To Spend or not to Spend on G8/8.1 Anymore

kwerkx · September 2022

ArtofGohan said:

AllenArt said:

If you've wanted Daz to close it's doors, that's the FASTEST way to do it. How could they survive if they released one figure and NEVER upgraded it again? Would you want to be using the same figure 20 years from now? I sure wouldn't. Time doesn't stand still. Neither does 3D technology. There are always new things to include and consider and any company that refuses to budge on any of those things is doomed to failure. Maybe they don't update ENOUGH with each generation to suit some people. But at least they do update their figures. And at the price points they offer, frankly, I think we're spoiled and maybe just a teensy bit entitled. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes ;)

Oh I'm not saying like stop making figures altogether, but they can easily just make one model and continue to upgrade it for people for free and it be updated everytime new technology comes out. Problem is Daz is free to use so they need to make money somehow to keep the software free and that is having people buy their new models which I understand and I know most hobbyist artists would stop using Daz if they had to start paying a sub or membership to use it. Would it make everything you get free then including new models? Yes, but that is the price you pay if you buy software. You get it all for free, but your still paying for it in a way through subscription/memberships. I think that is why most have come to terms with the whole genesis iterations coming out every how often. These are to pay the bills for daz studio.

I think Daz pays the bills through a cut of store sales. If that is the case, then volume sales of all assets for all available generations keeps the lights on more than the introduction of one or even a generation of new figures. As I see it, introducing a new generation is risky, there's the canibalization point this thread is based on and a synergy issue (how compatibility between generations maintains or even encourages sales of older assets) to consider. In my opinion, if a DS update does not address the compatibility questions, then I suspect the introduction of G9 was more of an artistic than business decision.

CHWT · September 2022

kwerkx said:

ArtofGohan said:

AllenArt said:

If you've wanted Daz to close it's doors, that's the FASTEST way to do it. How could they survive if they released one figure and NEVER upgraded it again? Would you want to be using the same figure 20 years from now? I sure wouldn't. Time doesn't stand still. Neither does 3D technology. There are always new things to include and consider and any company that refuses to budge on any of those things is doomed to failure. Maybe they don't update ENOUGH with each generation to suit some people. But at least they do update their figures. And at the price points they offer, frankly, I think we're spoiled and maybe just a teensy bit entitled. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes ;)

Oh I'm not saying like stop making figures altogether, but they can easily just make one model and continue to upgrade it for people for free and it be updated everytime new technology comes out. Problem is Daz is free to use so they need to make money somehow to keep the software free and that is having people buy their new models which I understand and I know most hobbyist artists would stop using Daz if they had to start paying a sub or membership to use it. Would it make everything you get free then including new models? Yes, but that is the price you pay if you buy software. You get it all for free, but your still paying for it in a way through subscription/memberships. I think that is why most have come to terms with the whole genesis iterations coming out every how often. These are to pay the bills for daz studio.

I think Daz pays the bills through a cut of store sales. If that is the case, then volume sales of all assets for all available generations keeps the lights on more than the introduction of one or even a generation of new figures. As I see it, introducing a new generation is risky, there's the canibalization point this thread is based on and a synergy issue (how compatibility between generations maintains or even encourages sales of older assets) to consider. In my opinion, if a DS update does not address the compatibility questions, then I suspect the introduction of G9 was more of an artistic than business decision.

I think G9 is introduced because many users wanted generation 9 instead of 8.1, which sounds like an incomplete upgrade.

marble · September 2022

CHWT said:

kwerkx said:

ArtofGohan said:

AllenArt said:

If you've wanted Daz to close it's doors, that's the FASTEST way to do it. How could they survive if they released one figure and NEVER upgraded it again? Would you want to be using the same figure 20 years from now? I sure wouldn't. Time doesn't stand still. Neither does 3D technology. There are always new things to include and consider and any company that refuses to budge on any of those things is doomed to failure. Maybe they don't update ENOUGH with each generation to suit some people. But at least they do update their figures. And at the price points they offer, frankly, I think we're spoiled and maybe just a teensy bit entitled. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes ;)

Oh I'm not saying like stop making figures altogether, but they can easily just make one model and continue to upgrade it for people for free and it be updated everytime new technology comes out. Problem is Daz is free to use so they need to make money somehow to keep the software free and that is having people buy their new models which I understand and I know most hobbyist artists would stop using Daz if they had to start paying a sub or membership to use it. Would it make everything you get free then including new models? Yes, but that is the price you pay if you buy software. You get it all for free, but your still paying for it in a way through subscription/memberships. I think that is why most have come to terms with the whole genesis iterations coming out every how often. These are to pay the bills for daz studio.

I think Daz pays the bills through a cut of store sales. If that is the case, then volume sales of all assets for all available generations keeps the lights on more than the introduction of one or even a generation of new figures. As I see it, introducing a new generation is risky, there's the canibalization point this thread is based on and a synergy issue (how compatibility between generations maintains or even encourages sales of older assets) to consider. In my opinion, if a DS update does not address the compatibility questions, then I suspect the introduction of G9 was more of an artistic than business decision.

I think G9 is introduced because many users wanted generation 9 instead of 8.1, which sounds like an incomplete upgrade.

When did DAZ ever consider what users want? Users want soft body physics or better animation tools but we get G9.

Pendraia · September 2022

Panzer Emerald said:

Pendraia said:

Many even here were released for both for at least 6 months if I remember correctly, that said I'm getting older all the time and the memory is the first thing to go. Many are switching to La Femme or Dawn but there is still a number that refuse to switch from what I've seen.

Dawn is a great figure if you're looking for something more homely and "average" to fill out the runtime. Not saying that as a slam, sometimes it's good to have a not-supermodel idealized human figure to fill up a scene or have a character based upon. It's a shame she all but died on the vine after a few months when big name PAs stopped supporting her for whatever the reasons, I thought and still think she's useful every now and then, even if I can't load her into Blender, which is where I do the bulk of my 3D reference set up nowadays. (No opinion on La Femme since me no gusta Poser and it doesn't even run on Mac anyways lmao. But I digress)

Anyhow, jumping a bit off of what Pendraia said, I do recall there being a lot of V4 product being released alongside Genesis stuff for a few months on Daz's storefront before it just tapered off entirely, barring a few multifigure items like hair. Unless things in the asset creation department are easier compared to Genesis -as I recall a big reason why non-Daz Exclusive PAs didn't support Genesis much if at all was because the unisex/androgynous mesh was really difficult to work with at the time-, I foresee G8 continuing to have life on other sites like Rendo, The Other Rendo for Adults, RenderHub, and smaller shops on Gumroad. I mean, heck, V4 still gets content released for her everyso often, don't underestimate the stubbornness of some creators as they get older. (I was 23 when I started my DS use and now I'm 35, go figure)

A few days later, I'm... still largely ambivalent to G9, but I'll likely pass on the whole generation outside of poses with a converter tool.

I always find it funny that PA's found Genesis one so hard to work with as it was the first figure I actually was able to make clothing for. I think the idea of such a radical change from 2 figures to one was part of the reason and also many vendors at the time were poser users not DS users. With maybe a nod to ds users with the shaders they provided if you were lucky.

As for Dawn, any base model can be morphed into a different look and would love to discuss this further with you in another thread.

Image is Dawn and Genesis 3

Richard Haseltine · September 2022

marble said:

CHWT said:

kwerkx said:

ArtofGohan said:

AllenArt said:

If you've wanted Daz to close it's doors, that's the FASTEST way to do it. How could they survive if they released one figure and NEVER upgraded it again? Would you want to be using the same figure 20 years from now? I sure wouldn't. Time doesn't stand still. Neither does 3D technology. There are always new things to include and consider and any company that refuses to budge on any of those things is doomed to failure. Maybe they don't update ENOUGH with each generation to suit some people. But at least they do update their figures. And at the price points they offer, frankly, I think we're spoiled and maybe just a teensy bit entitled. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes ;)

Oh I'm not saying like stop making figures altogether, but they can easily just make one model and continue to upgrade it for people for free and it be updated everytime new technology comes out. Problem is Daz is free to use so they need to make money somehow to keep the software free and that is having people buy their new models which I understand and I know most hobbyist artists would stop using Daz if they had to start paying a sub or membership to use it. Would it make everything you get free then including new models? Yes, but that is the price you pay if you buy software. You get it all for free, but your still paying for it in a way through subscription/memberships. I think that is why most have come to terms with the whole genesis iterations coming out every how often. These are to pay the bills for daz studio.

I think Daz pays the bills through a cut of store sales. If that is the case, then volume sales of all assets for all available generations keeps the lights on more than the introduction of one or even a generation of new figures. As I see it, introducing a new generation is risky, there's the canibalization point this thread is based on and a synergy issue (how compatibility between generations maintains or even encourages sales of older assets) to consider. In my opinion, if a DS update does not address the compatibility questions, then I suspect the introduction of G9 was more of an artistic than business decision.

I think G9 is introduced because many users wanted generation 9 instead of 8.1, which sounds like an incomplete upgrade.

When did DAZ ever consider what users want? Users want soft body physics or better animation tools but we get G9.

Rather different project scales, however. Users did want things that daz has done 9including two parts of physics/simulation so far), but the chnages to Genessi 9 are also addressing thinmgs that users want. Coding for major application features would be a different group, and would probably be on a very different timescale, and may well have a different order of priorities (soft body features are not top of everyone's wishlist - I'd rather have hard-body, and especially the ability for hard bodies to work with hair or fabric to add decorative or functional elements: horse barding was one of the first things I thought of with the initial dForce announcement).

GhostofMacbeth · September 2022

marble said:

CHWT said:

kwerkx said:

ArtofGohan said:

AllenArt said:

If you've wanted Daz to close it's doors, that's the FASTEST way to do it. How could they survive if they released one figure and NEVER upgraded it again? Would you want to be using the same figure 20 years from now? I sure wouldn't. Time doesn't stand still. Neither does 3D technology. There are always new things to include and consider and any company that refuses to budge on any of those things is doomed to failure. Maybe they don't update ENOUGH with each generation to suit some people. But at least they do update their figures. And at the price points they offer, frankly, I think we're spoiled and maybe just a teensy bit entitled. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes ;)

Oh I'm not saying like stop making figures altogether, but they can easily just make one model and continue to upgrade it for people for free and it be updated everytime new technology comes out. Problem is Daz is free to use so they need to make money somehow to keep the software free and that is having people buy their new models which I understand and I know most hobbyist artists would stop using Daz if they had to start paying a sub or membership to use it. Would it make everything you get free then including new models? Yes, but that is the price you pay if you buy software. You get it all for free, but your still paying for it in a way through subscription/memberships. I think that is why most have come to terms with the whole genesis iterations coming out every how often. These are to pay the bills for daz studio.

I think Daz pays the bills through a cut of store sales. If that is the case, then volume sales of all assets for all available generations keeps the lights on more than the introduction of one or even a generation of new figures. As I see it, introducing a new generation is risky, there's the canibalization point this thread is based on and a synergy issue (how compatibility between generations maintains or even encourages sales of older assets) to consider. In my opinion, if a DS update does not address the compatibility questions, then I suspect the introduction of G9 was more of an artistic than business decision.

I think G9 is introduced because many users wanted generation 9 instead of 8.1, which sounds like an incomplete upgrade.

When did DAZ ever consider what users want? Users want soft body physics or better animation tools but we get G9.

Neither of those are really high on my list ... or even on my list

WillowRaven · September 2022

Many in this forum can attest that I didn't leave V4 & M4 until G8 had been out for at least a year ... So I'll be sticking with the heavily-invested-in G*s for a good bit before I upgrade.

SolitarySandpiper · September 2022

marble said:

When did DAZ ever consider what users want? Users want soft body physics or better animation tools but we get G9.

I think users need to consider on what Daz can actually deliver... and if by now they haven't delivered some obviously desirable features or functionality then maybe that's a good indication of their limitations.

Gordig · September 2022

SolitarySandpiper said:

marble said:

When did DAZ ever consider what users want? Users want soft body physics or better animation tools but we get G9.

I think users need to consider on what Daz can actually deliver... and if by now they haven't delivered some obviously desirable features or functionality then maybe that's a good indication of their limitations.

Look at how frustrated people are with dForce. Now imagine the people who made dForce made a soft-body physics engine for DS. Is that really what you want?

WendyLuvsCatz · September 2022

they have had a program with much of that functionally for 10 years

(Carrara 8.5 bullet physics, dynamic hair)

as well as all the animation features, particle engine, terrain and foliage editors, volumetrics, 3 modelling types

but

nobody wanted to use it, they all want click load mannequins so development ceased

lilweep · September 2022

WendyLuvsCatz said:

they have had a program with much of that functionally for 10 years

(Carrara 8.5 bullet physics, dynamic hair)

as well as all the animation features, particle engine, terrain and foliage editors, volumetrics, 3 modelling types

but

nobody wanted to use it, they all want click load mannequins so development ceased

people also always had access to Blender

People dont like to leave their comfort zones.

Better bridges and signposting of these options in order to socialise them into the user base would be needed.

SolitarySandpiper · September 2022

Gordig said:

SolitarySandpiper said:

marble said:

When did DAZ ever consider what users want? Users want soft body physics or better animation tools but we get G9.

I think users need to consider on what Daz can actually deliver... and if by now they haven't delivered some obviously desirable features or functionality then maybe that's a good indication of their limitations.

Look at how frustrated people are with dForce. Now imagine the people who made dForce made a soft-body physics engine for DS. Is that really what you want?

What I want is very clever people to come up with very simple solutions to very complex tasks... and i want them to do all that within my budget.

Now Daz is the closest I'm gonna get... if I want better I'd need to put in more time, effort or money.

xyer0 · September 2022

AllenArt said:

I use David 3 still and he's a character from Genesis 1.

@AllenArt Did you mean David 5? Didn't you roll your own David 5 & Michael 6 spec maps and post the renders on the forum? If so, please consider packaging them up (and any others) and selling them in this store (never mind the haters). If Daz let Valzheimer make clones (Wear Them All) and sell them here, then they shouldn't mind you selling edited maps. My Genesis and Genesis 2 characters (other than Darius 6) are relegated to the background because I'm too trifling to make custom spec maps for them, which makes all most of the difference between skins I love and other skins.

AllenArt · September 2022

xyer0 said:

AllenArt said:

I use David 3 still and he's a character from Genesis 1.

@AllenArt Did you mean David 5? Didn't you roll your own David 5 & Michael 6 spec maps and post the renders on the forum? If so, please consider packaging them up (and any others) and selling them in this store (never mind the haters). If Daz let Valzheimer make clones (Wear Them All) and sell them here, then they shouldn't mind you selling edited maps. My Genesis and Genesis 2 characters (other than Darius 6) are relegated to the background because I'm too trifling to make custom spec maps for them, which makes all most of the difference between skins I love and other skins.

Yes, I did mean David 5. Sorry about that. LOL No David 3. Yes David 5. Hahahaha. Old brain ;)

AllenArt · September 2022

AllenArt said:

xyer0 said:

AllenArt said:

I use David 3 still and he's a character from Genesis 1.

@AllenArt Did you mean David 5? Didn't you roll your own David 5 & Michael 6 spec maps and post the renders on the forum? If so, please consider packaging them up (and any others) and selling them in this store (never mind the haters). If Daz let Valzheimer make clones (Wear Them All) and sell them here, then they shouldn't mind you selling edited maps. My Genesis and Genesis 2 characters (other than Darius 6) are relegated to the background because I'm too trifling to make custom spec maps for them, which makes all most of the difference between skins I love and other skins.

Yes, I did mean David 5. Sorry about that. LOL No David 3. Yes David 5. Hahahaha. Old brain ;)

CHWT · September 2022

AllenArt said:

AllenArt said:

xyer0 said:

AllenArt said:

I use David 3 still and he's a character from Genesis 1.

@AllenArt Did you mean David 5? Didn't you roll your own David 5 & Michael 6 spec maps and post the renders on the forum? If so, please consider packaging them up (and any others) and selling them in this store (never mind the haters). If Daz let Valzheimer make clones (Wear Them All) and sell them here, then they shouldn't mind you selling edited maps. My Genesis and Genesis 2 characters (other than Darius 6) are relegated to the background because I'm too trifling to make custom spec maps for them, which makes all most of the difference between skins I love and other skins.

Yes, I did mean David 5. Sorry about that. LOL No David 3. Yes David 5. Hahahaha. Old brain ;)

Wow, love it. OT but what's the background and lighting used?

Gordig · September 2022

SolitarySandpiper said:

Gordig said:

SolitarySandpiper said:

marble said:

When did DAZ ever consider what users want? Users want soft body physics or better animation tools but we get G9.

I think users need to consider on what Daz can actually deliver... and if by now they haven't delivered some obviously desirable features or functionality then maybe that's a good indication of their limitations.

Look at how frustrated people are with dForce. Now imagine the people who made dForce made a soft-body physics engine for DS. Is that really what you want?

What I want is very clever people to come up with very simple solutions to very complex tasks... and i want them to do all that within my budget.

Now Daz is the closest I'm gonna get... if I want better I'd need to put in more time, effort or money.

I was adding on to what you said, not responding to you.

Gordig · September 2022

ArtofGohan said:

AllenArt said:

If you've wanted Daz to close it's doors, that's the FASTEST way to do it. How could they survive if they released one figure and NEVER upgraded it again? Would you want to be using the same figure 20 years from now? I sure wouldn't. Time doesn't stand still. Neither does 3D technology. There are always new things to include and consider and any company that refuses to budge on any of those things is doomed to failure. Maybe they don't update ENOUGH with each generation to suit some people. But at least they do update their figures. And at the price points they offer, frankly, I think we're spoiled and maybe just a teensy bit entitled. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes ;)

Oh I'm not saying like stop making figures altogether, but they can easily just make one model and continue to upgrade it for people for free and it be updated everytime new technology comes out. Problem is Daz is free to use so they need to make money somehow to keep the software free and that is having people buy their new models which I understand and I know most hobbyist artists would stop using Daz if they had to start paying a sub or membership to use it. Would it make everything you get free then including new models? Yes, but that is the price you pay if you buy software. You get it all for free, but your still paying for it in a way through subscription/memberships. I think that is why most have come to terms with the whole genesis iterations coming out every how often. These are to pay the bills for daz studio.

If you think it would be easy to make one model and continue to upgrade it, the important question is: which model? If Daz stopped producing entirely new figures at a certain point, they would have been locked in to the limitations of that figure. G8 improved on G3 in ways that wouldn't have been possible as an upgrade to G3, and the same goes for every previous generation.

pofotigec · September 2022

PerttiA said:

pofotigec said:

Personally Im sticking with my G8 content. I've put a lot of $$ into my products and so far, this G9/V9 doesn't really seem very appealing to me. Im very picky when it comes to my products to begin with. And the amount of time and money invested in G8 is also another thing for me. Covid and all this Russia / Ukraine war affected us hard. I don't have money to simply throw around like I used to.

Plus from what I've seen, the improvements etc don't seem that appealing to me so far. It's gonna take a lot of products that are of genuine interest to me, to cause me to want to actually move over to this. So for me, Im gonna simply smile and wave and enjoy G8 until there is content and so on that gives me real reason to move over. ^^

There is no hurry... When the DS 4.21 and G9 Starter essentials are released, one gets the base character for free, usually with some clothing to keep them modest and a hair too.

Oh no doubt about this ^^ But as I mentioned, am quite specific with my products/characters in regards to what I find to be of interest. Like I'll be very frank. The content currently shown, is of no interest to me as a base. I don't like the look of Victoria personally. She's beautifully done. But not suited to my wants and needs.

But take for example on renderosity, the dragon queen character <3 I love her look, it works so well. It's well worth it for me and my wants and needs. And yes you're very right. Definitely no hurry to buy. In any case, I am glad that they're still creating content and working to improve etc. Otherwise we'd remain limited on what we can achieve. In particular for many I think, due to base model density/complexity based on what I've been reading on the forums. And I can fully understand having encountered some issues myself when wanting to make morphs etc.

The only thing I am dreading at this point though is the 8K textures. I am on a 1080 TI Overclocked, but even with 4K and 2K textures (and 16GB of ram along with the i7 8700K overclocked to 4.7Ghz) am quite limited at times. Sometimes just a scene with a single character and a dress can cause me to crash if I for example have a ton of grass in the scene or whatever when trying to do an iray preview in viewport... So already I feel the limitations there. I do however look forward to seeing what content creators are going to come out with over time. It's wonderful to advance in the pursuit of realism and freedom to create <3

Panzer Emerald · September 2022

WendyLuvsCatz said:

they have had a program with much of that functionally for 10 years

(Carrara 8.5 bullet physics, dynamic hair)

as well as all the animation features, particle engine, terrain and foliage editors, volumetrics, 3 modelling types

but

nobody wanted to use it, they all want click load mannequins so development ceased

Nobody wants to use it because Blender is now capable of those things and a whole lot more. For free.

Considering Blender is fast become a standard in the industry while still remaining accessible to hobbyists (albeit barely, depending on who you ask) and at least 2 bridges from Daz to Blender out there, I can't say I blame them for abandoning Carrara after 8.5.

PerttiA · September 2022

pofotigec said:

The only thing I am dreading at this point though is the 8K textures. I am on a 1080 TI Overclocked, but even with 4K and 2K textures (and 16GB of ram along with the i7 8700K overclocked to 4.7Ghz) am quite limited at times.

I'm still running i7-5820K, but have 64GB's of RAM and a 3060 12GB and there is only a few products that I can't use because they are designed for computers to be released in 2030

Ram is cheap 16GB's is just not enough.

Gator · September 2022

pofotigec said:

PerttiA said:

The only thing I am dreading at this point though is the 8K textures. I am on a 1080 TI Overclocked, but even with 4K and 2K textures (and 16GB of ram along with the i7 8700K overclocked to 4.7Ghz) am quite limited at times. Sometimes just a scene with a single character and a dress can cause me to crash if I for example have a ton of grass in the scene or whatever when trying to do an iray preview in viewport... So already I feel the limitations there. I do however look forward to seeing what content creators are going to come out with over time. It's wonderful to advance in the pursuit of realism and freedom to create <3

It's been mentioned before or another thread, I forgot. Anyhoo, those are only the detail maps and they don't have to be loaded.

And I bolded what's surely your problem as PerttiA mentioned. 16 GB of RAM is woefully inadequate for a content creation machine of this day, not just Daz many other content creation apps. I had a 12 GB VRAM card but with 64 GB of RAM, and the only limitation I had with Daz was using up the VRAM. System RAM is pretty cheap nowadays.

pofotigec · September 2022

Gator said:

pofotigec said:

PerttiA said:

The only thing I am dreading at this point though is the 8K textures. I am on a 1080 TI Overclocked, but even with 4K and 2K textures (and 16GB of ram along with the i7 8700K overclocked to 4.7Ghz) am quite limited at times. Sometimes just a scene with a single character and a dress can cause me to crash if I for example have a ton of grass in the scene or whatever when trying to do an iray preview in viewport... So already I feel the limitations there. I do however look forward to seeing what content creators are going to come out with over time. It's wonderful to advance in the pursuit of realism and freedom to create <3

It's been mentioned before or another thread, I forgot. Anyhoo, those are only the detail maps and they don't have to be loaded.

And I bolded what's surely your problem as PerttiA mentioned. 16 GB of RAM is woefully inadequate for a content creation machine of this day, not just Daz many other content creation apps. I had a 12 GB VRAM card but with 64 GB of RAM, and the only limitation I had with Daz was using up the VRAM. System RAM is pretty cheap nowadays.

Oh the detail map part I must have missed! Thanks for pointing it out again though <3 ^^

As for the RAM, yeah this I am well aware of unfortunately. I am holding off buying more ram though as I wanna save up and basically.... get a whole new rig altogether. Though this is most definitely gonna be a while. But I think it'll be worth it in the long run to suit my needs.

This current rig I bought in mid 2018. It's definitely starting to feel the strain of keeping up despite it being rather good at the time (least as far as gaming goes) But yeah. I definitely need a better monster of a rig. And thats in my plans :3 Specially since I got into Daz around that time. I will say however, that it definitely beats trying to render on a potato with Daz... And I literally mean that. When I first tried in late 2017, I had a potato of a PC due to theft of my gaming rig. I ended up having to do work on a core 2 duo, standard 4GB memory and a dying HDD and onboard video memory of... 32MB if I recall?) Was not exactly fun. But hey! It helped paid the bills and helped me save up for what I have now haha

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