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Victoria 7 Out of Range UVs

Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,830
edited December 1969 in The Commons

Has anyone else found this to be odd.

1. Create a new Victoria 7.
2. Export her from DS as an .obj.
3. Open UV Mapper Pro or any other OBJ manipulator. Load in your Victoria 7.obj
4. You will notice that the face is the only map that is within range, all of the others are out of range.

I find this particularly interesting because the models render properly but according to the templates the polygon are located outside of range. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? I'd love to build my own textures for V7 if I could but I'm not sure how to get around this issue. Any help is greatly appreciated.

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Comments

  • Lissa_xyzLissa_xyz Posts: 6,116
    edited June 2015

    Gen3 uses the UDIM method of laying out UVs.

    http://bneall.blogspot.com/p/udim-guide.html

    Post edited by Lissa_xyz on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    To steal from Oldsmobile...

    'These aren't your father's UVs.'

    Like Vaskania said, the UDIM is a new method of doing the UVs...and if the tools used don't support UDIM, out of range is what you will get.

  • dizzy88dizzy88 Posts: 51
    edited December 1969

    OBJ Export -> Check "Collapse UV tiles" will put them all on the same tile, like "traditional" UVs.

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,830
    edited December 1969

    Thanks a great deal all of you. I seem to have a lot to learn about this sort of thing. Fun fun!

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,830
    edited December 1969

    darrick.yee said:
    OBJ Export -> Check "Collapse UV tiles" will put them all on the same tile, like "traditional" UVs.

    Technically it creates a completely different mesh doesn't it? Maybe what I need is for someone to help me understand how the tiles are arranged and how applications can read them. I did read the link that was provided and it did answer several questions, but it raised a few as well. UDIM is a new technology, but it must not be all that new because Bryce has no problem reading the offsets nor does Carrara. For example, Bryce hasn't been updated in years but it seems to understand how to read these offsets. Carrara as well is able to read the offsets.

    Any further help is greatly appreciated.

  • dizzy88dizzy88 Posts: 51
    edited December 1969

    Rashad Carter said:
    darrick.yee said:
    OBJ Export -> Check "Collapse UV tiles" will put them all on the same tile, like "traditional" UVs.

    Technically it creates a completely different mesh doesn't it? Maybe what I need is for someone to help me understand how the tiles are arranged and how applications can read them. I did read the link that was provided and it did answer several questions, but it raised a few as well. UDIM is a new technology, but it must not be all that new because Bryce has no problem reading the offsets nor does Carrara. For example, Bryce hasn't been updated in years but it seems to understand how to read these offsets. Carrara as well is able to read the offsets.

    Any further help is greatly appreciated.

    It doesn't affect the mesh at all - it just affects how the mesh's vertices map to UV coordinates.

    With "traditional" UVs, UV coordinates must be between 0 and 1. So if you want to apply multiple image maps to the same object, you have to stack the UVs. UDIM lets you use coordinates outside of that range, so that you can keep UVs from overlapping.

    For example, the filename for V7's face map ends in 1001. This tells DAZ that the UV coordinates for that map will lie between [0, 1] in the U direction and [0, 1] in the V direction.

    V7's torso map ends with 1002. This tells DAZ that the coordinates will be in [1, 2] in the U direction and [0, 1] in the V direction. Legs end in 1003, which means it maps to [2, 3] in the U direction, etc.

    So the application needs to "understand" the relationship between filenames and UV coordinates, or else it will consider U and V values greater than 1 to be out of range. In that case, you need to stack all of the UVs onto the same tile - i.e., subtract 1 from the U coordinates for UVs in the 1002 tile, subtract 2 from the UVs in the 1003 tile, etc.

  • NadinoNadino Posts: 258
    edited June 2015

    My understanding of UDIM in this case is that it is just like any of the other UV sets. Meaning no special magic to make it work.
    It's another way of laying out your UV islands if you will. Maybe even considered alternate UV coordinates?
    It's not specific or only for G3F - you can make UDIM compatible UVs for the G2 figures as well.
    Not every program supports UDIM and for those that don't the "Collapse UV Tiles" should be used.

    I've had no issues with the new figures exported with and without this option checked. :)

    EDIT: darrick.yee explained it better than me :)

    Post edited by Nadino on
  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,830
    edited December 1969

    darrick.yee said:
    Rashad Carter said:
    darrick.yee said:
    OBJ Export -> Check "Collapse UV tiles" will put them all on the same tile, like "traditional" UVs.

    Technically it creates a completely different mesh doesn't it? Maybe what I need is for someone to help me understand how the tiles are arranged and how applications can read them. I did read the link that was provided and it did answer several questions, but it raised a few as well. UDIM is a new technology, but it must not be all that new because Bryce has no problem reading the offsets nor does Carrara. For example, Bryce hasn't been updated in years but it seems to understand how to read these offsets. Carrara as well is able to read the offsets.

    Any further help is greatly appreciated.

    It doesn't affect the mesh at all - it just affects how the mesh's vertices map to UV coordinates.

    With "traditional" UVs, UV coordinates must be between 0 and 1. So if you want to apply multiple image maps to the same object, you have to stack the UVs. UDIM lets you use coordinates outside of that range, so that you can keep UVs from overlapping.

    For example, the filename for V7's face map ends in 1001. This tells DAZ that the UV coordinates for that map will lie between [0, 1] in the U direction and [0, 1] in the V direction.

    V7's torso map ends with 1002. This tells DAZ that the coordinates will be in [1, 2] in the U direction and [0, 1] in the V direction. Legs end in 1003, which means it maps to [2, 3] in the U direction, etc.

    So the application needs to "understand" the relationship between filenames and UV coordinates, or else it will consider U and V values greater than 1 to be out of range. In that case, you need to stack all of the UVs onto the same tile - i.e., subtract 1 from the U coordinates for UVs in the 1002 tile, subtract 2 from the UVs in the 1003 tile, etc.

    I almost understand. I comprehend the offset UVs ideal, I just dont understand how to manually apply values greater than 1. I need to do some home work on my own. Thanks again Darrik!

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,830
    edited December 1969

    Nadino said:
    My understanding of UDIM in this case is that it is just like any of the other UV sets. Meaning no special magic to make it work.
    It's another way of laying out your UV islands if you will. Maybe even considered alternate UV coordinates?
    It's not specific or only for G3F - you can make UDIM compatible UVs for the G2 figures as well.
    Not every program supports UDIM and for those that don't the "Collapse UV Tiles" should be used.

    I've had no issues with the new figures exported with and without this option checked. :)

    EDIT: darrick.yee explained it better than me :)

    Is the information saved in the .mtl file?

  • NadinoNadino Posts: 258
    edited December 1969

    Rashad Carter said:
    Nadino said:
    My understanding of UDIM in this case is that it is just like any of the other UV sets. Meaning no special magic to make it work.
    It's another way of laying out your UV islands if you will. Maybe even considered alternate UV coordinates?
    It's not specific or only for G3F - you can make UDIM compatible UVs for the G2 figures as well.
    Not every program supports UDIM and for those that don't the "Collapse UV Tiles" should be used.

    I've had no issues with the new figures exported with and without this option checked. :)

    EDIT: darrick.yee explained it better than me :)

    Is the information saved in the .mtl file?

    I'm not sure, I'm sorry. I usually delete that file as soon as I export - do need them in Blender.

  • NadinoNadino Posts: 258
    edited December 1969

    Actually, only surface names/settings are saved in the .mtl file.
    OMGosh I had a duh moment LOL :)

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    Actually, the UV mapping are part of the obj file.

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,414
    edited June 2015

    Rashad Carter, I wish I had seen that screen-cap a week ago, when I was asking "What is UDIM", lol.

    I'm still a little hazy on what UDIM is, and is not. Tho I guess I was close with my guess.
    (EDIT)
    After reading the rest of that, I think I understand now. And what they were referring to in the 'Interviews' I was directed to, that mostly went over my head.

    darrick.yee said:
    (SNIP)
    It doesn't affect the mesh at all - it just affects how the mesh's vertices map to UV coordinates.

    With "traditional" UVs, UV coordinates must be between 0 and 1. So if you want to apply multiple image maps to the same object, you have to stack the UVs. UDIM lets you use coordinates outside of that range, so that you can keep UVs from overlapping.

    For example, the filename for V7's face map ends in 1001. This tells DAZ that the UV coordinates for that map will lie between [0, 1] in the U direction and [0, 1] in the V direction.

    V7's torso map ends with 1002. This tells DAZ that the coordinates will be in [1, 2] in the U direction and [0, 1] in the V direction. Legs end in 1003, which means it maps to [2, 3] in the U direction, etc.

    So the application needs to "understand" the relationship between filenames and UV coordinates, or else it will consider U and V values greater than 1 to be out of range. In that case, you need to stack all of the UVs onto the same tile - i.e., subtract 1 from the U coordinates for UVs in the 1002 tile, subtract 2 from the UVs in the 1003 tile, etc.


    The attached pic is incomplete, and so was my understanding of UV mapping before UDIM.
    (EDIT2)
    Added my updated UDIM example image.
    G3F_UDIM_mapping_UVquardnts_001_005crop1.png
    800 x 200 - 31K
    G3F_UDIM_mapping_Guessing_002.png
    719 x 157 - 29K
    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,843
    edited December 1969

    I am glad this thread was started. I see UDIM mapping in lots of game models i use in DS and texture atlas doesn't work on them because of the type of mapping, same for genesis 3 also. Now that i know about the option to Collapse UV tiles, I can use texture atlas again, woohoo!

  • dizzy88dizzy88 Posts: 51
    edited December 1969

    zarcondeegrissom said:
    The attached pic is incomplete, and so was my understanding of UV mapping before UDIM.

    Yeah, that looks right. I don't know if this is possible in DS4, but if you bring G3F into Maya, you can see the UVs laid out in the 8 tiles, same order as in your pic. (If you look closely, you can also see that the U coordinate ranges from 0 to 8.)

    G3F_UDIM.jpg
    1452 x 234 - 168K
  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,414
    edited June 2015

    darrick.yee said:
    zarcondeegrissom said:
    The attached pic is incomplete, and so was my understanding of UV mapping before UDIM.

    Yeah, that looks right. I don't know if this is possible in DS4, but if you bring G3F into Maya, you can see the UVs laid out in the 8 tiles, same order as in your pic. (If you look closely, you can also see that the U coordinate ranges from 0 to 8.)lol, That's what I was just relabeling in MS paint. Attached above in my former post, lol. I think I understand another hurdle to making old maps work on UDIM, lol. I kept looking at the image files on my heard drive, and asking, what's so different, there image files just like before, just stretched differently, lol.

    It was that 0 to 1 for old UV mapping, I didn't know about. So I assumed it was at a pixel level or something. This has been a long week of what UDIM is not, lol.

    Thank you all.
    (EDIT)
    Oh, in DS4, this is all we get. Again, no hint of UV numbers, and it doesn't look any different for each map from before, lol.

    Eye_DazShader_EyeMoisture_ThatMapMustGo_001.png
    620 x 1040 - 60K
    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited December 1969

    I think everything I could have said, was said already. Just wanted to say "Hi" To Rashad :)

    But yeah, you can make your own UV's if needed. I use simple tools like Hexagon and sometimes the limit warning comes up. So I save out the OBJ with UV's that have been fit to the space, and work from there.

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 3,598
    edited June 2015

    Just had a quick play in ZBrush and it looks like you still need to hide parts to be able to export the maps.

    Does anyone know for sure what the workflow for Genesis 3 is in ZBrush?


    Edited to add this is what they look like in UV Layout...I'm surprised at how much red there is on the torso map.

    uvmaps.jpg
    1928 x 1047 - 993K
    Post edited by Pendraia on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,072
    edited December 1969

    It shouldn't, I think, require any updates for most applications to correctly apply textures - most have always wrapped out of range UVs back to the 0,1 range (stretching an item's map beyond the unit square was a primitive way to tile textures).

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,830
    edited December 1969

    Richard Haseltine said:
    It shouldn't, I think, require any updates for most applications to correctly apply textures - most have always wrapped out of range UVs back to the 0,1 range (stretching an item's map beyond the unit square was a primitive way to tile textures).

    Thanks for this as it answered one of my other questions.

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,830
    edited December 1969

    larsmidnatt said:
    I think everything I could have said, was said already. Just wanted to say "Hi" To Rashad :)

    But yeah, you can make your own UV's if needed. I use simple tools like Hexagon and sometimes the limit warning comes up. So I save out the OBJ with UV's that have been fit to the space, and work from there.

    Hello to you. And yes, I am going to do just as you instruct. Thanks

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,830
    edited December 1969

    Pendraia said:
    Just had a quick play in ZBrush and it looks like you still need to hide parts to be able to export the maps.

    Does anyone know for sure what the workflow for Genesis 3 is in ZBrush?


    Edited to add this is what they look like in UV Layout...I'm surprised at how much red there is on the torso map.

    This comes to what I'm wondering. I do not have an application that applied UDIM natively. My concern is that as soon as I save out an obj with the tiles collapsed in some ways this obj file is "different" than the one with the original UDIM coordinates.

    So if for instance I wanted to vend a new V7 skin, I will need access to a high end modeling app with UDIM UV capabilities otherwise I have no way to assign the offset. I guess I could edit the file line per line in notepad to add the correct numbers.

    This has got me thinking its time to invest in Modo.

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 3,598
    edited December 1969

    Rashad Carter said:
    Pendraia said:
    Just had a quick play in ZBrush and it looks like you still need to hide parts to be able to export the maps.

    Does anyone know for sure what the workflow for Genesis 3 is in ZBrush?


    Edited to add this is what they look like in UV Layout...I'm surprised at how much red there is on the torso map.

    This comes to what I'm wondering. I do not have an application that applied UDIM natively. My concern is that as soon as I save out an obj with the tiles collapsed in some ways this obj file is "different" than the one with the original UDIM coordinates.

    So if for instance I wanted to vend a new V7 skin, I will need access to a high end modeling app with UDIM UV capabilities otherwise I have no way to assign the offset. I guess I could edit the file line per line in notepad to add the correct numbers.

    This has got me thinking its time to invest in Modo.

    I'm not sure how it would work in ZBrush but I think it probably would. I'll have to give it a try as noone seems to know the answer. I think with ZBrush it would just be how they deal with multiple maps that requires hiding part of the mesh. The coordinates might still be okay only way to know is to give it a try.

    Hmmm...I would love to have modo but I don't think it has 3D painting does it?

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,414
    edited June 2015

    Pendraia said:
    Rashad Carter said:
    Pendraia said:
    Just had a quick play in ZBrush and it looks like you still need to hide parts to be able to export the maps.

    Does anyone know for sure what the workflow for Genesis 3 is in ZBrush?


    Edited to add this is what they look like in UV Layout...I'm surprised at how much red there is on the torso map.

    This comes to what I'm wondering. I do not have an application that applied UDIM natively. My concern is that as soon as I save out an obj with the tiles collapsed in some ways this obj file is "different" than the one with the original UDIM coordinates.

    So if for instance I wanted to vend a new V7 skin, I will need access to a high end modeling app with UDIM UV capabilities otherwise I have no way to assign the offset. I guess I could edit the file line per line in notepad to add the correct numbers.

    This has got me thinking its time to invest in Modo.

    I'm not sure how it would work in ZBrush but I think it probably would. I'll have to give it a try as noone seems to know the answer. I think with ZBrush it would just be how they deal with multiple maps that requires hiding part of the mesh. The coordinates might still be okay only way to know is to give it a try.

    Hmmm...I would love to have modo but I don't think it has 3D painting does it? It is part of a three-program Billion-dollar suite of software. What your looking for is "MARI".

    MARI, Modo, Nuke, etc.
    http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/products/collectives/
    cool vids, just don't ask what it costs, unless you have an ER standing by to revive you from the shock. :ohh: Oh, it's rent-wear, that is not a one-time buy price.

    Pendraia, Pendraia! (Breaks another ammonia capsule, as another paramedic performs CPR on Rashad Carter)

    (EDIT)
    Then again, I see PTEX support mentioned on the product page, NOTHING regarding UDIM for MARI, hmmm. UDIM is discussed allot in there forum, regarding exporting the stuff for other apps. Looks like MARI can, tho some other apps have difficulty reading UDIM textures (Mudbox, etc).

    MARI_vs_UDIM_chatter_001.png
    769 x 597 - 26K
    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 3,598
    edited December 1969

    zarcondeegrissom said:

    It is part of a three-program Billion-dollar suite of software. What your looking for is "MARI".So an add on to Modo? I haven't seen any of the Modo users I know using anything like that...

    zarcondeegrissom said:

    cool vids, just don't ask what it costs, unless you have an ER standing by to revive you from the shock. :ohh: Oh, it's rent-wear, that is not a one-time buy price.

    Pendraia, Pendraia! (Breaks another ammonia capsule, as another paramedic performs CPR on Rashad Carter)

    rofl...poor Rashad

    You can pick up Modo itself at half price occasionally. At one point I was saving to do so...but I ended up spending the money on something else.
    Pays to wait for it to be on sale.

    Then again, I see PTEX support mentioned on the product page, NOTHING regarding UDIM for MARI, hmmm. UDIM is discussed allot in there forum, regarding exporting the stuff for other apps. Looks like MARI can, tho some other apps have difficulty reading UDIM textures (Mudbox, etc).It will be interesting to see what apps can...

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited June 2015

    Mari had better support UDIM...that's the program that introduced it.

    And there is an Indie version available on Steam for $150...so it isn't THAT bad...the standalone, it's cheaper than a new car...

    Post edited by mjc1016 on
  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,414
    edited December 1969

    Now I know it's been mentioned.

    Collapse UV maps, on export from daz. Helps other apps work with the maps.

    Now when you go to put them back into studio? Is the UV mapping of the 'Collapsed' maps altered so much that they will not work on G3F's UDIM mapping in Daz Studio (especially on an unaltered G3F UV/UDIM)?

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 3,598
    edited December 1969

    mjc1016 said:
    Mari had better support UDIM...that's the program that introduced it.

    And there is an Indie version available on Steam for $150...so it isn't THAT bad...the standalone, it's cheaper than a new car...

    Nice to know...sounds like a good price. Is it easier to use than ZBrush for polypainting?

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    Pendraia said:
    mjc1016 said:
    Mari had better support UDIM...that's the program that introduced it.

    And there is an Indie version available on Steam for $150...so it isn't THAT bad...the standalone, it's cheaper than a new car...

    Nice to know...sounds like a good price. Is it easier to use than ZBrush for polypainting?

    Don't know...

    But there's something nice that is going to be in Blender 2.75, in the 3D painting...it's getting symmetry...

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,414
    edited June 2015

    mjc1016 said:
    Pendraia said:
    mjc1016 said:
    Mari had better support UDIM...that's the program that introduced it.

    And there is an Indie version available on Steam for $150...so it isn't THAT bad...the standalone, it's cheaper than a new car...

    Nice to know...sounds like a good price. Is it easier to use than ZBrush for polypainting?

    Don't know...

    But there's something nice that is going to be in Blender 2.75, in the 3D painting...it's getting symmetry... Something that is just being wasted in my computer, blender. I need to sit down and watch all them Hexagon tutorial vids I purchased tho.

    Is that 'Indie' thing just a rental? and is there a version that dose not require Steam (Steam and my network don't get along at all, it won't even install)?

    P.S. nice looking nose set btw. Pending patch?

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
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