Has commercial imperative destroyed artistic thought?

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  • TaozTaoz Posts: 10,259
    nicstt said:
    Taozen said:

    Quantity spoils quality. In the old days it took a lot of time and trouble to create a painting, today anyone can download all kinds of programs that will do it more or less automatically for you. It gets trivial.

    Same with photography - today everyone has a fully automatic HQ camera and takes tons of pictures because it's easy and costs literally nothing. No messing with camera settings, no experimenting in the dark room.

    Same with programming.

    Hardly anything is unique or stands out anymore. And yes it's the commercialization - making everything easy to do for everyone - that has lead to this.

     

    Nothing spoils quality; but I'll grant you that quantity can sometimes hide it.

    There is nothing wrong with it being easy to do; there will still be a difference between art, and just a pretty picture. And opinion will still continue to make us argue over a piece being art, or just a clever copy.

    I don't see the value in restricting 'the creation' of art to a select few; those that can create art will always stand out - or their work will, to perhaps be more accurate.

    History is replete with the wannabe artists - be they writers, painters, or something else; and sometimes they only achieved greatness after they died. And then there are all those we don't know about, but surely existed. Now the future has the dubious pleasure of being able to view all those attempts (including my own) that fall far short.

    To me the problem with making things too easy is that you won't develop any particular skills that way. In the past only people who really wanted to make art did it, because they had the motivation and desire to overcome the obstacles involved in the process. And motivation and desire are alpha and omega in any creative endeavour - it's what separates the master from the average person, in any context.

    Personally I've never intended to make renders to produce art as such, to me it's just an easy way to make illustrations for books, articles, cartoons and websites, etc.. I've been playing a bit with making renders for purely artistic purposes ("pretty pictures"), but it's not something that really turns me on; I'm more into telling a story or a joke, or making a point of something. If I should create serious 3D art I'd do it all from scratch (modeling, texturing etc.), but I don't really feel motivated for that; I only do it if I can't find the content I need elsewhere. I'd rather focus on developing my skills in other areas which I feel more motivated for, and use renders as a secondary thing to support these projects (a picture tells more than a thousand words etc.). 

  • "All I needed was a was a breeze block. And a bit of an old bone.
    I bet you could make whole worlds? Oh, I could! One minute I'd be laying siege to a castle with a bit of an old bone and the next minute I'd be setting sail on a Spanish galleon."

    Yay, no one else has pointed out that this is a Black Books quote yet. Do I win?

    I don't agree with your premise though. Sure, I do have a lot of content I haven't used, but I, like I'm sure most people here, still get around to doing art.I also find I tend to make better art when I don't worry so much about all the content I have or don't have and just make something. Sometimes I even use some of the content I've purchased over the years.

  • TaozTaoz Posts: 10,259
    edited November 2015
    Taozen said:

    Quantity spoils quality. In the old days it took a lot of time and trouble to create a painting, today anyone can download all kinds of programs that will do it more or less automatically for you. It gets trivial.

    Same with photography - today everyone has a fully automatic HQ camera and takes tons of pictures because it's easy and costs literally nothing. No messing with camera settings, no experimenting in the dark room.

    Same with programming.

    Hardly anything is unique or stands out anymore. And yes it's the commercialization - making everything easy to do for everyone - that has lead to this.

    You make a good point: the ubiquity of easy-to-use tools makes it possible for people to dabble in art in ways that were previously impossible for the lay person. But I have to ask, how is this different than any other form of Folk Art that has been created in previous eras? There are masters in all fields who diminish and deride the novice and the dilatant. 

    For example: In previous eras, a master wood carver (who worked as an apprentice, then became a journeyman and, finally, a master in his own right) will mock the work of the frontier dad who carved a nice headboard for his wife, or the new father who – after putting the animals in the barn at night spends a few hours carving and painting decorations on the bassinette that will hold his first child. Are these homespun folk items from down on the farm going to have the same quality as the work from the old master? Probably not, but that doesn’t make those pieces of folk art irrelevant. And a few of them might even exceed the quality of stuff churned out by the craftsman in his factory.

    Well there is a difference here - in both cases they had to learn to use the same tools, and the novice did learn some "real" skills that way. Personally I believe in reincarnation and that you take skills you learned in one life with you into the next (which to me explains why some are born with great artistic or other talents). Seen from that perspective it's always a good thing to develop whatever skills you can.

     

    Likewise, if you read some of the literature from even as late as the 1800s, you’ll find that many of the artistes considered folk artists to not be “real” artists if they didn’t mix their own paints. Commercial paint in a “real” painting? Blasphemy!

    The same is true for digital art vs traditional media: You did that in Photoshop? Then that’s not “real” art.

    I agree, that's a bit absurd. I'd even say that learning to paint in Photoshop can be harder than "real painting". Even a two year old child can use a brush, but learning to use Photoshop efficiently can be a bit of a task. Some artists will probably say that using "undo" is cheating though... wink 

     

    That’s kind of the same thing you hint at: You didn’t develop your own film? That’s not “real” photography. You didn’t spend time in a dark room, but instead used Photoshop? That’s not “real” photography, either. I'm not saying you actually said those things, but you definitely implied them.

    What I'm saying is that making photography easy and almost costless has lead to a lot of mindless picture taking. Most photos these days are just "documentation of what I/we did there and then", not real artistic photography. 

     

    And let’s bring this closer to my home: When design software like Pagemaker, Word Perfect, MS Word and scalable type were first introduced on Macintosh computers, it put page design tools into the hands of people with VERY questionable levels of skill and taste. Horrendous colors, seven fonts on a single page! Exclamation Points and RANDOM ALL CAPS prevailed for a number of years until the principles of basic design were adequately disseminated to the masses. Now everyone who took a basic design class in high school (or read a few articles online) thinks they have the same knowledge and skills that I (with a four-year degree) have spent decades mastering and using professionally.

    And you know what – a handful of those people DO have abilities that rival and exceed my own. Most don’t, but some do. And that’s the same in every artistic movement.

    Which is why I see the ubiquity of tools and the proliferation of distribution channels (Daz Galleries, Renderosity, DeviantArt) as a GREAT thing. They promote the “average” person to create what – in other times – would have been called Folk Art. A lot of Folk Art is crap, and Digital Folk Art is no different. A lot of it lacks basic technical skills (poor composition, poor lighting, poor makeup choices on the models), but some of it is FANTASTIC. Personally, I don’t mind wading through a lot of dross to find the gems.

    I totally agree. But maybe they were born with these skills - developed in a past life. Anyway, that's how I'd explain it.  wink

    Post edited by Taoz on
  • BarubaryBarubary Posts: 1,232
    And If I ever read that stupid description of that damn sword one more time, I think I'll puke! cheeky  But I have to also admit that I read all 11 books just to see how the hell he was going to tie it all together.

    soooooo...was it worth it? :D

  • JabbaJabba Posts: 1,461

    In answer to the original question...  No.

    It's all a matter of personal choice -

    - if someone comes to the conclusion that there's no point learning how to paint because they won't be as good as their 3D renders, that's their decision.

    - if someone decides to buy stuff they'll never really use from the store, that's their decision.

    - if someone is spending so much money in the store that they can't feed their children, that's their decision (although sounds like they'd also need some professional help).

    - if someone decides to use a combo of 3D render and painting in the same image, even if it does seem to ostracize them from the elitist snobs in either camp, that's their decision.

     

    I don't hoestly see how it's the fault of a retailer simply because they're displaying their wares in a way that makes people want to buy them...  I mean, isn't that the whole point of them being in business?  What people then do with their products after being lawfully sold to them is not actually the concern of the retailer.  Each person has the freedom to choose what to do buy and how to use their purchases.  If people want to follow the trends and stick with the flock, that's still their decision to make - this is not art school where everybody must learn a specific set of diciplines... but that having been said, the more an individual learns, the more likely they are to flourish - so I would certainly encourage people to think outside the box and to not be afraid of experimentation.

     

    You see, there are no rules to this game... you don't have to only do 3D or only do painting - you can combine them both together.  Yes, it takes time and effort, but what good things in life don't?  If you put in the work, you get the reward (the reward of personal achievement - unfortunately not always financially, but that's a different topic). 

    Even if only doing 3D renders, do you only use preset lights/materials settings bought in the store?  Pick up a photography book and try to recreate a classic portrait light rig; push yourself if you want to develop.  It's not actually as mysterious as it might first appear.  But equally, if you're happy doing your thing, be happy and don't let anyone pressure you to change.  Progress works best when you actually want to progress, not because somebody else is telling you to "get with the program".

     

    As it happens, I can't actually show most of my recent art, as it's covered by NDA with computer game developers... but what I can say is that by starting with a 3D render then painting over it, I can deliver an image in a day that would normally have taken me over a week to do to the same quality if simply painting from scratch on a blank canvas in Photoshop.  A lot of the time, people want the quality of 3D but want it to look painted - so the logical solution for me was to develop a workflow of painting my 3D renders - many forums/groups refuse to post them because they're neither pure 3D nor pure painted, but they give me the result I'm happy with... so elitist snobs can do one bacause I'm happy with what I produce (not to mention it seems to fit a commercial niche).

    ...And that for me is the key - if you're genuinely happy with the art you produce, don't let other people drag you down.  But if you do want to improve, then start experimenting... the worst that can happen is that you discover what not to do until you find what works.

    But if your creativity is controlled by what someone has decided to sell in their store, I'd posit that the problem is with you rather than with what they sell.

  • IceDragonArtIceDragonArt Posts: 12,759

    "And the study continues, because there is never an end to what can be learned." - This is what drives me to learn how to change things that I purchase so it becomes mine and not everyone elses.

     

    I think that every time someone uses the things they purchase (now or ten years from now) and puts something together out of their own head (even if they are just using straight out of the box stuff for the whole thing) its an exercise in creativity for THEM and really that's all that matters

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