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Thoughts on older and abandoned products

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  • LeanaLeana Posts: 12,784

    Thanks for testing @Elor. If we can still use the 3DL material files as we did in 4.x that will make things easier (except for the very old ones, but I can understand having to convert those).

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,248

    Standard RSL shaders/materials were converted without reference to any part of the 3Delight code, as far as I know, so they should work as before. Custom shaders aren't now, and I expect won't be in future, converted - those will end up as a plain default material and need manually setting up; I think one of more of the dragons have thatr issue in their mouths.

  • LeanaLeana Posts: 12,784
    edited May 2025

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Standard RSL shaders/materials were converted without reference to any part of the 3Delight code, as far as I know, so they should work as before. Custom shaders aren't now, and I expect won't be in future, converted - those will end up as a plain default material and need manually setting up; I think one of more of the dragons have thatr issue in their mouths.

    Yes custom RSL shaders were already a problem when used in Iray, but I was thinking of materials using for example the basic 3DL shaders, UberSurface or AoA shaders which were automatically converted before.

    Post edited by Leana on
  • memcneil70memcneil70 Posts: 5,339

    Richard Haseltine said:

    butterflyfish said:

    memcneil70 said:

    I don't remember where I read it, but it was my impression from the Daz Studio discussions. I apologise. But will 3DL/Poser materials be supported by DS2025?

    I just opened DS2025 and the thumbnail for BRC - Serenity, SKU 3302, is a ! mark, but the scene file does load and I was able to do a spot render. But The Ballroom, SKU 2931, which has .duf files has their thumbnails showing up.

     

    As I understand it, 3DL will not be supported. But Poser files work just fine.

    Yes, there is no inherent connection between Poser files and 3Delight - for a while imported objects got the 3delight Daz Default sahder applied, but now they get the current render engine's default shader. Where a Poser file has a companion script to aply 3Delight materials that will not be productive 9and a lot will be in the original Daz Script, not the Daz Script 2 introduced in DS 3, for which auto-conversion is no longer available - Qt change - so hopefully they will load with the base Poser settings and will need adjusting for best results).

    I spent most of yesterday going back over the Evergreen thread and the 'then' 16 pages of the DS 2025/6 thread to see if I could find where I made a connection between 3DL and Poser. The closest I got to it was here:

    File Formats

     

    • Retired:
      • Native serialized binary
        • *.daz - Daz Studio Scene
        • *.dso - Daz Studio Object
        • *.dsd - Daz Studio Deltas
        • *.dsv - Daz Studio Vertex Map
        • Have been deprecated since the introduction of DSON
      • Daz Script 1
        • *.ds - Daz Script 1 Ascii
        • *.dsb - Daz Script 1 Binary
          • Potentially Encrypted if file version is < 3.0
        • Has been deprecated since the introduction of Daz Script 2
        • The format itself has not been removed (yet), automatic conversion has

     

     This is from Evergreen and I have to explain I have always struggled to understand the difference between the Poser shaders and 3Delight shader along with their designations: .mc6, .pz2, .ds, .dsb(?)., .rar and if .daz was being retired, why wouldn't .pp2? Is it something to do with this QT and wether it has been kept updated in the Poser products and not in Daz's? But somehow my brain linked them together as antiquated programming and wouldn't work in DS6.

    Regardless, I am using all of Code66's conversion programs and others, along with the built-in 'Save-as a Support Asset' for .ds materials to convert to Iray to upgrade all my old Daz and Poser products that I have curated from my purchases and installed onto my Windows 11 and MacMini Pro M4 because I love and use them. And when I find an artist or DAZ has already updated them, I give deep thanks to them.

    But I never meant to cause a problem for Daz and create a mess that the moderators would have to clean up. 

    Mary

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,248

    memcneil70 said:

    Richard Haseltine said:

    butterflyfish said:

    memcneil70 said:

    I don't remember where I read it, but it was my impression from the Daz Studio discussions. I apologise. But will 3DL/Poser materials be supported by DS2025?

    I just opened DS2025 and the thumbnail for BRC - Serenity, SKU 3302, is a ! mark, but the scene file does load and I was able to do a spot render. But The Ballroom, SKU 2931, which has .duf files has their thumbnails showing up.

     

    As I understand it, 3DL will not be supported. But Poser files work just fine.

    Yes, there is no inherent connection between Poser files and 3Delight - for a while imported objects got the 3delight Daz Default sahder applied, but now they get the current render engine's default shader. Where a Poser file has a companion script to aply 3Delight materials that will not be productive 9and a lot will be in the original Daz Script, not the Daz Script 2 introduced in DS 3, for which auto-conversion is no longer available - Qt change - so hopefully they will load with the base Poser settings and will need adjusting for best results).

    I spent most of yesterday going back over the Evergreen thread and the 'then' 16 pages of the DS 2025/6 thread to see if I could find where I made a connection between 3DL and Poser. The closest I got to it was here:

    File Formats

     

    • Retired:
      • Native serialized binary
        • *.daz - Daz Studio Scene
        • *.dso - Daz Studio Object
        • *.dsd - Daz Studio Deltas
        • *.dsv - Daz Studio Vertex Map
        • Have been deprecated since the introduction of DSON
      • Daz Script 1
        • *.ds - Daz Script 1 Ascii
        • *.dsb - Daz Script 1 Binary
          • Potentially Encrypted if file version is < 3.0
        • Has been deprecated since the introduction of Daz Script 2
        • The format itself has not been removed (yet), automatic conversion has

     

     This is from Evergreen and I have to explain I have always struggled to understand the difference between the Poser shaders and 3Delight shader along with their designations: .mc6, .pz2, .ds, .dsb(?)., .rar and if .daz was being retired, why wouldn't .pp2? Is it something to do with this QT and wether it has been kept updated in the Poser products and not in Daz's? But somehow my brain linked them together as antiquated programming and wouldn't work in DS6.

    Regardless, I am using all of Code66's conversion programs and others, along with the built-in 'Save-as a Support Asset' for .ds materials to convert to Iray to upgrade all my old Daz and Poser products that I have curated from my purchases and installed onto my Windows 11 and MacMini Pro M4 because I love and use them. And when I find an artist or DAZ has already updated them, I give deep thanks to them.

    But I never meant to cause a problem for Daz and create a mess that the moderators would have to clean up. 

    Mary

    It is easy to misinterpret things - we should have corrected it more quickly.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,248

    Leana said:

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Standard RSL shaders/materials were converted without reference to any part of the 3Delight code, as far as I know, so they should work as before. Custom shaders aren't now, and I expect won't be in future, converted - those will end up as a plain default material and need manually setting up; I think one of more of the dragons have thatr issue in their mouths.

    Yes custom RSL shaders were already a problem when used in Iray, but I was thinking of materials using for example the basic 3DL shaders, UberSurface or AoA shaders which were automatically converted before.

    It is in fact covered in the "Evergreen" thread

    • Retired:
      • 3Delight
        • Automatic "on the fly" (at render-time) conversion of certain RSL-based materials, to their respective Iray equivalent MDL-based materials, when NVIDIA Iray is the active engine, remains functional

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/727631/daz-studio-2025-6-25-2025-x-evergreen

  • LeanaLeana Posts: 12,784

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Leana said:

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Standard RSL shaders/materials were converted without reference to any part of the 3Delight code, as far as I know, so they should work as before. Custom shaders aren't now, and I expect won't be in future, converted - those will end up as a plain default material and need manually setting up; I think one of more of the dragons have thatr issue in their mouths.

    Yes custom RSL shaders were already a problem when used in Iray, but I was thinking of materials using for example the basic 3DL shaders, UberSurface or AoA shaders which were automatically converted before.

    It is in fact covered in the "Evergreen" thread

    • Retired:
      • 3Delight
        • Automatic "on the fly" (at render-time) conversion of certain RSL-based materials, to their respective Iray equivalent MDL-based materials, when NVIDIA Iray is the active engine, remains functional

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/727631/daz-studio-2025-6-25-2025-x-evergreen

    I don't remember it being there when I read that thread initially, but I might have missed it. Glad to see it clearly stated.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,248

    Leana said:

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Leana said:

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Standard RSL shaders/materials were converted without reference to any part of the 3Delight code, as far as I know, so they should work as before. Custom shaders aren't now, and I expect won't be in future, converted - those will end up as a plain default material and need manually setting up; I think one of more of the dragons have thatr issue in their mouths.

    Yes custom RSL shaders were already a problem when used in Iray, but I was thinking of materials using for example the basic 3DL shaders, UberSurface or AoA shaders which were automatically converted before.

    It is in fact covered in the "Evergreen" thread

    • Retired:
      • 3Delight
        • Automatic "on the fly" (at render-time) conversion of certain RSL-based materials, to their respective Iray equivalent MDL-based materials, when NVIDIA Iray is the active engine, remains functional

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/727631/daz-studio-2025-6-25-2025-x-evergreen

    I don't remember it being there when I read that thread initially, but I might have missed it. Glad to see it clearly stated.

    No, I think it was added a little later - the thread does get updated periodically, to avoid having a stratographic column of increasingly ancient and innaccurate itreations build up.

  • ArtAngelArtAngel Posts: 1,955
    edited May 2025

    Thank you everyone. Your answers were very helpful. Part of me wants to embrace 2025 and the other part is battling eye twitches (Peter Sellars' Boss in The Pink Panther movie) because I am a DAZ collector where each purchase has a purpose and Version 2025 might make me feel and look like . . . well . . . a DAZ hoarder. So, two questions come to mind

    1. Are the updates typically presented as new products for sale?
    2. And, I am assuming if zips I formerly downloaded manually, ,are updated for free, once it updates in DIM, it also update as a zip in the Product Llibrary?

    Which means if I want accurate manual downloads as a backup, I should manually redownload the zip, is that correct? I ask because some zips such as templates etc are not included as DIM downloads.

    Post edited by ArtAngel on
  • KenYanoKenYano Posts: 135

    I just started using Genesis 3 again and more exstensively for animation. It's so much more smoother, like G9.

  • LeanaLeana Posts: 12,784

    ArtAngel said:

    Thank you everyone. Your answers were very helpful. Part of me wants to embrace 2025 and the other part is battling eye twitches (Peter Sellars' Boss in The Pink Panther movie) because I am a DAZ collector where each purchase has a purpose and Version 2025 might make me feel and look like . . . well . . . a DAZ hoarder. So, two questions come to mind

    1. Are the updates typically presented as new products for sale?
    2. And, I am assuming if zips I formerly downloaded manually, ,are updated for free, once it updates in DIM, it also update as a zip in the Product Llibrary?

    Which means if I want accurate manual downloads as a backup, I should manually redownload the zip, is that correct? I ask because some zips such as templates etc are not included as DIM downloads.

    My answer is based on what happened when DS4 was released:

    Creating a DS2025 version of a plugin will require a different amount of work depending on the plugin and what features of DS and the SDK it used: for some a simple recompile with the new SDK might be enough, for others a few changes will be required, and for some it might require a major or even full rewrite. For example plugins interacting with the viewport will likely require more work as the viewport changed a lot.

    • If it's a simple recompile or minor changes, there's a good chance (but no guarantee) it will be offered as a free update of the existing product. In that case the DS2025 version will be provided as separate install files. Both versions will remain available.
    • If it requires major work or a full rewrite, the PA might decide to offer it as a new product for sale to compensate for their work.

     

    Some scripts will also need to be updated due to changes in the scripting engine and SDK. Again, the amount of work required and whether it will be updated for free or not will depend on the script and the PA's choice. Contrary to plugins which require fully separate versions, it might be possible to produce a version of some of those scripts which works in both DS4 and DS2025, so if it's provided as an update there might not be separate install files.

  • PixelPiePixelPie Posts: 371
    edited May 2025

    ArtAngel said:

    Thank you everyone. Your answers were very helpful. Part of me wants to embrace 2025 and the other part is battling eye twitches (Peter Sellars' Boss in The Pink Panther movie) because I am a DAZ collector where each purchase has a purpose and Version 2025 might make me feel and look like . . . well . . . a DAZ hoarder. So, two questions come to mind

    1. Are the updates typically presented as new products for sale?
    2. And, I am assuming if zips I formerly downloaded manually, ,are updated for free, once it updates in DIM, it also update as a zip in the Product Llibrary?

    Which means if I want accurate manual downloads as a backup, I should manually redownload the zip, is that correct? I ask because some zips such as templates etc are not included as DIM downloads.

    @ArtAngel laugh you just made my day.. love the Pink Panther movies..regulary play youtube clips of those...

    Really informative thread and keeping this bookmarked, + + thanks everyone

    This is exactly how I feel.  I am a collector as well and yes, I am trying to manually download everything as a backup. 

    My questions are: 

    1. If I install multiple versions of DAZ - Has anyone tried this yet successfully and are there any hickups?

    2. My product library question:

    DIM shows the most recent: 4.24 --version 4.24.03 - which is the same as what is available from the product library; but my product library online also shows: Daz Studio 2025/6.x "added manually" but "inactive" and there is no available downloads in the library; what does this mean? I am sorry if that was covered already blush

     

    Post edited by PixelPie on
  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 7,174
    @PixelPie: in response to question 1: I do have multiple versions of DS on my PC. DS is designed to work alongside the Beta, so it actually behaves rather well. I have V4.11, 4.14, 4.15, 4.16, and 4.20 through to 4.23 on my machine for testing freebies on different versions. To be able to do this I do a manual install. I put 4.11 in a directory called 'Program Files/Daz Studio 4.11' on my DS drive. Then before installing the new version I temporarily rename the 4.11 directory as 'Daz Studio 4.11 old'. This prevents the next version installer finding v4.11 and uninstalling it. Now I do a manual install of the new version into a custom directory called 'Daz Studio 4.14', and then rename the original 4.11 to the directory's previous name. Finally, I copy the plugins with no updates from 4.11 to to the V4.14 plugin directory and set up shortcuts to the 4.11 version. Now 4.11 and 4.14 will live alongside each other. Repeat as each new version is released. You will find the dForce Kernels re-compile each time you switch version, but that's the only thing I've come across keeping multiple versions. I don't have Studio 2025 because it's DIM only and as I don't want my custom install messed with, I don't use DIM. Regards, Richard.
  • LeanaLeana Posts: 12,784
    edited May 2025

    DS4 general release, DS4 beta and DS2025 alpha all install in different folders and have their own preferences. You can have one version of each of them installed on your computer without problem, for example I have 4.23 general release, 4.24 beta and 2025 alpha installed on mine.

    DS2025 is an alpha version for now. Like betas it can only be installed via DIM. The product is "inactive" in your library as there is no product page in the store.
    To see it in DIM you need to check that it's set to show "public build" release channel in DIM preferences.

     

    Post edited by Leana on
  • PixelPiePixelPie Posts: 371

    Thanks so much!! @richardandtracy ...Will copy these instructions.. Right now I have 4.22, 4.23, and now 4.24, I know I have some older versions archived as well.. I usually use the models manually in DAZ and other software, but thanks so much this is truly helpful!!

    Thanks @Leana Ill check the public build

    Perfect now I can have the best of all worlds and my older stuff will work!

  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 7,174
    @PixiePie It is important to rename the older directory - I didn't do it with 4.10 and 4.12, which is why I'm missing those versions. Best of luck. Regards, Richard.
  • riftwitchriftwitch Posts: 1,439

    kyoto kid said:

    ...thanks. So lookw like I will need to keep 4.x. around.

    BTW is there a way to save the installer for 4.24 that is in the DIM until I can finally upgrade my system to Win 11?  I cannot install it now as it would overwrite the current version I am on (4.21.0.5) which is the last version built on an Nvidia driver that supports Win 7. Not about to go back to glacial C

    PU rendering when I have 12 GB of VRAM.

     

    I'm kind of in the same boat. My ancient Win7 machine doesn't handle iray well, so I've stuck with 3dl all these years. And my system simply won't work at all with Dforce. I'll get a new computer someday, but for now I'm stuck with what I've got. 

  • NylonGirlNylonGirl Posts: 2,234

    GhostofMacbeth said:

    There is a good chance that they will not work but will probably be updated. Some do work, some do not.

    Last time, I had the converse problem. They updated the plugins to work with a newer version of DAZ Studio and then the plugins didn't work with my version of DAZ Studio. I'm just going to have to avoid updating everything.

  • LorraineLorraine Posts: 894

    NylonGirl said:

    GhostofMacbeth said:

    There is a good chance that they will not work but will probably be updated. Some do work, some do not.

    Last time, I had the converse problem. They updated the plugins to work with a newer version of DAZ Studio and then the plugins didn't work with my version of DAZ Studio. I'm just going to have to avoid updating everything.

    That's why I update manually. Programs, plugins, everything. And I save all the installers.

     

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,905

    riftwitch said:

    kyoto kid said:

    ...thanks. So lookw like I will need to keep 4.x. around.

    BTW is there a way to save the installer for 4.24 that is in the DIM until I can finally upgrade my system to Win 11?  I cannot install it now as it would overwrite the current version I am on (4.21.0.5) which is the last version built on an Nvidia driver that supports Win 7. Not about to go back to glacial C

    PU rendering when I have 12 GB of VRAM.

     

    I'm kind of in the same boat. My ancient Win7 machine doesn't handle iray well, so I've stuck with 3dl all these years. And my system simply won't work at all with Dforce. I'll get a new computer someday, but for now I'm stuck with what I've got. 

    ...I can render in Iray fairly well as i have a 12 GB Maxwell Titan-X.  dForce sometimes gives me fits as it will occasionally crash the display driver which requires a full reboot to restore.

    The main limit is system memory (only 24 GB) so it occasionally dumps to the virtual memory partition on the HDD which then slows things down..  I generally don't go beyond render quality 2  

  • deepred6502deepred6502 Posts: 391

    kyoto kid said:

    riftwitch said:

    kyoto kid said:

    ...thanks. So lookw like I will need to keep 4.x. around.

    BTW is there a way to save the installer for 4.24 that is in the DIM until I can finally upgrade my system to Win 11?  I cannot install it now as it would overwrite the current version I am on (4.21.0.5) which is the last version built on an Nvidia driver that supports Win 7. Not about to go back to glacial C

    PU rendering when I have 12 GB of VRAM.

     

    I'm kind of in the same boat. My ancient Win7 machine doesn't handle iray well, so I've stuck with 3dl all these years. And my system simply won't work at all with Dforce. I'll get a new computer someday, but for now I'm stuck with what I've got. 

    ...I can render in Iray fairly well as i have a 12 GB Maxwell Titan-X.  dForce sometimes gives me fits as it will occasionally crash the display driver which requires a full reboot to restore.

    The main limit is system memory (only 24 GB) so it occasionally dumps to the virtual memory partition on the HDD which then slows things down..  I generally don't go beyond render quality 2  

    I managed to snap up an Asus RTX5060Ti with 16GB VRAM, which so far seems the best value of its type. Uses less power than the models it replaces while still being faster.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,905

    ...I need perform a serious upgrade to my 13 year old system (about 1,160 USD which is a month's pension income)  to move from Win 7 to Win 11.and use the 12 GB 3060  (that is still sitting in the box) as my old X58 MB's BIOS and PCIe 2.0 expansion slots won't recognise it 

    Would love an RTX Pro 4000  with 3 times the shader units, 24 GB of VRAM and a TDP of 140 W, but that's another 1,200 USD.

  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 7,174
    One thing about old models used on modern hardware. If the shaders are not updated, they do render fast. However, if the old models are updated, they take as long as new models to render. Regards, Richard
  • alan bard newcomeralan bard newcomer Posts: 2,334
    edited May 2025

    kyoto kid said:

    ...thanks. So lookw like I will need to keep 4.x. around.

    BTW is there a way to save the installer for 4.24 that is in the DIM until I can finally upgrade my system to Win 11?  I cannot install it now as it would overwrite the current version I am on (4.21.0.5) which is the last version built on an Nvidia driver that supports Win 7. Not about to go back to glacial CPU rendering when I have 12 GB of VRAM.

    before downloading any new studio version (assuming you don't allow the delete after install option) you can copy the installer out of the download folder
    And even if you have lost that you can drag your entire daz 3d studio folder from the programs folder on the C drive to another drive and then if you install the newest edition the old one will still start from the old location.
    I have a 4.12 that will run no matter what else is running. 
    But save all your installers.  

    Post edited by alan bard newcomer on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,905

    ...I've done that since the days of Daz 1.8. The only one I am missing is 4.6 as I accidentally installed a newer version over it.

    I downloaded the manual installer for the 4.24.0.3 general release from the Content Library and backed it up as well.

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