Has commercial imperative destroyed artistic thought?
fred9803
Posts: 1,565
Lost count of the "Yes, I downloaded it, but nevert used it" people.
And the "Tweaking the new product for Iray", but never producing a piece of what could be called art.
And the "must have" people who got the latest thing but don't know what the hell they're actually going to use it for.
And Daz keeps churning out an insane sausage factory of products quicker than anyone has any use for.
"All I needed was a was a breeze block. And a bit of an old bone.
I bet you could make whole worlds? Oh, I could! One minute I'd be laying siege to a castle with a bit of an old bone and the next minute I'd be setting sail on a Spanish galleon."
The stifling of creative thought by a relentless incessant stream of "make art" must have products has lead us away from art itself. And we are all the weaker artists for it.
Look at a five year old with a cardboard box and an imagination and you can see how we've got less imagination and creativity than they have with all the new shiny expensive stuff at our disposal.
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Interesting thoughts, and you make a good point.
Guilty as charged on all three accounts so I should probably be offended, but I've never experienced that leading to anything so I'll pass on that.
If I could do art on my own, i.e. draw, I wouldn't need computer generated 3D stuff to help me put the images in my head into actual pictures. Or, I could of course draw anyway, but just like the creation of that five year old you mention, it would look like crap and I would most likely be the only one that understand what it is supposed to be.
Sure, I could use my imagination and say that that "old bone" is a catapult in a castle siege, but if I have to explain that to everyone else seeing it, I haven't made a very good image, have I? If it's art or not could of course be discussed further. There's a lot of famous art that doesn't really look like anything...
And speaking of setting sail. Have a look at the "It's raining men" contest thread. There's some quite imaginative use of a women's thong in one of the entries there. I don't believe imagination is dead just because we have pretty shinies to express our imagination with.
I don't think they are related.
I've got kids at home, one is creative, makes tons of art, the other is more into sports. They both have all the paper and crayons and paraphanalia they could want to create. One does, one doesn't. End of story.
Same for the store, having options to buy in the store will not make you more or less creative. You either have the inspiration, or not.
I, myself, love art, and I enjoy checking out the gallery daily to see what people come up with, in their creation of art.
Artists do not have to buy anything, but they do have to create. But buying stuff can help. Sometimes.
DAZ is a tool. A versatile tool, and I collect 3D pieces of this tool like mad. But then I need these pieces to produce something, and the more tools I have (in this special case), the better I can develope my scenes.
so true +1
Yes and no.
It's such fun to window shop, and weigh this product against that, along with potential uses. Time I spend doing that, I used to spend in the 3d programs themselves.
And with our kind of art, we can either make what we render or buy it. I don't know about everyone else, but it's more convenient for me to buy, if the price is right and if the item is something I can fit into an image.
Texturing is so important, also, and even with the new PBR texturing apps, the professionals do texturing better than I do because they're professionals.
Also, with the use of pro-made products, my images are better.
Then again, depending on the pros weakens my self-reliance and my incentive to make original things.
So its kind of a catch 22. I guess if one does renders for a living, hands down it makes more sense to buy pre-made. If one is a hobbyist, or a semi-student of modeling, the brilliant waterfall of products can be tempting, daunting, intimidating, or distracting.
It's like all the conveniences of a modern world. I know talented seamstresses, but only a dedicated few make their own clothes. :-)
Very interesting thoughts you have. Food for more thought.
My only input really is I do spend a fair amount of time reworking content to get it where I think it should look. Whether it doesn't fit correctly, the textures are poorly done or lack realism or whatever. I'd honestly rather spend it rendering
Since I also tend to prefer rendering men there is little new to choose from and again a lot of female content to try to rework or older stuff to refit
My thought is why does it matter so much to some, what others do with their time, money, and tools?
I think you missed the message. This line sums it up.
Shouldn't a concerned community member share their thoughts if that is how they feel?
My thoughts on the matter are a bit different. And it's better I kept them to myself. However I do understand the OP very well. And I agree at least directionally.
That's what teams are for. For those of us not interested in the time it takes to coordinate others, (or the money etc) we have to do "it all". At a big studio you could just focus on one task, but that is not a luxury most of us have. But at least we do have some stock content to get started with, still better than nothing.
BTW, the "commercial imperative" hasn't bothered me lately. I became immune to it long ago. You have to have a mind of your own :)
My first thought: I think the fact that people are arguing whether this stuff is art is a good sign that this stuff is art. ;)
My second thought: nuts to you
I don't get the nuts to you reference. I googled it and got specialty stores. U a salesperson?
But the art debate is always silly to me. Art is easy, fine art not so much. I think when people are debating "art" they really are debating about something more specific. Whether something is art is a lot less debatable than people understand. However you could spend years debating on whether its good art, fine art, high art etc. Ain't nobody got time fo dat.
'nuts to you' is a very very very mild phrase rebuking someone. ;)
I did a better search thanks to google suggestion "nuts to you idiom" gave me what I needed. One of it's meanings is drop dead :/ So it turns out its a threat used against those alergic to nuts :(
I don't think I have ever rendered any nuts, not part of my artistic vision ;) Even if they were on sale I wouldn't buy them since it's really not something I see adding to a piece. Now if you apply that logic to everything sold, you might prevent your "artistic thought" from being destroyed. Don't buy stuff to buy stuff. And don't use new tools if you don't need or want them.
That's why I don't spend countless hours fighting with smart content. Stuff like that would drain the creative energies.
Some very interesting thoughts and there is a lot of truth there. I do tend to buy a lot of stuff that I don't use very much. One of my problems is that I keep seeing new things and thinking what sort of pictures I could use them for, but before I manage to create those pictures there's something else new and there are other pictures I could create with them....
The thing about the five year old with the cardboard box is that what he or she sees is in his or her imagination, but I think art is about presenting what's in your imagination so others can see it. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe that's why I don't see the point of a lot of art that is highly thought off. I never could figure out why a pile of bricks in a gallery is art.
Daz has to keep churning out new stuff to stay in business, and this is a good thing since it means there is a wide selection of stuff to chose from. If we can just excercise some restraint we can get what we need to create all sorts of art.
Ding! We have a winner!
Agreed!
Also: Generalisations are rarely accurate.
And: Just another "What is Art" thread.
Moving on.
It's not another "what is art" thread. It touches on points that get brought up often over the years that are actually issues for some people. While some people may be ok with the issues mentioned, you can't pretend no one makes these statements in the forums.
Comes up a lot for example.
Lars, I'm guessing you are not totally serious. That's just one of its meanings, but of course without any nuts allergy references. Generally it's used the same these days as the nicer "go away" or "buzz off" or the the not nice 4 letter word that begins with "F" and the word "you." It also could mean go to hell in a stronger meaning.
For the OP I consider DAZ Studio a tool and the contents as tools and aids, similar to reference photos, rulers and such, and paint. You still have to work at it and have talent to make something look great. I only buy items I think would be useful or that I think I could modify.
I have seen renders in the gallery that were not so good, and I've seen renders that were remarkably good. An artist will make what is good in the store into art. Someone with no talent and/or little effort will make something that is run of the mill or not good or great. I do not think a steady stream of products from DAZ is bad at all. For one, it keeps them in business. And two, I often get inspired by what I've seen and or purchased.
Not serious at all :)
I'm not 100% sure what you mean... (Well, the OP)...But I'm not 100% sure I'm real... perhaps the perception of who, what, where or when I might be, if I were actually who or what I occasionally believe I may be is confused because it in this current configuration of what it believes to be reality, has not had our coffee yet... Does this perceived incarnation of DAZ sell a lot of similar stuff that really isn't all that imaginative? I'd imagine so... Does DAZ force the artists associated with said product to mine the raw content ore for these products from dark dangerous content mines deep within the earth's bowels and then forge them into whatever soulless creations the mad overlords in their dark obsidian towers dictate?... I don't know... That was a pretty long sentence and I got lost halfway through... Hold on... Okay... Weird... But probably not... Do many artists still have to struggle to eat and or pay bills because they are no longer able to make ends meet solely as ninja stripper nun assassins or as opera mimes, so they thus have to forgo imaginative complex or stunning creations spun from the tattered fibers of their fevered imaginations for items they hope will sell fast enough to stave off starvation and or eviction for another day... Quite possibly if that meant what I think I wrote... If not... Also still quite possibly... If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around will a squirrel call 911?... No, squirrels are selfish.
Is everyone here an artist? Is everyone really here? Of those that are really real and really here, how many are just making pin ups?.. Just messing around with no real goal?... Making soft core porn for their own amusement or that of other sweaty individuals?... Don't actually want to invest 200 metric buttloads of effort into deep and complex flights of imagination and prefer to use whatever items that strike their fancy right off the shelf?... Are zombie nazi vampire werewolf robots rendering for nefarious purposes?... Are not actually intent on making art?... Dressing up virtual dolls?... Addicted to buying stuff with no clear vision as to what they may actually do with it?.... Or just having fun making pictures?....
Does it really matter?
Art is art only when someone says it's art and art by itself, never calls itself art because it prefers to leave that judgement to the viewer... And more often than not, the viewer reserves that judgement for the call of the critic or expert and they call art what they feel to be art based on what that call will bring them and less on what may or may not be art to others... If a painting is hung alone in the woods and there is no one around to hear it called art, is it still art?... I should probably ask a squirrel.
Does commercial imperative destroy artistic thought? Do bombs and totalitarian regimes destroy artistic thought?... No. Artistic thought is like a weed... It grows wherever it finds a crack it can lodge itself into... Flames may rage about it, floods may try to drown it, parasites and beasts may gnaw it to the root... But it survives because it can turn what nothing else can, into sustenance, because it can adapt to drought or floods or cold... Because its roots are strong. Commercial imperative can only influence those not interested in actually creating art... But anyone interested in creating art will find a way of expressing their vision... One way or another. Commercial imperative or not, artistic thought is not in any danger... To be honest, it may be helped along... No one says anyone has to buy the latest and coolest stuff, and amongst all the cool and shiny things... If one looks, there are lots of imaginative items and supplies, tools and materials that a creative mind can use to make what they envision.... Granted, there may not be metric buttloads, or even imperial buttloads of stuff... But there is way more stuff than most people can use in their allotted free time... Could there be more stuff?... Sure...
When I look at my ten year old daughter playing with a box (yes, ten and she still messes with cardboard boxes), I don't see just a person with imagination, but a person obsessed with tape and staples and construction paper trying to build a dangerous robot with no clear idea that cardboard is at terribly poor and flammable medium for deadly robots to be constructed from... And that my robot made out of old washing machine and Ford Fiesta parts is way more durable and is gonna kick her robot's butt... Wait... What was I talking about? Something about robots again... Ah, who knows where I was going with that... I think I was trying to find a way of wrapping this up but I dropped a banana peel into my coffee mug and that threw me off... I think where I was going with this is.... Who cares how many shiny, similar or unimaginative cool things are out there, if someone wants to make something out of a virtual cardboard box... Figuratively or actually they will...(actually my "Really-Bakes Oven" model comes with an opening cardboard box... So knock yourself out with that if you want)...(figuratively).... But people who want shiny cool will have that... It's not gonna kill art or destroy anyone's imagination... If centuries of wars and piles of Hitlers can't kill artist thought, I don't think iron pasties or hammered bronze thongs will... Anyone who wants to forego all the commercial offerings, if their intent is strong will abandon all that and learn to model, rig and texture... They will forge their own content from the raw content ore of their imagination... And maybe when they have some spare time they will sell some of that here to those interested in it.
Did I wrap that up?... I feel I left something out... I'm still confused by the bone and breeze block thing, but I'm actually more confused by the bulk of what I just wrote... I hope everyone else is too.... Well, that it, it's gone.... Damn banana...
You succeeded in confusing me, Mac. :-)
Then again, it doesn't take much to confuse me. ;-)
I think it's fun to talk about people's thoughts and ideas -- and sometimes something I read on a forum will give me an idea for an image.
That's lovely, thanks. ...
edit to change post after reading some of the others ... your post was not too long ... the first part was very funny and I needed the laughs ... with that over, the rest of the post had a very important point to make and it's sad folk missed it.
its an interesting dilemma indeed. I love buying new shiny stuff when I can afford it. And I don't think I have ever bought anything just to buy it, I usually buy it because I can see more than one use for it. I quickly stopped buying a lot of textures for many things because I realized that I could create my own in most cases using either a shader or photo shop. I also have every intention of learning to model, however, while in the process of doing that I still want to be able to actually do renders and it may be years before my modelling is up to the par to be really useful, because there is only so many hours in the day and 40 of those a week or more I spend working. And I have a family and pets and a life (mostly) as well. So, for me to get what is in my head out into the world, right now, premade works for me.
I don't have that problem, but then I am in this more for the story than the art. I write comedy stories about a time traveling wizard and his pet dragon (though the dragon seems to think it is the other way around on the pet part) so I need to have lots of completely unrelated stuff for my pictures. My library is devided into stuff I haven't used yet; stuff I have used; and stuff I haven't bought yet but will as soon as somebody gets around to making it ;)
While I often hurt myself laughing at these blatherings, there is a point where less is more, and more is too many words. Same effect as the old MAD magazine. Very funny if the cartoons were less than one page long. Similarly, Robin Williams (RIP) was very funny in small doses.
Don't get me wrong, I believe that "McGyver" is some sort of savant genius in that strange arena of sarcastic humor, but I do also believe that sometimes his pen (fingers) take over the operation and his brain has little capability of stopping it before the ink runs out.
However, I am certain that many times, my brain begins to hurt about 100 words into a paragraph when it notices that there are 300 words left in the paragraph. 
So before I commit the same distraction, and the conversation reverts to nuts, I'll just say that when my brain stops hurting I may go back and read the rest of the hilarity. I am, after all, in the presence of genius!
You have some good points. I will say, that as new tools are available, there is a lul in artistic creation. But once we get over the learning curve, the renders become more and more artistic.
After awhile, you learn to skip the boring parts.
Trouble is, the boring parts are hard to find!
I said you made a good point.
Sometimes when I'm browsing a website, it sparks an idea; that website might this one, or somewhere else. Other times my inspiration comes from reading, watching TV, driving, and the list can go on.
If we're shopping, either becuase we have an idea, and are looking for something to help, or perhaps becuase we're curious what is in the shop, and wonder what it might make us think about, then it could be said it is helping creativity.
If however, we're browsing because we need today's must-buy-something-fix, then it can stifle creativity, but that is down to each of us: if we let it.
So while I have items I've never used; I continually look at what's hidden away; it is surprising what ideas spark when that happens, and they were totally different than anything that occured when I bought the item.
Quantity spoils quality. In the old days it took a lot of time and trouble to create a painting, today anyone can download all kinds of programs that will do it more or less automatically for you. It gets trivial.
Same with photography - today everyone has a fully automatic HQ camera and takes tons of pictures because it's easy and costs literally nothing. No messing with camera settings, no experimenting in the dark room.
Same with programming.
Hardly anything is unique or stands out anymore. And yes it's the commercialization - making everything easy to do for everyone - that has lead to this.
I think one also needs to keep in mind that statements like "I have all this stuff I never used", "had to have the new shiny thing", "wait, you're supposed to render with this stuff, not just buy it?" are usually tongue-in-cheek. And often when one doesn't have the time or inspiration to create art for a stretch, browsing the store is a way of keeping the artistic juices flowing.