Has octane become over priced?

kyoto kid

StratDragon said:

If you don't own several hundred dollars worth of Nvida hardware (which in many cases is outperformed by similar priced AMD/ATI hardware) one could make the argument that maximizing performance ahead of Cuda is not all that cheap either. Otherwise the Cycles engine that Poser decided to go with is cross platform, LuxRender is cross platform and both are free and designed to work with what you have, not what you need to add.

...yeah I could have bopught a Sapphire Radeon R9 290 with 8 GB of memory a year ago for nearly 200$ less than a 6 GB 980TI. I also had dual HD 7950s with 3 GB ea (whch together were real power hogs as I had to add an auxillary PSU).

Lux is only free as long as you know how to work in it's materials language and send Daz scenes to it without the Reality or Luxus plugin.

At the time though Lux was having issues with their GPU mode (they totally abandoned Hybrid CPU/GPU rendering which was why I uninstalled the HD 7950s) and Firefly was still the main render engine bundled with Poser. 

Using Cycles outide of Poser means having to deal with Blender.

JCThomas

Octane is very reasonably priced in my opinion. I jumped on board before iray was included with DS, so I'm probbaly biased, but I strongly prefer it over iray. The clay mode is hugely important for me, and I haven't seen an equivalent in iray. Lucky for DS user, too, is that our Octane plugin is one of the most feature rich. It was a mess in the beginning, but OTOY sorted out some big problems (after far too long) by bringing in a new developer a while back. I use Octane every day, so I've gotten more than a fair return from it from use alone, regardless of how much (or little) I've made from the products it helps me produce. It's very fast, and it's direct lighting mode looks better to my eyes than the interactive draw mode in iray, which is the only iray mode that even nears its speed. There was a while when I was kicking myself for splurging on it, back in its 2.0 release when there was virtually no developer support, and that was right when iray came out. But Octane sorted through its issues and I can't imagine my workflow without anymore.

Angel

So I guess it really comes down to your skill level in 3D, patience, as well as funds avalible to spend and your overall goal with the program then, right?

Oso3D

For me, another factor is that photorealism is only one of my goals. So Iray is great because it's not my singular passion -- I do a lot of stuff quite happily in 3DL, and I'm frankly way more likely to make (small) money off of stylized art renderings than photorealistic ones.

So spending several hundred dollars and getting up to speed on a rendering engine that's radically different than what I've been using AND that my hardware might not handle well... enh.

 

I've played with the demo and it's almost completely unfamiliar to me. I'd feel more comfortable investing that time and energy into Blender, since at least that doesn't have a money cost, too.

 

Subtropic Pixel

timmins.william said:

I'd feel more comfortable investing that time and energy into Blender, since at least that doesn't have a money cost, too.

Amen to that.

Havos

My feeling is that my time is much more precious than the time of my computer.  So even if Octane rendered faster than iRay, if it ends up costing me extra time in having to set up its shaders, then I am not really interested. If I was doing video, where rendering can take many hours (or days), then a significant speed up would be worth my extra time preparing a scene, but I currently have no need for animations.

mjc1016

timmins.william said:

For me, another factor is that photorealism is only one of my goals. So Iray is great because it's not my singular passion -- I do a lot of stuff quite happily in 3DL, and I'm frankly way more likely to make (small) money off of stylized art renderings than photorealistic ones.

So spending several hundred dollars and getting up to speed on a rendering engine that's radically different than what I've been using AND that my hardware might not handle well... enh.

 

I've played with the demo and it's almost completely unfamiliar to me. I'd feel more comfortable investing that time and energy into Blender, since at least that doesn't have a money cost, too.

 

Um...especially if NPR/lineart/toon style are what you are looking for.  Blender has something that isn't really talked about much, but is probably one of the best NPR renderers built in...Freestyle.

https://www.blender.org/manual/en/render/freestyle/introduction.html#what-is-freestyle

Angel

Havos said:

My feeling is that my time is much more precious than the time of my computer.  So even if Octane rendered faster than iRay, if it ends up costing me extra time in having to set up its shaders, then I am not really interested. If I was doing video, where rendering can take many hours (or days), then a significant speed up would be worth my extra time preparing a scene, but I currently have no need for animations.

It shouldnt take that long. For starters. And I don't know about you but as for myself. I find that Iray has very bad surface variables. I spend way too much time in Iray messing with the surfaces.  I would rather spend that time in a render engine thats going to give me what's in my mind. Iray is all about buying shaders... It's almost like they made the Surfaces tab conflicting and confusing on purpose... The SSS Is laughable Volumetics.. I gave up on SSS in iray because its so rediculous. It's an extreamly important tab and it's the one tab that they royally jacked up... And with Octane. The price tag is my only complaint. Other then that. From what I've seen with my own eyes and what I've heard. Octane seems to be the overall victor for any serious artist.

linvanchene

Not much to add:

- It is the initial price of Octane that is now more expensive compared to version 1.

Upgrading from version to version is much more affordable with combo deals like 75$ for V2 to V3 upgrade for DAZ Studio plugin and the standalone.

- An alternative subscription model for OctaneRender targeted at students and hobby CG artists is stll scheduled to arrive in the near future.

- Otoy is actively developing and improving OctaneRender bringing new features every few months

- support to actually use AMD cards to render may still happen during the OctaneRender 3.1 release cycle

- support for Nvidia MDL Material Definition language may also still happen.

If scenes loaded in DS will then look exactly like in Iray remains to be seen and depends on the implementation. But there is hope for further improvement.

- - -

Side Notes:

@ e-on vue

Do not completly write off e-on vue. After it was taken over by Bentely  in 2015 now as positive news a  Hybrid GPU/CPU Interactive Path Tracer was announced:

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/news/blog/index.php?post/2016/09/14/VUE-2016-Leaks-1:-Interactive-Path-Tracer

@ compettion in the GPU rendering community

In any case the GPU rendering industry needs dedicated competition to Nvidia that is actively pushing GPU rendering.

I start to get the impression that Nvidia has shifted much of its focus to  artificial intelligence, deep learning and its application in self driving cards. 

The GPU rendering department may not have recevied as much attention as it could have.

 

wolf359

Subtropic Pixel said:

timmins.william said:

I'd feel more comfortable investing that time and energy into Blender, since at least that doesn't have a money cost, too.

Amen to that.

I agree totally the mcjtleblender script is an excellent free scene converter 
for cycle particulary for those who only render stills
I recently made the permanent Migration from 4.7 to 4.8
where I shall remain.
I did many experiments with IRay just for my own educational purposes
but I have no nividia card and am not in a position to make in hardware upgrades atm.
Additionall cycles is wayy more friendly  to lower spec non GPU capable hardware .o when I do need the  rare,occasional PBR still Blender cycles will still be my go to solution.

Also there is a free"Smart IBL"  stand alone app for management & one click loading of IBL light sets into blender.
http://www.hdrlabs.com/news/index.php?id=2469256454757487858

nicstt

Angel - Wings said:

So I guess it really comes down to your skill level in 3D, patience, as well as funds avalible to spend and your overall goal with the program then, right?

As always skills and ability matter.

I'm not saying that Octane isn't better, only that skills and ability matter more. A professional has to learn them, and has to spend the time to familiarise with new tools they consider worthwhile; hobbiests, don't have the same time to commit, which is always the most underrated resource, as folks will say no time, when they may actually mean, "I'd rather spend my time on something else." When it's a hobby, no justification is required. The professional doesn't quite have the same luxury.

nelsonsmith

If from a professional standpoint the tools you use are doing the job, and you're comfortable working with them, then you can't say they're overpriced.

Sounds like you really want to make the move to Octane, and enough people have given  the pros and cons, as well as their subective opinions.  Many times it is impossible to say when it comes to software what is the better package, because it all comes down to what the individual artist needs it for as well as how they are utilizing it.   People who try and definitively say X is better than Y are just  . . . let's be nice and use the term biased.   

If you feel Octane is going to get you to the next level, bite the bullet and buy it without regrets.  It's good software and it can do the job.  By the time it pays for itself you'll probably be eyeing the next advancement in technology,  although I hope you're not that kind of artist who constantly chases the tech.   That's a suckers game. Find something that works and does what you need, MASTER it, and only move up when that tool can no longer do what you require it to do and there is a substitute that can.

Angel

nelsonsmith said:

If from a professional standpoint the tools you use are doing the job, and you're comfortable working with them, then you can't say they're overpriced.

Sounds like you really want to make the move to Octane, and enough people have given  the pros and cons, as well as their subective opinions.  Many times it is impossible to say when it comes to software what is the better package, because it all comes down to what the individual artist needs it for as well as how they are utilizing it.   People who try and definitively say X is better than Y are just  . . . let's be nice and use the term biased.   

If you feel Octane is going to get you to the next level, bite the bullet and buy it without regrets.  It's good software and it can do the job.  By the time it pays for itself you'll probably be eyeing the next advancement in technology,  although I hope you're not that kind of artist who constantly chases the tech.   That's a suckers game. Find something that works and does what you need, MASTER it, and only move up when that tool can no longer do what you require it to do and there is a substitute that can.

Pretty much why I've decided to get it. I've ran out of ways to improve my work in iray... At least for my style of rendering. I want to learn something  new and fresh and fun and something that will take me a year or two to get good at. I learned iray in about a year. While iray has some up's and downs.. The biggest down for me, is the skin. It's so... Dull, flat, and generic looking when contrasted to the rest of the enviorment. You HAVE to use HDRI's to get skin tto look even half way decent. That's unacceptable....

DustRider

nicstt said:

DustRider said:

FSMCDesigns said:

Octane is only expensive to those that are used to hobbyists software and the cheaper prices in this community. If you want to put things into perspective, look up the price of Vray, Maxwell or even Indigo 3.

+1

Octane is designed for the professional market, and in that market, the price is quite reasonable. It is a bit pricey for the amateur/hobby market, but that is not Otoy's market base. But there seem to be a number of people here who spend $100-$200 (or more) a month on content for DS, and $600- $1,000++++ on graphics cards for Iray. For those people Octane could be easily affordable. Octane is designed for a production environment, and is actively bringing innovation to it's products, and trying to support new tech ASAP. For example, Octane has had support for 10xx/pascal cards for what, 2-3 months (??), Iray still doesn't support them (yet both are Nvidia products). Octane also supports out of core textures so large scenes can still be rendered via the GPU, with Iray large scenes dump to the CPU.

I'm not slamming Iray, it's a great addition to DS and I use it a lot. But having access to both, Octane just seems more feature rich, polished, and "professional". I got Octane before Iray was integrated into DS. Would I buy it now that DS has Iray? Yes, mainly because of the Carrara plugin, if I only used DS, possibly not. Do I find it a valuable addition to my 3D "toolkit"? Definitely!

The image below was done with the Octane for Carrara plugin. I had to do the usual work on the materials when brining DS content into Carrara (bump/normal maps are almost always lost, and a few other areas always need adjusting), but once the Carrara materials are setup properly, the Octane plugin translates them extremely well. I easily had less than 30 min. doing Octane specific adjustments (probably lees than 10 min.) except for the outfit on the figure on the left, which I created a lot of my own material/shaders for. and edited the default setting on the others a lot (I've used this particular set in DS/Reality/LUX, DS/Iray, DS/Octane, and Carrara/Octane, and it always needs extensive materials/shader work to get the most out of it as it uses a lot of Firefly/3Delight "cheats"). But, it would have easily taken just as long or longer using DS/Iray to make the material/shader adjustments (I seldom use the default materials/shaders regardless of render engine used).

Gallery Link

Please zoom to full resolution to see all the details!

Fantastic image; one aspect added believability, your figures were posed to interact with the blocks; a surprising number of promo renders they are hovering, or not properly reacting to where they are.

So yeh, Octane may have done its part, but your work beforehand added more imo.

Tools are great, but as ever, its down to the user to (well) use them to the best of their ability.

I see lots of professional level IRAY renders; sadly not all of them are promos for products. But the standard of promos is continueing to improve. IRAY has been with us over a year, how long has Octane been with us?

 

+1 and Thanks!!! 

Scene setup and posing took a lot of time, especially the posing to get things "right". Could have been better, but I usually have limited time for doing the Carrara challenges.

Octane Render v1.0 was released ~ Nov. 26, 2012, Nvidia Iray 1.0 was released ~ Dec. 6 2012 (date of v1.0 documentation). So they have been around for about the same amount of time. Due to several problems with development we didn't have a non-beta version of the DS Plugin for Octane until after the full release of Iray in DS (problems with the independent developer(s), the current developer that brought it out of beta also did the Poser plugin and at least one other plugin). Even though the Octane beta was "in development" longer than Iray, I'd say that they have been "around" about the same amount of time (most of the beta time with Octane had a very unstable and hard to use product - the current version is quite stable). So, Nvidia and Otoy have had the same amount of development time for Iray and Octane, but Otoy has been on a much more aggressive development schedule, thus the more feature rich product (no doubt because it is Otoy's primary business, not a side business like Nvidia/Iray).

I think the cost of Octane tends to be a self selecting user filter. Most of the users will be people who are willing to invest the time needed to get the results they want/expect from Octane. Iray is free with DS, and if responses in the forums are any indication, many users of DS/Iray never edit their mats/shaders, and they want to be able to kick out a render in 30 min. to an hour (start to finish). In comparison, for the posted image I have probably 5-6 hrs. invested in just posing and scene set up (posing all those fingers takes time),

Iray is definitely a very capable product, I use it a lot, and the direct integration into DS makes it easier to use than Octane. The OctaneRender Viewport is much more responsive and refreshes from scene changes much faster than Iray. This makes mat/shader and light tweaking much faster and enjoyable thna with Iray. However, for the vast majority of DS users I would not recommend Octane unless you need/want some of it's features that Iray doesn't have. But for those who want/need those features, or who want to be able to use the same render engine in DS and Carrara (or DS and Poser, or any of the 19 supported programs), Octane is a great product at a decent price.

DustRider

nelsonsmith said:

DustRider said:

FSMCDesigns said:

Octane is only expensive to those that are used to hobbyists software and the cheaper prices in this community. If you want to put things into perspective, look up the price of Vray, Maxwell or even Indigo 3.

+1

Octane is designed for the professional market, and in that market, the price is quite reasonable. It is a bit pricey for the amateur/hobby market, but that is not Otoy's market base. But there seem to be a number of people here who spend $100-$200 (or more) a month on content for DS, and $600- $1,000++++ on graphics cards for Iray. For those people Octane could be easily affordable. Octane is designed for a production environment, and is actively bringing innovation to it's products, and trying to support new tech ASAP. For example, Octane has had support for 10xx/pascal cards for what, 2-3 months (??), Iray still doesn't support them (yet both are Nvidia products). Octane also supports out of core textures so large scenes can still be rendered via the GPU, with Iray large scenes dump to the CPU.

I'm not slamming Iray, it's a great addition to DS and I use it a lot. But having access to both, Octane just seems more feature rich, polished, and "professional". I got Octane before Iray was integrated into DS. Would I buy it now that DS has Iray? Yes, mainly because of the Carrara plugin, if I only used DS, possibly not. Do I find it a valuable addition to my 3D "toolkit"? Definitely!

The image below was done with the Octane for Carrara plugin. I had to do the usual work on the materials when brining DS content into Carrara (bump/normal maps are almost always lost, and a few other areas always need adjusting), but once the Carrara materials are setup properly, the Octane plugin translates them extremely well. I easily had less than 30 min. doing Octane specific adjustments (probably lees than 10 min.) except for the outfit on the figure on the left, which I created a lot of my own material/shaders for. and edited the default setting on the others a lot (I've used this particular set in DS/Reality/LUX, DS/Iray, DS/Octane, and Carrara/Octane, and it always needs extensive materials/shader work to get the most out of it as it uses a lot of Firefly/3Delight "cheats"). But, it would have easily taken just as long or longer using DS/Iray to make the material/shader adjustments (I seldom use the default materials/shaders regardless of render engine used).

Gallery Link

Please zoom to full resolution to see all the details!

Dude, you do absolutely sweet work.  

But as another commenter said,  I believe the primary reason your work looks as good as it does is you have mastered your craft, and not that   the tools you use are doing the heavy lifting.  It's like all those guys who bought RED 4K cameras because they could afford one and David Fincher uses the RED, but nothing they do looks like David Fincher's work.  They've got the same tools, but they don't have Fincher's DP behind the camera.

At best your work is a great motivator for what one can achieve when they have the tools and the SKILLS, but between the two,  skill and experience counts the most.  You have to put in the work to learn this stuff, and a lot of it is learned without even sitting in front of a monitor.

Wow, thanks alot!!

+1

Learning the proper skills are definitelly a must (some day I may get there - but doubtful). DAZ and the PA's make it so easy to get OK results doing just load, pose, render that many users don't put much effort into their renders. Which is OK if that is all they want to do, but without some effort, they wont get past the "Poser Render" stigma the has been talked about so much.

Bobvan

Personally I am glad iray came along. I was a reality / lux user for a long time. Now that I have gotten to get iray to more or less reproduce what I was doing with Reality lux. I don't need to put up with that sub par buggy program any longer...

kyoto kid

...so far here is the best I can getwith skin in Iray using Beautriful skins for Iray as a starting point without a tonne of nit picky minute adjustments of the different channels.  No SSS as this is in Daz 4.8.

Pic uses Mec4D's HDRI for the ambient and a single photoletric spotlight at neutral value amd temperature with a 20% softness factor to the shadows and a simple photo studio backdrop..

 

Gator

Angel - Wings said:

nelsonsmith said:

If from a professional standpoint the tools you use are doing the job, and you're comfortable working with them, then you can't say they're overpriced.

Sounds like you really want to make the move to Octane, and enough people have given  the pros and cons, as well as their subective opinions.  Many times it is impossible to say when it comes to software what is the better package, because it all comes down to what the individual artist needs it for as well as how they are utilizing it.   People who try and definitively say X is better than Y are just  . . . let's be nice and use the term biased.   

If you feel Octane is going to get you to the next level, bite the bullet and buy it without regrets.  It's good software and it can do the job.  By the time it pays for itself you'll probably be eyeing the next advancement in technology,  although I hope you're not that kind of artist who constantly chases the tech.   That's a suckers game. Find something that works and does what you need, MASTER it, and only move up when that tool can no longer do what you require it to do and there is a substitute that can.

Pretty much why I've decided to get it. I've ran out of ways to improve my work in iray... At least for my style of rendering. I want to learn something  new and fresh and fun and something that will take me a year or two to get good at. I learned iray in about a year. While iray has some up's and downs.. The biggest down for me, is the skin. It's so... Dull, flat, and generic looking when contrasted to the rest of the enviorment. You HAVE to use HDRI's to get skin tto look even half way decent. That's unacceptable....

THer

Angel - Wings said:

nelsonsmith said:

If from a professional standpoint the tools you use are doing the job, and you're comfortable working with them, then you can't say they're overpriced.

Sounds like you really want to make the move to Octane, and enough people have given  the pros and cons, as well as their subective opinions.  Many times it is impossible to say when it comes to software what is the better package, because it all comes down to what the individual artist needs it for as well as how they are utilizing it.   People who try and definitively say X is better than Y are just  . . . let's be nice and use the term biased.   

If you feel Octane is going to get you to the next level, bite the bullet and buy it without regrets.  It's good software and it can do the job.  By the time it pays for itself you'll probably be eyeing the next advancement in technology,  although I hope you're not that kind of artist who constantly chases the tech.   That's a suckers game. Find something that works and does what you need, MASTER it, and only move up when that tool can no longer do what you require it to do and there is a substitute that can.

Pretty much why I've decided to get it. I've ran out of ways to improve my work in iray... At least for my style of rendering. I want to learn something  new and fresh and fun and something that will take me a year or two to get good at. I learned iray in about a year. While iray has some up's and downs.. The biggest down for me, is the skin. It's so... Dull, flat, and generic looking when contrasted to the rest of the enviorment. You HAVE to use HDRI's to get skin tto look even half way decent. That's unacceptable....

I don't think you'll be happy if that's your reason.  I've seen great looking skin renders from both Iray and Octane.  There are great looking shaders available for Octane, and they cost extra too.  Keep that in mind for your decision.  I like RedSpec's.

You can edit the SSS shaders for Octane, but if Iray SSS is too daunting, forget about Octane's. 

 

Gator

Angel - Wings said:

scott762_948aec318a said:

Angel - Wings said:

Well besides wanting to take my rendering to the next level... I do plan on finding people who would be willing to hire me to do Comics for them. I can meet deadlines in a snaz with Octane. I mean, sure, for rendering its going to be fun but this is more/less a busniess investment for Comics, and/or Promo renders for things I plan to sell in the future. Thing is. I have Reality 4. Which is slightly more physically accurate then Octane. If I wanted true realism. Reality 4 is the thifty shoppers best option. But with what I want out of it. Animations, and Comics. I do want something with a bit more speed. I mean I said I don't care for the speed and that's not what I got it for. I'll correct myself and say... Not for my own personal art. I can care less for insta render. :P But from a busniess standpoint. I think it's a must have...

 

If anyone reads this and is interested in my busniess. Please don't be shy to shoot me a PM.

Not to burst your bubble, but I was an Octane & Poser user.  The workflow was MUCH slower, as many have said you have to edit the materials.  The maps come over, but shader values don't.  Maybe with comics this won't be too bad, as once you convert the materials over on a set most of the work is done.

Octane really isn't much faster with comparible quality settings, but it supports network rendering.

Long story short, faster will depend on your workflow and setup.

I guess if you are the load and go type artist.. This is true. As for myself I'm used to adjusting every nook n cranny of the surfaces anyways. This wont be an issue with me as I've been toying with surfaces since 3DL. For myself, that is part of the fun of 3D is pushing the limits of the shaders and seeing what it's capable of. I only have maybe 20 renders that were totally stock shaders .

 

Also, *your bubble, but*

================

Quote tree jacked up

================

I never mentioned "load and go."  I'm trying to point out from a previous post of cranking out comics faster. 

If you're constantly using different scenes, props, clothing items, etc. you'll find that having to work the shaders for almost every thing is a lot of extra work AND TAKES TIME.  I've spent days setting up the shaders on a set, to tune up a few things later that I missed.  But, I think Studio's interface identifying materials is probably better than Poser, so there's some benefit there over my experience. 

 

You missed the point.  In summary:

If you aren't changing up scenes, props, clothing, etc. frequently then you may find it faster overall for you.

If you are changing up scenes, props, clothing, etc. frequently then you may likely find it slower overall for you.