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What I don't like about iRay

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  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310

    I'm more of a Sviatoslav Richter fan, Horowitz didn't plat a lot of Shostakovitch

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    Hera said:
    j cade said:
    Hera said:

    What I'd really love to have is a colour sheme for the lights, now to get a coloured light you have to trial and error with luminiscense and temperarure and you have no idea about what you're doing. If you're turning something bluer or redder, brighter or duller. Or what happens to the shadows.

    Just something like a RBG-scheme would be wonderful to have. Now, if you want an orange light you have to pull those pulleys up and down until you get somewhere near. And be content with pale ginger. But you can never have that perfect, saturated pumpkin light in iRay as in 3Dlight. And green light - forget it! And I so lack the ability to change direction of the light, to for instance having something lit from behind.

    But I guess that's just me, I'm more for ambiences and emotions than daylight realism.

     

    You can do all this in Iray. just move the light and set the light tint the same as you would in 3delight.

    The thing is I don't know how to set a tint, because the colour numbering is not the same as the RGB scheme. luminiscense / temperature is something entirely different which secret I have yet to uncover.

    Here's a chart with some common color temperatures...

    http://planetpixelemporium.com/tutorialpages/light.html

    There are a number of other such charts around.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,573

    Interesting, it explains why when I add an Emissive shader using the standard DS shader presets, the temperature loads in at 2900K, which is a 100W Tungsten, which makes the whole scene an orange colour. Might explain why some people are complaining that a lot of iRay pics they have seen look orange tinted, could be the artists that did it just used the default shaders to set up the lights.

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    Havos said:

    Interesting, it explains why when I add an Emissive shader using the standard DS shader presets, the temperature loads in at 2900K, which is a 100W Tungsten, which makes the whole scene an orange colour. Might explain why some people are complaining that a lot of iRay pics they have seen look orange tinted, could be the artists that did it just used the default shaders to set up the lights.

    The default G3F type characters all use a grey subsurface texture with a really deep red colour. Having translucency set to high (or even medium) makes the whole skin colour go that deep orangey colour (probably from the reddy-brown mixing with the pink of the diffuse skin texture.) You just need to drop the translucency weight on the skin or play with the colour of the translucency layer (you can get a lot of different and often unexpected results from this, so my go to at the moment is just ditching most of the translucency.)

  • InaneGloryInaneGlory Posts: 294
    Havos said:

    Interesting, it explains why when I add an Emissive shader using the standard DS shader presets, the temperature loads in at 2900K, which is a 100W Tungsten, which makes the whole scene an orange colour. Might explain why some people are complaining that a lot of iRay pics they have seen look orange tinted, could be the artists that did it just used the default shaders to set up the lights.

    Yes that is a horible flaw in the Iray Emissive preset. I wish they would fix it. But at the same time you don't really need a preset. Any surface that has the Uber Iray base applied is ready to be an emissive without appling any presets. Simply turn the Emissive color to something else other than black and you've got an emissive material that defaults to 6500k instead of 2900k. It's really dim at it's default intensity (Luminance) but it is all ready to go.

  • Nyghtfall3DNyghtfall3D Posts: 812

    Just saw this on my DA Watch list.  It's a visual tutorial on how to understand the Iray Uber Base shader:

    http://dordiales.deviantart.com/art/Tutorial-Iray-578591695

  • InaneGloryInaneGlory Posts: 294
    mjc1016 said:
    Hera said:
    j cade said:
    Hera said:

    What I'd really love to have is a colour sheme for the lights, now to get a coloured light you have to trial and error with luminiscense and temperarure and you have no idea about what you're doing. If you're turning something bluer or redder, brighter or duller. Or what happens to the shadows.

    Just something like a RBG-scheme would be wonderful to have. Now, if you want an orange light you have to pull those pulleys up and down until you get somewhere near. And be content with pale ginger. But you can never have that perfect, saturated pumpkin light in iRay as in 3Dlight. And green light - forget it! And I so lack the ability to change direction of the light, to for instance having something lit from behind.

    But I guess that's just me, I'm more for ambiences and emotions than daylight realism.

     

    You can do all this in Iray. just move the light and set the light tint the same as you would in 3delight.

    The thing is I don't know how to set a tint, because the colour numbering is not the same as the RGB scheme. luminiscense / temperature is something entirely different which secret I have yet to uncover.

    Here's a chart with some common color temperatures...

    http://planetpixelemporium.com/tutorialpages/light.html

    There are a number of other such charts around.

    That's a great link with lots of info that helps explain color temps. There is only one problem with it: Iray uses a different temp as it's white point (255,255,255) than just about any resource you are ever going to find on the internet. In the real world the white point is about 5900K but most people round that off to 6000K but some charts will show it as 5500K. Daz Studio/Iray's white point is set to 6500K. Why the difference? 6500K is the universal white point of your monitor's color profile making just about every chart your going to find off when applied to lights in Iray (everything will be tinted a bit more red than is should be. It's still a great resource that people should definately read but take the given RGB values with a grain of salt.

    Generally, while adjusting the color temps and white point can help add that extra dimension to you scene I highly recommend people set (or leave) the color temps of their lights at 6500K and leave the white point at pure white until they get a good grasp on what they are doing with their lights in the 1st place. Don't add another whole layer of complication on top of everything else if you don't have to.

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 17,704

    My thoughts on iray:

    • I don't find it easy to light interiors using Iray especially with figures.
    • Complex scenes take longer to render than it does in 3delight.
    • IRay shines with portraits and single character renders
    • 3delight works better for me as a base for photoshoping than iray does. It is easier to get a fantasy style render in 3deight for me than iray.
    • I find many renders done in iray have an amber quality. It is almost like a sepia tone filter has been applied.

     

     

     

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715

    What I don't like about iRay

    It comes with free software that somehow manages to cost a lot of money? surprise

     

    timmins.william said:

    (Even if you don't like classical music, do yourself a favor and go and turn off the sound and skip to minute 3 or so and just watch his HANDS. Like spastic spiders)

     

    Indeed

    I use cycles in blender and manage to create shaders with their nodes; IRAY's make my eyes bleed for some reason.

  • RuphussRuphuss Posts: 2,631
    Tobor said:
    timmins.william said:

    It's a lot easier to get a basically realistic, cool looking render in Iray. Buuuut... it can be easy to be lulled into complacency and then go 'wait, how did they do THAT render??' Because there's a looooot of learning and talent between playing chopsticks and playing like Vladimir Horowitz (best pianist evar).

    This is a good point. Iray is specifically for "push button" rendering, intentionally designed so there are few controls.

    Pixar's movies, considered some of the best examples of modern animation, uses a biased renderer, same as 3Delight is biased. There are reasons for using this type or renderer, but Pixar has a veritable army of CG experts who live, breathe, and eat the math involved in making their scenes look good. Even a biased renderer can produce a 100% realistic scene, but it's 1000x harder.

     

    which pixar movie looks good ?

  • Ghosty12Ghosty12 Posts: 2,080

    I use 3DL main because the work I do does not require the image to look realistic, that and well after a nasty run in with Iray I doubt I will ever use it again..

    Here is a link to a 3Delight Wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3Delight and a list of movies using 3Delight..

    Film credits

    3Delight has been used for visual effects work on many films. Some notable examples are:

    It was also used to render the following full CG features:

    And here is a link on one persons views of both 3Delight and Iray for animations http://www.versluis.com/2015/04/comparison-3delight-vs-nvidia-iray-for-animations/ interesting reading.

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996

    I'm so confused. It seems like everyone is trying to argue that 3DL isn't quite dead yet, or something. But no one's suggesting it doesn't have many good uses, so I'm not really sure who you're trying to convince.

  • brainmuffinbrainmuffin Posts: 1,267
    Angel - Wings said:
    timmins.william said:

    Mind you, I find Daz's lack of anything approaching reasonable documentation to be a major 'cost' of using DS.

     

    Agree.

    I can't count how many times I was lost with uberenviorment 2.1 and had to learn by trial and error because nothing was properly documented. The only thing I learned from the documents is that occlusion samples make it look nicer. lol...

    I'm glad I wasn't the only one lost when trying to use Uberenvironment.

  • Ghosty12Ghosty12 Posts: 2,080
    lx said:

    I'm so confused. It seems like everyone is trying to argue that 3DL isn't quite dead yet, or something. But no one's suggesting it doesn't have many good uses, so I'm not really sure who you're trying to convince.

    I suppose it is to do with that more and more of the store items being released are catering only for Iray..

    http://www.daz3d.com/starfighter-jet ; Iray Only by the looks.

    http://www.daz3d.com/heavy-assault-mech-zeus-m1 Seems to be Iray Only.

    http://www.daz3d.com/something-wicked-for-genesis-3-female-s another Iray Only item by the looks of it and even the texture addons seem to be Iray Only.

    http://www.daz3d.com/abandoned-district only mentions Iray presets.

    http://www.daz3d.com/i13-spa-and-lounge-environment-with-poses is aimed at Iray only though people have be able to use it in 3DL.

    http://www.daz3d.com/collective3d-movie-sets-derelict-victorian-dining-room and the PA for this has said that it is aimed at Iray Only.

     

    So yes when you see the above and others not mentioning 3DL but they do mention Iray then you begin to wonder..

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,573

    Very few products are iRay only, but they may only contain iRay shaders. Whether the time needed to set the shaders to 3DL (which in many cases will only take a few mins) is too long to make it not worth the hassle to purchase is up to each individual buyer. Many older products have Poser shaders only, but that would not stop me buying them for use in iRay or 3DL. In the same way I am happy to use a product with 3DL shader's only in iRay.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 2015
    Havos said:

    Very few products are iRay only, but they may only contain iRay shaders. Whether the time needed to set the shaders to 3DL (which in many cases will only take a few mins) is too long to make it not worth the hassle to purchase is up to each individual buyer. Many older products have Poser shaders only, but that would not stop me buying them for use in iRay or 3DL. In the same way I am happy to use a product with 3DL shader's only in iRay.

    As long as the Poser item isn't a 'Cloth Room' or 'Hair Room' only item (even if it is all Poser procedural shaders), it's usable (and even some Poser dynamic clothes can be made usable...no they won't have much in the way of morphs, but they can be rigged).

    About the only things that are truly renderer specific are shader/shader presets.

    ========

    Also, earlier, up thread, someone mentioned something about the 'orange/amber' cast to the lighting.  That's easily fixable...change the whitepoint.  The color temperature of many of the default lights is actually too low.  Iray is using a 6500K whitepoint, lower color temperature lights will be yellow to red.

    In a digital camera, it's usually an automatic setting...white balance.

    Post edited by mjc1016 on
  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996

    Yeah by far the majority of the products in my library don't come with Iray shaders, but I have no real issue converting things.

    I have seen PAs saying that it's jsut too much work to get matching results with 3DL shaders compared to Iray - so the issue would be more the focus on realism vs stylised renders, I guess? Iray isn't designed to do stylised and 3DL isn't really designed for real world rendering (of course you can still do either with both.)

  • ToborTobor Posts: 2,300

    You should not be in the habit of simply turning on the emissive channel to make just any old Iray shader self-illuminate. There are many shader settings that are in direct conflict with emissive properties. The shader may work, but is likely not efficient or optimal. 

    By starting with the Iray Emissive shader, all the counter-productive settings are turned off. If the color temperature isn't right, it's a lot easier to change just this than to look through the list and return the unnecessary settings to their defaults. Or you can simply create your own version of the shader with the Color Temperature of your choice. For that matter, you can dial Color Temperature to 0, and then the color of the light is dependent only on the Emission Color node.

  • Ghosty12Ghosty12 Posts: 2,080
    edited December 2015
    Havos said:

    Very few products are iRay only, but they may only contain iRay shaders. Whether the time needed to set the shaders to 3DL (which in many cases will only take a few mins) is too long to make it not worth the hassle to purchase is up to each individual buyer. Many older products have Poser shaders only, but that would not stop me buying them for use in iRay or 3DL. In the same way I am happy to use a product with 3DL shader's only in iRay.

    I suppose, but the one thing I have seen from others in these forums ask is that if the product can be used in both renderers why not have at least one image showing what the product looks like in the other renderer.. I mean I have seen other vendor products from other sites who make their products for both Poser and Studio do go to the trouble of showing what their product looks like in both programs.. 

    And some even go to the bother of creating two separate versions of their product, so if they can do so why does it seem to be so much of a hassle here? I mean is it really that much of a hassle to have at least one render showing what their product looks like in both 3DL and Iray..

    Post edited by Ghosty12 on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    ghosty12 said:
     

    And some even go to the bother of creating two separate versions of their product, so if they can do so why does it seem to be so much of a hassle here? I mean is it really that much of a hassle to have at least one render showing what their product looks like in both 3DL and Iray..

    It's been said before, by PAs, that it is more of what will be accepted for the promo renders than anything else...

  • kaotkblisskaotkbliss Posts: 2,914

    I too dislike the naming choice for the iray settings because for a layman, they don't mean much. I would have prefered more generic labels so that I could figure out what each thing really does. But then those who are photography experts would be confused. So I just guess, render, guess and rerender until I get something that looks good.

    Couple of other things I'm saddened about is #1 the loss of motion blur (I heard nVidia was working on that for iRay though) and #2 making visible objects not cast shadows and invisible objects cast shadows.

  • TykeyStudiosTykeyStudios Posts: 863
    Angel - Wings said:

    I really like 3Delight too. It has it's perks. If you don't mind it not being photoreal. It can net some great renders. One of my favorite 3Delight renders was this one of Skyler. I try to imagine it looking better in iray or reality, and I'm not sure if it would. http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/images/92233/

    Awe, I love that image! I don't care if it's not "photoreal". It's just perfect. I had to send that image link to a friend. She loved it. 

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    kaotkbliss said:

     #2 making visible objects not cast shadows and invisible objects cast shadows.

    That one is not Iray specific...any physics based renderer will suffer from that one,  Once you delve into the realm of nonrealistic shadows, you are no longer working in an unbiased renderer.  In reality you can't turn shadows on/off...so a simulation of reality doesn't allow it, either.  Just like there aren't truly invisible objects in reality (just ones that can't be seen...or noticed, most likely).

    Iray does have a biased mode that does allow shadow manipulation, though...

  • Sky HndxSky Hndx Posts: 142

    All that fuss for renders that look like chalky pastel frescos.  *shrugs 

  • kaotkblisskaotkbliss Posts: 2,914
    mjc1016 said:
    kaotkbliss said:

     #2 making visible objects not cast shadows and invisible objects cast shadows.

    That one is not Iray specific...any physics based renderer will suffer from that one,  Once you delve into the realm of nonrealistic shadows, you are no longer working in an unbiased renderer.  In reality you can't turn shadows on/off...so a simulation of reality doesn't allow it, either.  Just like there aren't truly invisible objects in reality (just ones that can't be seen...or noticed, most likely).

    Iray does have a biased mode that does allow shadow manipulation, though...

    Someone mentioned something about that before. I've not looked for or messed with that setting yet, but I'm curious if you take 2 iray renders side by side, 1 biased the other nonbiased, if there would be an easily noticable difference between the 2.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001

    Yes there are differences...but how noticeable/'bad' they are really depends on the desired look of the finished render.

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    edited December 2015

    How do you make Iray do biased rendering?

    Post edited by lx_2807502 on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001

    Flip it to Interactive...it is in the Render Mode choices in the Render tab/panel.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,573

    If I render the same scene in 3DL and iRay, to me at least, they look very different. Yes, the scene might be a pretty young female eating an ice cream in both renders, but the look of the shadows, the materials (particularly reflective or transparent materials like water) as well as the less quanitifable "mood" will be very different. Which is "better" is entirely subjective, but the fact that they are different is without doubt (IMHO).

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996

    Oh, I thought you were talking about something different. I thought interactive was just faster at the expense of quality (reds seem to get washed out / images are bluer for some reason, shadows aren't as good) for previewing things, rather than being a biased renderer. Also Iray interactive is blisteringly fast compared to 3DL for me, though I'd never have thought to compare them.

    I don't think that either render engine is better since that's entirely subjective depending on your personal tastes and goals. I do, however, think that Daz thinks that aiming for realism is better, even at the expense of their promo shots properly demonstrating functionality of products, and that kinda sucks.

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