    We are driven by market simple as that ! if you want more 3DL stuff you have to get the market to go that way. So it's up to you guys not us. You have to use your dollars the right way or nothing will get done.

    Save

    Well in this case (as far as I understand) we're talking about an improvement of 3DL which might make some change their minds about it. 

     

    I think the main point that keeps getting missed that the influx of new uesers are here for the combination of Genesis 3 and Iray. A number of those have seen 3Delight and they weren't swayed by it, thus changing minds to the degree to make worth the effort would most likely not be worth it. This subject falls in the same vein as some of those other threads that get derailed because of the software wars that result because of it, where you're arguing perceptions vs actual sales.

    Do you work for DAZ?  If so, do you actually possess the Stats for new customers brought in from G3 and Iray compared to new customers brought in previously from 3DL.  If not, then you are arguing preceptions vs actual sales, as you stated.  Just pointing out flaws in logic.  However, if you do work for DAZ and have access to their sales and customer data then that would be different.  

    I do sell products here, so I have my sales to guage what to make and what not to as well as PAs share information as well as what is selling. I've been selling for over 8 years and went through the iterations of Poser, 3delight (both the base and HSS), Gen4 characters right into the iterations of genesis being provided in this store. 

    The question now becomes do you sell to ask me that question? This is exactly what I spoke of when I said sales versus perseptions. It's tiring when people that don't like the information given try these tactics.

    However that fact still remains that Iray and Genesis 3 brought more new customers in and hence changed what's offered in the store. 

    I don't have to sell to see a flaw in logic.  You posed the premise that people are arguing from perception and not real data.  While you are basically doing the same.  You take your own sales and use it to generalize the whole.  That is incorrect.  You can't even say for certain that Iray and G3 brought in more sales compared with if you had stayed with 3DL, because you simply don't have definitive data, even if it were true and it may be.  I find it tiring that people get an idea stuck in their minds and dismisses everyone else's point of view.  This is not tactics, it's just logic. 

    But it is a flaw in logic because you have no information to base your arguments off of. I do, I can see when figures sell, what types of figures sell, when to put them on sale. Other PAs can tell you the same information. Basing assertions off of feelings or guesses isn't logic nor is countering the information I have based on items sold in the store over 8 years versus what you feel should be. Sorry.

    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
  • Stryder87Stryder87 Posts: 899
    Male-M3dia said:

    ... Poser, 3delight (both the base and HSS)...

    Just a side question...  What is this HSS version of 3Delight you refer to?  Is that what's in v4.9 now?  What is the difference?

     

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 107,929
    Stryder87 said:
    Male-M3dia said:

    ... Poser, 3delight (both the base and HSS)...

    Just a side question...  What is this HSS version of 3Delight you refer to?  Is that what's in v4.9 now?  What is the difference?

    He means shaders - the (Elite) Human Surface Shader was released as part of the Victoria 4 Elite morphs and textures, way back when, and offered consiferable enhancements over the default Daz Shader that had been used up to then. uberSurface is a further enhanced versions, both HSS and uberSurface are included with DS, as is the even newer Age of Armor SSS Shader that is used for most new 3Deoight skins at least.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,574

    Remember that even if you are not a PA, and have no access to any sales data, you only have to look in the "What's Hot" lists to see what is selling, and that is naturally Genesis 3 and iRay items,

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,085

    Of course people are buying Iray items more. For one thing, they have more visibility, novelty, and there's a 'business path formation' element.

    And for another, Daz just failed to support 3DL very well over the last few years. Of course people are going with the renderer that's actually getting attention.

     

    I don't blame any PA for seeing what's what and knowing that 3DL is just going to languish due to Daz' inattention.

     

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,929
    edited December 2016

    "I've always wanted a better link between Studio and Blender....I could get behind an effort for using Cycles. (I've finally gotten good grasp on the Cycles node editor...)"

    Hi Do you not find the MCJ teleblender script useful??
    particulary for stills??
    I find it quite handy as it automates the conversion of DS mats to cycles nodes.....not Iray Mats though!! which are obviously becoming more prevelent hence the discussion here.wink

    Post edited by wolf359 on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    Male-M3dia said:
    timmins.william said:

    And a point that keeps getting missed is that if Daz doesn't offer centralized support of 3DL and keeps not fixing bugs or letting it languish in a very archaic form, NO WONDER vendors and people are going to go with something else.

    That's not something people can patch over, that is a core decision to guess the market and not prioritize that development/work that can only realistically be done under Daz's aegis.

    Almost all the functions to make very realistic 3DL art are crippled by lack of support -- UE2 bounce lights? Incredibly slow for a number of versions, a fix is unlikely. AoA lights, not quite core but one way, at least, people can get faster results with 3DL and makes that a more attractive option, several functions are broken and unlikely to be fixed. Plus all the stuff like 'ray trace' being a buried option you have to figure out how to get working.

     

    I don't think they've missed that at all. Iray has brought new people in, and as I said, you're going to have a hard time convincing those people that 3delight is going to worth changing their investments back. 

    timmins.william said:

    I mean, I wonder how many customers have been lost when they try any large Iray scene and they don't realize it keeps dumping to CPU, and when they figure out they go 'what, I need a $1500 video card to render this stuff?' and simple quit because they believe they just can't make things work.

    I love the Mesozoic environment that just came out, for example, but I'm finding that trying to do it plus more than one figure pretty much WILL NOT run on my GPU. Luckily, I know I can do it in 3DL, but it'd be really awesome if, say, UE2 bounce lights worked decently (going to try to do it anyway, but... ugh).

    Actually it would seem that it's spurred more people to buy Nvidia cards rather than switch to 3DL.. the alternative would actually be dropping the program altogether. Once again I think people are arguing perceptions versus sales.

    I bought a Nvidia card, but I can use it for cycles too; my plan for my next upgrade is for a xeon system, unless AMDs stuff looks like the investment. Because quite simply, I'm not prepared to make the kind of investment that greedy (imo) nvidia want me to do. So I would love more investment in 3Delight; i love what folks can do with it, and I realise that I couldn't in part because of my skills and lack of knowledge, but also because the functionality either doesn't exist in Studio, or is hidden away and requires scripting knowledge I haven't got the time to learn.

  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310
    mjc1016 said:
    j cade said:
     

    IDK, but 19billion polys or so. unbiased, under 10 minutes, my piddly laptop CPU only. Maybe we should all switch to Cycles?

    I've always wanted a better link between Studio and Blender....I could get behind an effort for using Cycles. (I've finally gotten good grasp on the Cycles node editor...)

    I Love Cycles, And blender's node editor (its so much easier to use than shader mixer, so much easier)

    Honestly a lot of the component parts of some sort of DS-Blender bridge are out there. There is the cycles exporter by mcj, there's an addon for blender to read duf files (seriously, works great for props, not so great for figures though, blender doesnt handle bajillions of shapekeys the way DS knocks through morphs) there's even a duf exporter that supports instances! (ie you set up a particle system with objects in blender and it exports a duf with instanced objects, genius. Although this is another one of those cases where the programs different shortcomings come into play, the daz viewport is not nearly as good at handling masses of instances as blender, it pretty much starts to crawl in fact)

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    wolf359 said:

    "I've always wanted a better link between Studio and Blender....I could get behind an effort for using Cycles. (I've finally gotten good grasp on the Cycles node editor...)"

    Hi Do you not find the MCJ teleblender script useful??
    particulary for stills??
    I find it quite handy as it automates the conversion of DS mats to cycles nodes.....not Iray Mats though!! which are obviously becoming more prevelent hence the discussion here.wink

    Oh, it is useful...but since we are basically comparing 'buit in' to 'built in', it doesn't really count.  But it would be even more useful, if the OSL capabilities of 3DL were exposed in Studio...then there really wouldn't be Studio mats vs Cycles mats...

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    mjc1016 said:
    j cade said:
     

    IDK, but 19billion polys or so. unbiased, under 10 minutes, my piddly laptop CPU only. Maybe we should all switch to Cycles?

    I've always wanted a better link between Studio and Blender....I could get behind an effort for using Cycles. (I've finally gotten good grasp on the Cycles node editor...)

    Likewise, I love cycles. And it can use AMD cards too (although still under development last time I looked). Would have been a fairy split imo.

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,929

    "I Love Cycles, And blender's node editor (its so much easier to use than shader mixer, so much easier)

    Honestly a lot of the component parts of some sort of DS-Blender bridge are out there. There is the cycles exporter by mcj, there's an addon for blender to read duf files (seriously, works great for props, not so great for figures though,"

    I too have become a big fan of  blenders node based system
    it would be nice to see A direct integration such as this new one for the latest C4D.

  • Daywalker DesignsDaywalker Designs Posts: 3,586
    Lyam said:
    j cade said:

     

     

    Lyam said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    Lyam said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    Taozen said:
    Midnight_stories said:
    Taozen said:
    Mustakettu85 said:
    mjc1016 said:

    One of the things I briefly mentioned...OSL.  Almost all the Cycles shaders and Blender lights can have OSL versions...which means you can cook up a Cycles node network in OSL and port it to 3DL (no, not an easy process/for everyone...but doable and SHAREABLE).  That would mean access to the same type of  'physically' accurate lights as Iray uses, the same types of PBR materials and so on.

    Or if OSL isn't  really feasible...

    Supposing we filed a number of customer support requests asking if the implementation of the API required for OSL is in the works or not - how many do you think we'd need to really get a "yes or no" answer?

    Maybe if enough people tell them they won't buy any more DAZ stuff until they answer... wink 

    Edit: Neither if it's the wrong answer... devil

    We are driven by market simple as that ! if you want more 3DL stuff you have to get the market to go that way. So it's up to you guys not us. You have to use your dollars the right way or nothing will get done.

    Save

    Well in this case (as far as I understand) we're talking about an improvement of 3DL which might make some change their minds about it. 

     

    I think the main point that keeps getting missed that the influx of new uesers are here for the combination of Genesis 3 and Iray. A number of those have seen 3Delight and they weren't swayed by it, thus changing minds to the degree to make worth the effort would most likely not be worth it. This subject falls in the same vein as some of those other threads that get derailed because of the software wars that result because of it, where you're arguing perceptions vs actual sales.

    Do you work for DAZ?  If so, do you actually possess the Stats for new customers brought in from G3 and Iray compared to new customers brought in previously from 3DL.  If not, then you are arguing preceptions vs actual sales, as you stated.  Just pointing out flaws in logic.  However, if you do work for DAZ and have access to their sales and customer data then that would be different.  

    I do sell products here, so I have my sales to guage what to make and what not to as well as PAs share information as well as what is selling. I've been selling for over 8 years and went through the iterations of Poser, 3delight (both the base and HSS), Gen4 characters right into the iterations of genesis being provided in this store. 

    The question now becomes do you sell to ask me that question? This is exactly what I spoke of when I said sales versus perseptions. It's tiring when people that don't like the information given try these tactics.

    However that fact still remains that Iray and Genesis 3 brought more new customers in and hence changed what's offered in the store. 

    I don't have to sell to see a flaw in logic.  You posed the premise that people are arguing from perception and not real data.  While you are basically doing the same.  You take your own sales and use it to generalize the whole.  That is incorrect.  You can't even say for certain that Iray and G3 brought in more sales compared with if you had stayed with 3DL, because you simply don't have definitive data, even if it were true and it may be.  I find it tiring that people get an idea stuck in their minds and dismisses everyone else's point of view.  This is not tactics, it's just logic. 

    But by that logic no one has, or can have, the real data, what you seem to be asking for is data from an alternate timeline where Daz stuck with 3delight and never switched to Iray at all.

     

     

    No that would be silly. I'm just asking that people's point of views not be dismissed so offhandedly.  I have a tendency to stick up for people.  Need to watch that.  Not really trying to be augmentative.  After all this is just a hobby for me, it makes no difference to me one way or the other. 

    I don't think it's exactly a matter of other viewpoints being dismissed as such, but rather the evidence doesn't support the expectations of some folks. Those on the outside (buyers) feel that they are being ignored if their preferred render engine isn't being supported with shader presets because they think providing them with significantly increase product sales. Vendors that don't include them say, in their experience, not including them hasn't had significant impact on their product sales.

  • fastbike1fastbike1 Posts: 4,078

    So Daz' business decisions should be based on what Poser can do? Smith Micro isn't exactly a model for listening to customers. 

    kyoto kid said:

    ...basically divided it again as Poser users were the first to be left out.  Now the split will be within the Daz community itself.

     

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,584
    edited December 2016
    nicstt said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    timmins.william said:

    And a point that keeps getting missed is that if Daz doesn't offer centralized support of 3DL and keeps not fixing bugs or letting it languish in a very archaic form, NO WONDER vendors and people are going to go with something else.

    That's not something people can patch over, that is a core decision to guess the market and not prioritize that development/work that can only realistically be done under Daz's aegis.

    Almost all the functions to make very realistic 3DL art are crippled by lack of support -- UE2 bounce lights? Incredibly slow for a number of versions, a fix is unlikely. AoA lights, not quite core but one way, at least, people can get faster results with 3DL and makes that a more attractive option, several functions are broken and unlikely to be fixed. Plus all the stuff like 'ray trace' being a buried option you have to figure out how to get working.

     

    I don't think they've missed that at all. Iray has brought new people in, and as I said, you're going to have a hard time convincing those people that 3delight is going to worth changing their investments back. 

    timmins.william said:

    I mean, I wonder how many customers have been lost when they try any large Iray scene and they don't realize it keeps dumping to CPU, and when they figure out they go 'what, I need a $1500 video card to render this stuff?' and simple quit because they believe they just can't make things work.

    I love the Mesozoic environment that just came out, for example, but I'm finding that trying to do it plus more than one figure pretty much WILL NOT run on my GPU. Luckily, I know I can do it in 3DL, but it'd be really awesome if, say, UE2 bounce lights worked decently (going to try to do it anyway, but... ugh).

    Actually it would seem that it's spurred more people to buy Nvidia cards rather than switch to 3DL.. the alternative would actually be dropping the program altogether. Once again I think people are arguing perceptions versus sales.

    I bought a Nvidia card, but I can use it for cycles too; my plan for my next upgrade is for a xeon system, unless AMDs stuff looks like the investment. Because quite simply, I'm not prepared to make the kind of investment that greedy (imo) nvidia want me to do. So I would love more investment in 3Delight; i love what folks can do with it, and I realise that I couldn't in part because of my skills and lack of knowledge, but also because the functionality either doesn't exist in Studio, or is hidden away and requires scripting knowledge I haven't got the time to learn.

    I was upset with Nvidia for a while as I used to own a 3DFX video card that I only owned for 3 months before they were bought out and it was End of lifed with any OS newer than Windows 95. However I tried amd CPUs and GPUs and they aren't on par with floating point processing as they are with the Intel/Nvidia combo. You can save money with the amds but the performance still isn't there. I'll eventually invest in another GPU to replace my 580gtx as the main card and use my 980 (which I use for rendering) to replace that. I haven't had any issue with the cards so I can't complain about any greed. They've been solid and worth the money.

    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    j cade said:

    IDK, but 19billion polys or so. unbiased, under 10 minutes, my piddly laptop CPU only. Maybe we should all switch to Cycles?

    But the real answer is that counting instanced trees in your polycount can be a bit disingenuous ;) (also that instancing is the best thing ever, and I hope DS continues to improve its version)

    Out of topic. It's not just about the polys. I think you missed the point of the test Saul did. It was to push Redshift to go out of core. Saul wrote a comment in that article:

    "Redshift is very Impressive to say the least. It handled all the displacement/tessellation, proxies, high res textures well without going out of core. Even before optimization when I was going out of core it only added about 1-2min to the render which isn’t bad. Adding in render DOF/Motion Blur also had a similar increase in render times adding about 1-2min."

    Plus, it doesn't suck in indoor scene lit by external light scenarios. Kind of like 3delight (in Maya). smileyI do wish the RS devs hurry up and put support for raytraced SSS. 3delight has had fully raytraced SSS for years. Not the precompute stuff used in DS. Well, technically that isn't true, since Kettu shaders have brought raytraced SSS in DS 3delight for some time now.

    Cycles is still very slow for scenes like those, even with portals. And I don't really like the sum of gaussian approach to SSS they use.

    So, no answers to my original question? Guess not.

  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310
    edited December 2016
    wowie said:
    j cade said:

    IDK, but 19billion polys or so. unbiased, under 10 minutes, my piddly laptop CPU only. Maybe we should all switch to Cycles?

    But the real answer is that counting instanced trees in your polycount can be a bit disingenuous ;) (also that instancing is the best thing ever, and I hope DS continues to improve its version)

    Out of topic. It's not just about the polys. I think you missed the point of the test Saul did. It was to push Redshift to go out of core. Saul wrote a comment in that article:

    "Redshift is very Impressive to say the least. It handled all the displacement/tessellation, proxies, high res textures well without going out of core. Even before optimization when I was going out of core it only added about 1-2min to the render which isn’t bad. Adding in render DOF/Motion Blur also had a similar increase in render times adding about 1-2min."

    Plus, it doesn't suck in indoor scene lit by external light scenarios. Kind of like 3delight (in Maya). smileyI do wish the RS devs hurry up and put support for raytraced SSS. 3delight has had fully raytraced SSS for years. Not the precompute stuff used in DS. Well, technically that isn't true, since Kettu shaders have brought raytraced SSS in DS 3delight for some time now.

    Cycles is still very slow for scenes like those, even with portals. And I don't really like the sum of gaussian approach to SSS they use.

    So, no answers to my original question? Guess not.

    You don't think you're perhaps wiggling those goal posts a bit? you said

    Anyone can get DS and iray to do something like this?

    http://lesterbanks.com/2016/11/3-billion-polygon-redshift/

    3 billion polys, two 980Ti in 6 minutes. Redshift is awesome.

    Yes the article mentioned other elements. You specifically highlighted the 3 billion polys. I replied that, honestly, 3 billion polys isn't particularly impressive when those billions include instances (which they did in that test) And that Instances are at least as much feature of the modelling program than the render engine, which the article in question even mentioned (so the comparison there is as much Maya vs DS as Redshift vs Iray)

    DS isn't particularly good at handling loads of instances, its pretty bad actually. It doesn't matter if the render engine is Iray, Redshift, 3delight, Cycles, Renderman, or anything. The odds of anyone geting a render with 3 billion polys is pretty slim, because Studio cant handle it irrespective of render engine.

     

    But since I'm such a clever girl, heres about 5 million polys rendered in DS Iray Its rendered to 30 samples because I forgot to switch my samples limit back to default, and whilst Iray handled it all right, as it turns out Studio has difficulty with 80000 instances on my laptop with 8gb of memory, so studio was seizing up. (now blender on the other hand, 1000 particles each with 80 children all displayed? I can navigate that viewport)

    (side note perhaps someone pre familiar with instances+ or LAMHs instancing abilities can chime in here, do they handle higher numbers of particles better?)

    Also on cycles, because I didn't mention it, that tree scene also fits on my GPU easily, I just didn't use it because my gpu is even more underpowered than my cpu. 

     

    Plus, it doesn't suck in indoor scene lit by external light scenarios. Kind of like 3delight (in Maya). smiley

    Cycles is still very slow for scenes like those, even with portals. And I don't really like the sum of gaussian approach to SSS they use.

    I take it back, those goalposts are literally, figuratively running away right now.

    And you're a bit behind on cycles, the sss approximation they've been using for months now is christensen-burley, which I think you literally mentioned as liking earlier in this thread.

    millionsofpolyspoc.png
    700 x 1050 - 1M
    Post edited by j cade on
  • TaozTaoz Posts: 10,237
    timmins.william said:

    And a point that keeps getting missed is that if Daz doesn't offer centralized support of 3DL and keeps not fixing bugs or letting it languish in a very archaic form, NO WONDER vendors and people are going to go with something else.

    Exactly.

  • TaozTaoz Posts: 10,237
    edited December 2016

     

    Male-M3dia said:

    However that fact still remains that Iray and Genesis 3 brought more new customers in and hence changed what's offered in the store. 

    Well that's also a matter of perception - the perception of which renderer is the best. And that perception is being distorted by DAZ not supporting 3DL as well as they could.

     

    Post edited by Taoz on
  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,584
    edited December 2016
    Taozen said:

     

    Male-M3dia said:

    However that fact still remains that Iray and Genesis 3 brought more new customers in and hence changed what's offered in the store. 

    Well that's also a matter of perception - the perception of which renderer is the best. And that perception is being distorted by DAZ not supporting 3DL as well as they could.

     

    No supported by solid sales by customers, and can be easily shown by selecting the store hot lists. What is your argument based upon? Please explain.

    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
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