Has commercial imperative destroyed artistic thought?
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As a novice, I really appreciated this comment. I've never been a very 'artsy' guy. I'm a numbers person who, somehow, can manage to play about 5 instruments fairly 'good enough' to entertain, and who's creative strength is in writing, drawing with words, as it were. However, my (drawing) art ability is so limited that even my stick figures are crooked. Daz has allowed me to take the images in my head and, even in my hack way, put them on 'canvas'. Yeah, I know I could do much better, but my driving vision is so strong that I'm mentally rushed to get all my story out of my head before it's gone. Are my pictures art? I hardly think so, but they're more for telling the story that I'm thinking than for being breathtaking renders.
I find that Daz is a many-faceted medium. Some pictures in the Gallery amaze me. Mine? Total hack work. But if the viewer takes the time, everything I put in my picture adds to the story in some way (usually through atmosphere), and if someone, anyone, picks up on one of those little details and it enhances the story for them, then I couldn't be more thrilled. I suppose you could call that artistic success.
I just hope I can get better, in time, where one day I'll look at one of my own pictures and go "Wow! That's amazing!! How the &$#* did I pull that off?!?"
The hamburger thing can work backwards.
An amateur can start creating pictures, then realize that the images he/she is producing just don't look right. So the amateur begins reading about composition, color schemes, and lighting, searching for a way to improve. Once the hunger to learn starts, it doesn't stop. Next comes research about art styles, art history, fascination with the historic great artists as people. And the study continues, because there is never an end to what can be learned.
Not all of us were fortunate enough to have an interest in art during our formative years, so we're a step behind. Usually because we were told we could not draw and that drawing was a magic skill, only gifted to the chosen ones. If our art teachers had told us, "you can't see as an artist sees yet, but you can learn to see," maybe more of us would've been inspired to appreciate art from childhood. :-)
Anything that makes someone appreciate or take an interest in the fascinating world of art is a good thing, IMHO. Creativity enhances all facets of life.
Has commericial imperative destroyed artistic thought?
If it did, it happened more than a couple of thousand years ago when we invented money.
Unless art is exclusively created by the independently wealthy, the commercial imperative -- to make money in order to survive -- is always going to affect art. I doubt that our museums have so many portraits of artistocrats because the painters of the times had a continual obsession with painting bored looking princes and princesses. They painted them because -- money. Art still flourished.
I'm not sure what the OP is worried about. Lots of people are creating billions of really tasteless or low quality photos and cg images. So what? What other people do with their creative energy is their business. Art takes effort, concentration, endurance, and patience that most people aren't willing or able to expend. If you're wasting too much time worrying about what other people are doing, then you're expending needless effort in a pointless way and _that_ may affect your own artistic endeavours. But destroy artistic thought? No. The internet just makes it look like that because now we get to see all the stuff -- good, bad, and awful -- that people used to hide in shoeboxes. But it's not so terrible, you know. Some of those shoeboxes are filled with treasure.
The good news is that I am sure that you will have that "wow" moment, the bad news is when you look at that picture 6 months later you will think it is dire because you have evolved even further. And don't forget "hack" is also in the eye of the beholder. My mother thought Picasso's late work was inspired and effortless. I thought it was lazy and ugly.
I couldn't agree more.While I like and appreciate the scatilly clad female form in the various galleries and have respect for all the vendors, I hate it when I can recognize the assets used for an image, especially when I see them again and again. I am always more inspired when I look at an image and wonder where/how did they get/do that which to me says more for being creative than just most plug and play images. Your analogy for us creating promos for the variious artists is spot on IMO, which is why I have spent more time as of late using my own mesh or mesh from outside this community for rendered images, it makes me feel more creative and is more satisfying. I tend to change shaders, tweak material settings and use custom figures/props most of the time, partly because of using an outside renderer and partly to try and be more creative and unique.
It's okay to build a library of assets. I've got several libraries.
* movies (I have movies that were on sale and I might not have watched. Oh well)
* music (ditto)
* Books (both ebook and real books). No, I haven't read them all; not yet.
* tools. I've got some unused tools in my garage, kitchen, and home office that were part of one or more collections. Er... "bundles". See what I did there? Others that I bought, maybe even at full price, just because I wanted them in my toolbox. Chance favors the prepared mind (and hands). Haven't needed to use them all yet. I even have a couple of Leatherman tools but haven't used every single driver bit or swing-out blade yet. One of the tips is for tightening the tiny screws on glasses, and it's reversible between flat and phillips tips. I wear contacts.
But it's a toolbox in my pocket, and I don't feel that it was a waste of money to buy a tool that has some features that I haven't needed yet.
* 3D art assets. Yep.
Although a great many schools of thought on creative pursuits hold that that is exactly what you should do. A person may have a phenomenal amount of artistic talent, but they're far more likely to achieve something if they spend the time learning their craft. Great artists of the past spent years in apprenticeship copying their masters style before they were equipped to develop their own. It's no less a part of the learning process to copy someone's style than it is to learn how perspective works.
Very much my situation -- I'm a writer, and the images I create are just for adding a new dimension to what I'm writing. As someone who would look at your crooked stick figures and think "I wish I could do that", I never had the ability to convert what I pictured in my head into a visual image. I don't think my images are very good, I know they'll never reach the level of some of the work I see here every day (notwithstanding that, as in every field, there's way more mediocre stuff than great stuff), but if I can convey to someone the story I'm trying to tell, that is a great accomplishment. I'd love to have the time and the talent to be able to create models or textures, but it's just not going to happen; I'd rather spend the time writing, which I have some talent at, then on trying to create from scratch something that'll never be as good as something I can buy. I consider myself lucky if I can make small modifications to something I buy that isn't quite how I want it to be.
why you still beat the poor dead horse thats dead for a long time already
only the bones are left
I'm a 5 year old trapped in a mans body so I made my own virtual cardboard box
Inconceivable! You aren't breaking/fixing enough stuff!... Have you tried using the little driver to pry off your contacts when they are too dry?
Nothing spoils quality; but I'll grant you that quantity can sometimes hide it.
There is nothing wrong with it being easy to do; there will still be a difference between art, and just a pretty picture. And opinion will still continue to make us argue over a piece being art, or just a clever copy.
I don't see the value in restricting 'the creation' of art to a select few; those that can create art will always stand out - or their work will, to perhaps be more accurate.
History is replete with the wannabe artists - be they writers, painters, or something else; and sometimes they only achieved greatness after they died. And then there are all those we don't know about, but surely existed. Now the future has the dubious pleasure of being able to view all those attempts (including my own) that fall far short.
Buying something to support a vendow because you appreciate what they do, is most definitely a postive action; there is no reason that the tradition of artists being poor, should be continued.
For me, that is a positive benefit of this commercialisation. Artists, who may have remained undiscovered, now have a medium. I can't think of anything more beneficial for art than that.
I agree with Peter completely: a 5-year-old child is being creative, not creating art. There is a big difference between the two.
I have earned my living as a creative professional since I was in my early 20s. First as a typesetter (back when that was a profession) then in a variety of jobs including journalist, advertising, graphic design, software development (mostly GUI design), Web Development, technical writing and commercial illustration. That's three decades of taking money for my ability to move what's happening between my ears out through my fingertips. As such, I definitely see the difference between things like creativity/talent, skill (although related, those different) and a huge difference between fine art and commercial art.
The points raised by the original poster are good. Are some of us spending money on things we'll never use and wasting time shopping for the latest and greatest instead of spending that time making art? Yes, probably. I think that is a very valid question and I hope it motivates a few of us to turn off the browser and turn on Daz Studio and spend a little more time making art and growing as artists.
PS: Peter, I'm completely with you on that comment about a pile of bricks. Most "Installation" pieces I've seen may be provocative because of their context (by that, I mean placing them in a gallery), but I don't see them as art.
You make a good point: the ubiquity of easy-to-use tools makes it possible for people to dabble in art in ways that were previously impossible for the lay person. But I have to ask, how is this different than any other form of Folk Art that has been created in previous eras? There are masters in all fields who diminish and deride the novice and the dilatant.
For example: In previous eras, a master wood carver (who worked as an apprentice, then became a journeyman and, finally, a master in his own right) will mock the work of the frontier dad who carved a nice headboard for his wife, or the new father who – after putting the animals in the barn at night spends a few hours carving and painting decorations on the bassinette that will hold his first child. Are these homespun folk items from down on the farm going to have the same quality as the work from the old master? Probably not, but that doesn’t make those pieces of folk art irrelevant. And a few of them might even exceed the quality of stuff churned out by the craftsman in his factory.
Likewise, if you read some of the literature from even as late as the 1800s, you’ll find that many of the artistes considered folk artists to not be “real” artists if they didn’t mix their own paints. Commercial paint in a “real” painting? Blasphemy!
The same is true for digital art vs traditional media: You did that in Photoshop? Then that’s not “real” art.
That’s kind of the same thing you hint at: You didn’t develop your own film? That’s not “real” photography. You didn’t spend time in a dark room, but instead used Photoshop? That’s not “real” photography, either. I'm not saying you actually said those things, but you definitely implied them.
And let’s bring this closer to my home: When design software like Pagemaker, Word Perfect, MS Word and scalable type were first introduced on Macintosh computers, it put page design tools into the hands of people with VERY questionable levels of skill and taste. Horrendous colors, seven fonts on a single page! Exclamation Points and RANDOM ALL CAPS prevailed for a number of years until the principles of basic design were adequately disseminated to the masses. Now everyone who took a basic design class in high school (or read a few articles online) thinks they have the same knowledge and skills that I (with a four-year degree) have spent decades mastering and using professionally.
And you know what – a handful of those people DO have abilities that rival and exceed my own. Most don’t, but some do. And that’s the same in every artistic movement.
Which is why I see the ubiquity of tools and the proliferation of distribution channels (Daz Galleries, Renderosity, DeviantArt) as a GREAT thing. They promote the “average” person to create what – in other times – would have been called Folk Art. A lot of Folk Art is crap, and Digital Folk Art is no different. A lot of it lacks basic technical skills (poor composition, poor lighting, poor makeup choices on the models), but some of it is FANTASTIC. Personally, I don’t mind wading through a lot of dross to find the gems.
Now that is totally cool!
But it typically takes MacGyver about four pages of text to get to the point. As bad as reading Faulkner. :)
Finally my writing has been compared to Faulkner instead of Ted Kaczynski! It's from Faulkner's mid 50s newspaper interview that I took this piece of wisdom:
"Let the writer take up surgery or bricklaying if he is interested in technique. There is no mechanical way to get the writing done, no shortcut. The young writer would be a fool to follow a theory. Teach yourself by your own mistakes; people learn only by error. The good artist believes that nobody is good enough to give him advice. He has supreme vanity. No matter how much he admires the old writer, he wants to beat him."
I have taken this to mean:
Before writing anything you should preform either surgery or build a brick wall... Possibly both... When writing don't use a typewriter or writing robot... Write way more than any sane person is willing to read (especially now in these days of Twitter)... Don't pay attention to spelling, punctuation, grammar or the order in which you write words that's for boring people and angry frustrated Literature teachers... Make lots of mistakes, especially spelling... Try developing a bit of alcoholism and then learn from that and develop some madness instead and then right before you die, regret it all in a short, but long story about someone just like you but with a mustache and who is not you who learns something import yet undefined at last... Never take anyone's advice especially sound or reasonable advice... Make random rash decisions... Dress up like Napoleon or Liberace... Beat up old people who write stuff...
I try my best to follow these suggestions... Recently I snuck up and whacked some old guy on the back of his head with a newspaper while he was filling out a birthday card for his Granddaughter at Hallmark in the mall... He almost caught me... Spry old fella.
But I feel it made me a better writer. Or run faster and hide under bra bins in Victoria's Secret better... Either way something changed and I got a free lacy bra out of it... Well it wasn't free, But it did get snagged on my belt.
It was too small for my wife, so now the neighbor's cat is wearing it... I think he likes it too. Now I know what to get him for his birthday.
I think if you go back to the top of this post and read what I quoted from Faulkner, there is actually something relevant to this thread to be found in it... Basically that art, like writing is something that there is no shortcut to... If you listen to rhetoric and follow formulas, your work will be stale... Learn from your mistakes, but don't be swayed by others preconceptions or personal opinions... If it is to be art, it should be what you want to make... Your passion. And beat up old people who write stuff and learn to run and hide quickly.... I know there was that part about vanity, but vanity is annoying and there is too much of it in this world, so I'm ignoring that and replacing it with dressing vain... Anyway... Remember, there is no short story or simple thought that can't be made long or convoluted and in the end if you read too much and find it dissatisfying or feel the journey was too long for the point made... Enjoy the scenery if not the destination and blame your eyes for having guided you there and not the person who wrote it.
Cheers & Beers y'all!
A McGyver post that I can learn something from, oh whoopee.
The following has nothinmg to do with anything said before, or even the topic of the thread really, but I thought I would share.
I had an english teacher when I was at school who felt that no child learned to behave better by being told to write 100 lines when caught misbehaving in class. So we got to write a 1000 word essay instead. To make the punishment fit the crime he would do things like a 1000 word essay on Intercontinental ballistic missiles if you got caught throwing paper planes across the room. Was a good punisment because not only were you punished, you learned to do research into a subject you knew next to nothing about in order to write the essay. No matter how tongue in cheek you made it, it did need a few cogent facts.
I take it you will be beating up a pensioner then? Remember to zig zag when fleeing, their old knees prevent them from making tight turns.
Well, I have to admit that I never read any Faulkner (shame on me) but if you want to point out authors who ramble, try Terry Goodkind's "Sword of Truth" series. Starts out with this noble premise of a magic sword in a magic world and a perfect hero and perfect heroine, fighting perfect baddies. Oops there, I've given away the whole meat of the eleven 1000 page books in the series.
His writing style seems to be: I'm going to tell you something, I'm now telling you something; I just told you the thing I promised to tell you, but you are an idiot so I'll repeat it twice more and do so again every other chapter.
And If I ever read that stupid description of that damn sword one more time, I think I'll puke!
But I have to also admit that I read all 11 books just to see how the hell he was going to tie it all together.
Thanks
I am *not* an artist, and to be called so is taken as an insult. I am a technician, engineer, and designer. I create imagery for a purpose, just as I create code for a purpose. Each and every one of both has a use, and is used for the designated purpose. There are some who would classify the work as art, but it is not so.
All that I buy, I use. What I can't buy, I create and use.
When I started into 3D, images were created with text files, coordinates, dimensions, geometric shapes, and boolean operations. No GUIs, no mice, only Tektronix vector displays at visualization stations; most mono-chromatic a few had 16 color choices with 4 available for display simultaneously. The current tech is way beyond anything we could have wished for at the time. I'd posit that "Artistic Thought" has been freed by the tools, and impeded by Societal Pressures -- ESPECIALLY within the last few years.
Kendall
Who me? I'm a pacifist at heart, and at my age fleeing isn't on the cards, a slow walk suits me (and the arthritic knees) better.
Excuse me, I think it was MacDraw:
http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Cthulhu-Anciens-51462054
Agreed. Not only are some previously undiscovered artists given a medium, but some are able to quit their day jobs as travel agents and cashiers, and spend the day being generally creative, while still earning enough to support their families.
Oh my god, don't even get me started on that one. I got a newsletter the other day that used 11 different fonts! I was grinding my teeth, and couldn't read the dang thing. I took two semesters of typography in college, (my four year degree is in photography,) and that in no way makes me a master. I know enough to realize how much I still don't know about type. My instructor did a really good thing for us though. On our second class we visited a printing house where we got to view and assist with hand setting the type for a small poster on a Linotype. When we got back to the computer lab, we all had a real appreciation for typesetting software, and a much better understanding of what we were doing, and why.
I am sure lots of people do what you're describing.
I am not one of them. I am doing a webcomic. I buy what I need or think I will need to do the webcomic. I know in advance what sets, props, and character models I will need (or at least, think I will need/plan to use), and I put those things on my wishlist. I buy them as I have need of them. For example I needed another Asian hair and some more male hair for a couple of new characters last night, so I bought those, plus a couple of shaders. So I don't just buy stuff because it's new.
Now, I will say that there are some "general use" items, like shaders, that I will get without always being 100% sure what specific prop or character will need them. To me, you can never have too many shaders, since the more you have the better you can make a scene look. But other than that, I buy what I need, and not much else. In fact, I'm more often than not trying to work with the minimum I can buy, because if I were to truly buy everything I needed to make a scene perfect, I'd never get anything finished.
So, at least for me, there's not much stuff I have downloaded and not ever planned to use. Some of it may not have been used yet -- I have scenes in the hopper that are part-done and still waiting for one more expensive product to go on sale. But they are all planned to be used in upcoming issues one way or the other. I don't just buy stuff so I can "have it."
I wonder what happened to the OP? I hope we didn't make Him/Her feel unwelcome or that we pooped all over their opinion... I respectfully disagreed... Or at least I think I did... I don't really think much when I write... It's easier on my conscience that way... But if I did disagree and anyone else did disagree, it doesn't mean we don't respect your opinion or like you... It just means we disagreed or we were drunk when we posted... I might be now, so I'm just putting that out there in case this takes a turn for the worst... But mostly if we disagreed and I'm just basing this on general observation it's because these forums hold a vast diverse collection of lunatics... No... That's not the right word... People?... A vast and diverse collection of people with many different tastes and flavors... No... Ideas... Flavors would imply having licked a bunch of them and I don't think I've done that... So... Many different tastes and ideas... We don't always agree, we don't always share similar ideas... We don't always wash our hands when we use the lavatory, but we do respect each other's opinions. More or less... Mostly... Sometimes it gets edgy and uncomfortable but we all mostly sometimes on some occasions respect each other's right to a particular opinion here and there.... I guess. I don't really know for sure, I've had quite a few beers and my ability to think straight is waning quickly... Which probably why I started this post... But, whatever the reason, I just noticed the OP never responded and I wanted them to know they shouldn't take any of what was said here personally... Unless they made that post as some sort of social experiment to test our opinions on this matter for some reason... Possibly a school paper or a report to our hamster overlords... Someone here recently mentioned we might have hamster overlords, so I thought I'd put that out there just in case... But anyway... I'm curious if the OP is still around or has read this... No actually I'm not... It's the beer... Guiness extra stout... Several... But anyway... If the OP... By the way that means Original Post, or Original Poster... I suppose it could stand for other things too... Optimus Penguin... Orangutan Pevert... But mostly the first two... Anyway if the OP is still around , don't be discouraged if some of us didn't completely agree or were obnoxious... That last one would be me. Well, anyway good night and hopefully no hard feelings.
lol...I had meant to post but I'm laughing so much at McGyver's post I've forgotten what I was going to write....something to do with lego? Oh that's right...I remember having a conversation with my sister years ago when the kids were small and used lego.
It went along the lines that our kids had so much lego that they didn't use it because they just ended up overwhelmed. The lego goes into school with me these days and the kids at school love using it. Sorry I'm off on a tangent...my point was I always thought it was better to have more rather than less because you never knew when you would need that extra roof tile. Same with content...sometimes we buy stuff when it's first released or on sale because we know we'll use it one day and it's better to have it than not. And if not it's always there for when I retire and don't have any cash to spend...