So...the new HD Morph details are underwhelming...
Mr Bowen
Posts: 404
Just compare the Eva 7 HD promo renders with the Ninive HD promo renders. There is little difference between standard Eva 7 and Eva 7 HD by what is shown on the product page. The hd morphs seem to sort of get it to the definition of a regular Gen2 morph. Why did Daz think it would be a good idea to lower the figure polys? Honestly, I would like to know. I like the more life-like details of Gen2's HD mophs much more. They actually look HD. I'm not trying to insult anyone. I am just disappointed with lack of detail. Last Gen's detail with current Gen's improvements would have been something I would have preferred. I doubt that I am the only one.
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Greetings,
I do this thing, where I cross my eyes and merge the images. Areas which are different 'pop' when I do that, they sort of shimmer in my vision. It was really, really hard to find any differences for Eva, Karen or Bethany.
I can only hope that the reason is that someone screwed up the promos and didn't set render-time subdivision high enough on the 'HD' promo images, because there's absolutely no way that the differences are worth even $14, much less the $39.95 full price. The one which really shocked me was the lack of differences on the lips. In G2F HD's, the lips were very detailed, in Karen there is almost no difference whatsoever. There's the barest hint of a little more shadow on the center of the lip, and that's it.
Seriously, I think the promo artist dialed in the HD morphs, but didn't dial up the render-time subdivision. It's the only explanation.
-- Morgan
Yes! I too was struck by the lack of details in the lips.
I never bought the V7 HD Morphs. I just now looked at them and saw that they are much more detailed than the Eva HD promos. The Eva promos and the fact that transferred characters lack some detail made it seem possibly worse than what it seems. The V7 promos do encourage a bit. I really hope they did just put the wrong renders in the Eva HD page. because...yeash...
Karen 7 HD Product page renders...
I have a lot of HD for G2F... none for G3F as they are very expensive and seem to offer little benefit, at least from the promos; I prefer not to buy and ask for refunds just to see what something is like so haven't been tempted.
The fact that the product really, really needs the side-by-side comparrison is really telling imo...
Especially as to be sure, there is a label explaining which is which.
G2F looks better from the promos.
Yeah, the G2F versions seem to include a lot of skin detail, like pores and such. That doesn't seem to be the case for G3 editions.
Further reasons why I'm hoping G2 products will continue to be made and sold. :) Look at the increased detail G2 offers you, product creators!
I think part of the issue is that the Iray renders have more/stronger SSS and it's washing out fine relief. It would be interesting to see the two sets rendered under the same materials and lighting in the same engine - the differences might then be less extreme.
The V7 HD details are great. I only have a few of the G2F ones, and I found those to be very good as well. I saw the promos for the new gals when they came out and didn't find them to be a big deal.
However it is pretty noticeable that the new morphs are rendered properly with the right sub-d! You can see details that did not exist before. However minor. If they did not increase the sub-D, then you would not see those extra details.
We need to be very cautious with the HD packages because it's mostly a marketing thing. Lots of characters say HD but you can't see the improvement. At least with the Daz Original HD packs they show you what the difference is. Can't say that for PA products.
In my Art Studio thread Half Life said this about normal maps and HD morph:
Does anyone know if this is correct? Is it true that the normal maps and the HD morphs are trying to do the same thing and you should only use one or the other? Is it true that the HD morphs work better with Iray render than the normal maps?
Another point from the linked comment is that the V7 normal maps should only be used with the V7 body shape. Do the V7 HD morphs work better with different body shapes?
V7 HD morphs work fine on other shapes, even if people tell you otherwise. It's the same with older HD morphs too. while the HD morphs are sculpted for a particular shape, they still can add details to other shapes and be pleasant. Just like any morph matching...some things may not go well together (like HD cellulite on a thin fairy would probably be a bad match)
I think the V7 normals should only be used on the V7 UV obviously, but I can't see why they would not work if the shape is dialed differently...Again they wouldn't match the promo art, but if you are dialing in your own features then obviously you aren't trying to render the same image as the promo.
I have used the V7 normals on non-V7 shapes, nothing broke. Someone will need to provide visual proof that damage happens :)
Also, HD morphs and Normals don't literally do the same exact thing. Though in this case they were likey designed to give you similar or the same result. The normal maps were probably baked from the HD morph. But Normal maps and HD morphs work differently. So which works best for you will depend on several factors.
Ok, here is Bethany 7
All Pictures with Iray and the same Light.
The G2F HDs are a lot stronger in most Areas :(
Normal maps set the polygon facing, so using a map on a very different shape may have unexpected results - soemone in another thread had issues around the lower breast with the Bethany 7 normal maps applied to a base G3F.
Link by any chance? Were they even able to show pictures LOL. Curious to see what to look out for.
I don't know much about those HD morphs, but when they introduce more detail at a polygon level, I can see where this contradicts normal maps, which are often used to introduce detail to a surface where there is actually none. Say the HD morph now provides a new surface, which has a surface normal that is not there without HD, that normal can be different than the one provided by the normal map and that can produce false results.
That's the theory at least. :)
On the morphs: I'm not excited to spend another 100+ bucks (on sale) for them. And it feels just not right, just having bought the Pro packs and now they're actually telling you, what you got is sub par. :-(
Edit: I'm curious where the bumps/pores in the HD skin come from, which you can see in the first pair of images. Surely that kind of detail is not added to the mesh, is it?
I think the HD morphs can be a great idea for pumping out that increased detail but I'd like to have more control over each zone. For instance look at the knee HD morphs... They look good standing at the pose in which they were created but when you pose the knee... It looks terrible! the skin folds don't exist when you bend the knee or shouldn't. I'd like to be able to choose to turn off or have them turn off when the knee is bent. Same goes for other areas on the figure. HD morphs could be useful in expressions and have them turn off when you change the expression. Laugh lines come to mind.
The idea of region specific morphs makes a lot of sense, but not sure worth a lot of energy for content creators. Even for the body morphs some PAs have said not worth a dial for HD on and off.
there are some face specific HD morphs that came with the Daz face morph pack.
https://www.daz3d.com/genesis-3-female-head-morphs
Maybe not laught lines, but
and a few more I skipped for speed :)
Muscularity morphs are region specific (though don't fit the example you gave). I think it demonstrates may be some willingness to meet the region specific control needs.
https://www.daz3d.com/musculature-hd-morphs-for-genesis-3-female-s
And creator creature from yesteryear had region specific HD morphs out of need. So while most HD moprhs likley won't go to this detail, we might find a few here and there.
I too was pretty shocked when I saw those HD packs. The promos look really bad compared to the Gen2 HD morphs. It would be nice if, as Richard said, someone could post a better comparison in 3Delight or in Iray with adequate lighting. It would be even nicer if DAZ had done a better job in the first place.
My first thought after looking at the pormos was "wait, are they just selling...nothing for $ 40?" Although things get a bit better with Karen 7, that much I'll admit.
*Edit*: and someone posted a comparison before I was even done typing. Good job, DAZ boards!
Although I'm still not really blown away by the HD morphs.
I'd happily pay more for the morphs seperated; chest, waist, hips, legs, arms, head; being able to dial in different amounts would subtly alter the look, and also use less resources of parts not needed.
Not bought a G3 yet, and looking at them I have no desire to, but even so, seperated ones I would.
The lighting that is creating black lines of shadow don't help the promo renders either.
These were rendered in 3DL : One with Bethany Head HD Details the other without. Anyone spot which one is which?
After flipping a coin, and doing a tarot reading, my guess is the 2nd one is HD. Am I right?! What do I win?
Nope. The first image is the HD version.
I bought all three HD add-ons (for Bethany, Eva and Karen). I have just requested a refund for all three.
Can hardly tell a difference.
Plus waay overpriced for HD morphs.
I seem to recall that some of the early Genesis 2 HD add-ons included HD texture sets as well as the morphs, which went some way to justifying the price of those. I think I will steer clear of the Genesis 3 HD add-ons, even at discounted prices.
texture sizes are the least of our concerns. Trust me the standard 4096 texture sizes (for a single surface) is plenty for the vast majority of uses. Including most peoples pinups. But I did find the HD details pretty strong in the few G2F HD morphs I have.
i sence an ULTRA HD expansion coming ;-)
I am not surprised, if something is going to sell less it needs to cost more for those few who really want it.
I know a few DAZ studio users who dial down any HD even in clothes and as a Carrara user I cannot even use it or G3F nor does it export as FBX for iClone, unsure of high end apps like Max and Maya so a DAZ studio only feature most likely and many do not have the hardware to handle it being hobbyists, my apps of choice actually handle the high poly legacy figures better than even the base genesis+ figures so unsure really of the point of HD morphs myself, I assume it is more for the gaming aspect as DAZ seems to be marketing for that, so high quality cut scenes and art doable with the lower poly figures.
probably best for extreme close up shots and not full body shots as with those you gotta zoom out to get the full figure in the render so you don't see as much detail compared to a close up head or body render
full body render view of v6 v6hd v7 and v7hd like I said above full bodyshots because not close up to get full body view you may not see much difference between normal and hd versions where as extreme close ups you may see the difference don't have the other g3 hd morphs to compare