3Delight Surface and Lighting Thread

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  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 1,636
    edited December 1969

    That's a very respectable time. I know others have to go much longer using other render options just to get rid of noise.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969

    Hair study. Fine tuning the two geometry shell trick. I've raised the translucence strength so it's about the same as the diffuse. There's still some problems if you view it from inside the shadow's angle, but when viewed from other angles it looks quite good. I really love that rim effect. :) The other problem which is unavoidable is you need to adjust bump strength per hair prop.

    Hair is Goldtassel's Sultry Hair.

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  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 5,020
    edited December 1969

    You never cease to amaze me Wowie, both your progress in Skin and Hair with UberSurface 2 is so fascinating to see! I love the effect of the translucency of the hair, and the specular looks so genuine, very nice interaction with the rim lighting too I think. The Skin Fresnel seems to work so beautifully in US2, and I really like the specular highlights giving it the final glossy touch. Great stuff :)

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited October 2014

    SpyroRue said:
    You never cease to amaze me Wowie, both your progress in Skin and Hair with UberSurface 2 is so fascinating to see! I love the effect of the translucency of the hair, and the specular looks so genuine, very nice interaction with the rim lighting too I think. The Skin Fresnel seems to work so beautifully in US2, and I really like the specular highlights giving it the final glossy touch. Great stuff :)

    Thank you.
    Much of the credit should actually go to omnifreaker. Plus all the info found in this thread. There's some more shots in my gallery.
    http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#galleries/84350/

    Post edited by wowie on
  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 5,020
    edited December 1969

    Excellent gallery! Great too see them all together, Ive gone through this thread many times seeking tips and inspiration, saw several of these, but theres so many others I missed, thanks for the link :cheese:

    And yes I know Id be lost without Omnifreaker and AoA haha. Still It takes ALLOT of work formulating the materials alone, not to mention the lighting and rendering, so the more credit to the both of you :)

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969

    Some additional materials study. Not the best model around, but it will do.

    More on the gallery - http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/galleries/85269/

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  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited October 2014

    More test renders. Others can be found in my gallery linked above. Render time was about 2 min, give or take a few seconds depending on the angle. All the reflections are raytraced. On some parts they look blurry because the image used on the reflective sphere is blurry (I used the Environment sphere of UE2, with the Park HDRI).

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  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited October 2014

    Probably the best render I've done so far. I enabled OOF in this shot, kept it very narrow so only her torso's in focus. This version took something like 4 min while a larger version 1600x2040 took something like 13 min. Probably should raise the shadow samples a bit mor, particularly for the UberArea lights, but the noise isn't that noticeable in the large render.

    The hair is not using any geometry shell, but the MATs have the updated tweaks. Still looks pretty nice and believable.

    Bigger version at 1600x2080 with UberArea light samples at 128 samples - http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#images/43305

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  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 1,636
    edited December 1969

    Looking good! Are these lights destined for a new kit soon?

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited November 2014

    Looking good! Are these lights destined for a new kit soon?

    The lights and some character MATs are already in the pipeline. Haven't heard anything yet about a release date.

    The metal/base MATs are still WIP though. Here's some more renders with a different car and the light set, rotated to slightly mimic the KH Park HDRI (the image I'm using for the environment sphere for reflections. Pretty happy with the chrome and car paint.

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  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,878
    edited December 1969

    Hi Wowie, the cars look impressive!
    Have you thought about trying to replicate that "iridescent" sort of car paint that seems to change hue with viewing angle? It probably won't be a 100% believable match without setting up a colour ramp to access based on the angle (so it can't be done in UberSurface, only with a new shader), but I'm thinking an approximation can be done with various colours of specular using different Fresnel attenuations, especially with geometry shells to gain more specular layers.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited November 2014

    Hi Wowie, the cars look impressive!
    Have you thought about trying to replicate that "iridescent" sort of car paint that seems to change hue with viewing angle? It probably won't be a 100% believable match without setting up a colour ramp to access based on the angle (so it can't be done in UberSurface, only with a new shader), but I'm thinking an approximation can be done with various colours of specular using different Fresnel attenuations, especially with geometry shells to gain more specular layers.

    Thanks. :)

    I've found that balancing specular with diffuse and diffuse roughness is essential to getting metal look right. I'm also using both diffuse layers. I've actually made two presets for car paint. The Car Ranger is closer to what you want to do, while the Pickup Dred have a more solid look.

    As you pointed out, the shader needs to be manually written for that. It's certainly doable.If it's angle based, than the easiest way to go is specular with fresnel, with varying specular colors depending on the fresnel ramp/falloff. You probably just need two colors - one to start and another to end.

    You can also hack a solution with a fresnel color (in the same manner). The upside is that you can probably force it to apply to reflections as well. That will work well for metals or even glass.

    Come to think of it, you probably don't need two colors. You can just use the specular color, preferably for the settings when the object/surface is viewed at max angles (specular strength close to 1). The fresnel color is then use to subtract from that color. Again, this can be applied to reflections as well.

    I'm not sure how to go about with the flakes though. Off course, the easiest way is to use a specular map.

    Since you've brought up the geometry shells, I think it's possible to hack a solution with that. Have a geometry shell or two with different specular and fresnel properties and I think if you blend them correctly they can look pretty convincing.

    edit: Below are renders with and without additional geometry shell with different specular and fresnel settings. One problem with this approach is that you need to set opacity quite low and therefor the specular strength needs to be raised to compensate. Plus the specular colors need to be recalculated so you end up with two different colors when viewed at different angles.

    Sorry there's so much noise, This is just a really quick and dry test to see if it's possible. I don't think it looks particularly convincing though. The end result looks more like you have a slightly larger specular coat. So it's not a color shift at different angles.

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  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited November 2014

    Anyone tried the new DS preview build yet? The changelog notes 3delight was updated to 11.0.105. The earlier, stable build 4.6.3.50/52 was using 11.0.47.

    I noticed this on the 3delight changelog
    11.0.72 - 2014-05-16
    Improved depth of field sampling in the path tracer (#5272).

    Maybe it fixes the DOF issue Takeo's been seeing?

    More recent changes seems promising too.

    11.0.110 - 2014-10-01
    Improved progressive rendering. The progressive pattern has now a more standard progression and converges to the same render as for a normal, non-progressive, render.
    Progressive rendering is now almost as fast as a normal, non-progressive, render. As a broad estimate, the progressive render has less than a 10% speed penalty compared to a normal render.

    11.0.114 - 2014-10-16
    Reduced noise in non-final passes of progressive rendering.

    11.0.115 - 2014-10-22
    Improved tiles (buckets) size in progressive rendering.

    Post edited by wowie on
  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,303
    edited December 1969

    wowie said:
    Anyone tried the new DS preview build yet? The changelog notes 3delight was updated to 11.0.105. The earlier, stable build 4.6.3.50/52 was using 11.0.47.

    I noticed this on the 3delight changelog
    11.0.72 - 2014-05-16
    Improved depth of field sampling in the path tracer (#5272).

    Maybe it fixes the DOF issue Takeo's been seeing?.

    Not with DS tutorial scenes (just tried the Dragon Slayer again) when you use Raytrace Hider. This doesn't apply there as DS Default light and shaders don't use Path tracing.

    I didn't make much test apart from the IPR rendering

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969


    Not with DS tutorial scenes (just tried the Dragon Slayer again) when you use Raytrace Hider. This doesn't apply there as DS Default light and shaders don't use Path tracing.

    Sorry to hear that. I haven't had the chance to try the build myself since I prefer to work with final builds.

    Been playing around with lights osme more - basically, a fake sun/sky setup.

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  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,878
    edited December 1969

    wowie said:
    Anyone tried the new DS preview build yet?

    Where do we get it? On the Beta store page?

    I really want 11.0.112, Paolo said it comes with a fix to that tiny but sometimes annoying bug with the raytraced SSS. 11.0.108 (the free standalone as of right now) doesn't have it yet.

    wowie said:
    Been playing around with lights osme more - basically, a fake sun/sky setup.

    Looks nice, maybe you should try adding a bit more of bounce light from the "ground"? The shadow under his chin looks a tad too dark, to me.


    Since you've brought up the geometry shells, I think it's possible to hack a solution with that. Have a geometry shell or two with different specular and fresnel properties and I think if you blend them correctly they can look pretty convincing.... I don't think it looks particularly convincing though. The end result looks more like you have a slightly larger specular coat. So it's not a color shift at different angles.

    Thanks for the test... wouldn't more shells with more varied parameters help?

    I would've thrown a quick shader mixer mockup together to see how well it handles colour arrays, but I just don't have the willpower these days. Real life is crazy.

    ------------

    Not with DS tutorial scenes (just tried the Dragon Slayer again) when you use Raytrace Hider. This doesn't apply there as DS Default light and shaders don't use Path tracing.

    Wait, but does the lighting matter for DOF? Isn't it all about pure hiding?

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited November 2014


    Where do we get it? On the Beta store page?


    I've downloaded it through DIM. Should also be available via the Product Library page through your 'My Account' page.


    I really want 11.0.112, Paolo said it comes with a fix to that tiny but sometimes annoying bug with the raytraced SSS. 11.0.108 (the free standalone as of right now) doesn't have it yet.


    Maybe they will update it for the final build. I do like those progressive rendering improvements.


    Looks nice, maybe you should try adding a bit more of bounce light from the "ground"? The shadow under his chin looks a tad too dark, to me.

    The one with less dark areas already have enough fake bounce lights. I'm rather uncertain to mimic direct sunlight or not. Probably not going to.


    Thanks for the test... wouldn't more shells with more varied parameters help?

    I don't think so. Looking at AoA's Metalized Glass Shader, I think it is possible, but the shader needs to be written with those things in mind. It implements the same approach as you described earlier. I don't think we need the amount of colors he have on the shader though.

    Post edited by wowie on
  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,878
    edited December 1969

    wowie said:

    I've downloaded it through DIM. Should also be available via the Product Library page through your 'My Account' page.

    Thank you. I found the Beta page in the product library - and it says DIM's the only option to install betas now. I'm currently reading through the announcement topic to find out if it's 100% necessary to update the included content to use the beta or not...

    wowie said:

    The one with less dark areas already have enough fake bounce lights. I'm rather uncertain to mimic direct sunlight or not. Probably not going to.

    I guess area lighting may a bit too "expensive" for direct sunlight - a distant light seems to work well enough for a sun.


    I don't think so. Looking at AoA's Metalized Glass Shader, I think it is possible, but the shader needs to be written with those things in mind. It implements the same approach as you described earlier. I don't think we need the amount of colors he have on the shader though.

    I guess that amount of colours is for rainbow-style iridescence. I don't have that AoA's shader, but I believe it uses shader mixer's Spline brick. It should be possible to set the colours you don't need to the same colour as their neighbours.

    Here are a few useful links for those who want to try writing/comping a shader like this:

    https://www.sfdm.scad.edu/faculty/mkesson/vsfx419/wip/best/winter11/megan_stifter/iridescence.html - there's a link to the source code towards the end;
    http://www.hradec.com/ebooks/CGI/RMS_1.0/mtor/shading/shader_design/shader_recipes.html (search for "iridescence")

  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,303
    edited December 1969

    Not with DS tutorial scenes (just tried the Dragon Slayer again) when you use Raytrace Hider. This doesn't apply there as DS Default light and shaders don't use Path tracing.

    Wait, but does the lighting matter for DOF? Isn't it all about pure hiding?

    Hider Raytrace = ON doesn't mean you're pathtracing in the shaders

    Not sure you can get iridescence with Ubersurface and geometry shell.

    My take on car paint below. These are quick renders from IPR rendering

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  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,402
    edited December 1969

    Pleas forgive the intrusion. This has stumped me, and I have yet to find any concrete posts showing how to do this. I took a break the past two weeks, so I have some catching up to do as well.

    A quick note and question. Reflecting “Light sources” not just “Illuminated surfaces”. Daz Default shader with 3delight, is there a switch to make this happen without resorting to Shader-Spaghetti-Magic?

    The light fixture should reflect the light from the point-light back up at the ceiling, making a ring of illuminated-area on the ceiling. I just don't know where that ring of light should be, and wanted the computer to simulate it for me.

    I figured this was to complex, so I simplified it down to a simple Reflective Pillar Test...
    What the “reflective pillar test “ should look like roughly is shown using my stove light, a mechanics mirror, and my clipboard.

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  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,878
    edited December 1969

    Hider Raytrace = ON doesn't mean you're pathtracing in the shaders

    Maybe there is something I do not understand, but I can't see how path tracing in shaders would be that important for DOF. Shaders are just a means to get pixel colour for secondary rays fired from the focal plane. How exactly these rays are sampled and then averaged is what makes DOF better or worse. That's the way I understand it; if I'm wrong, could you please explain where exactly?


    -----------


    What the “reflective pillar test “ should look like roughly is shown using my stove light, a mechanics mirror, and my clipboard.

    You're looking for caustics. It's an "advanced" feature, default shaders or lights don't support it. If you want "fire-and-forget" caustics, stick to something like LuxRender.

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,402
    edited November 2014

    I tried that Caustics thing, and totally messed up the Demo in the process, lol.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/702676/
    1, select the chrome Daz Logo, and save it's surface as a "Shader Preset".
    2, load the Pillar test, and apply the new shader to the pillar.
    3, try to adjust the reflective settings to show the plane reflected in the pillar.
    4, go back to the Daz Logo demo to see what I'm doing wrong.
    5, now it is all broken, lol. :red:
    (EDIT)
    Bigger question, assuming I figure out how that demo works. Can Caustics act off of another caustics. Like if I have two chrome rings on that Light fixture?

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  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,878
    edited December 1969

    I tried that Caustics thing, and totally messed up the Demo in the process, lol.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/702676/
    1, select the chrome Daz Logo, and save it's surface as a "Shader Preset".
    2, load the Pillar test, and apply the new shader to the pillar.
    3, try to adjust the reflective settings to show the plane reflected in the pillar.
    4, go back to the Daz Logo demo to see what I'm doing wrong.
    5, now it is all broken, lol. :red:

    You need more than just a surface shader for it. Sticking to shader mixer alone, you need a light from shader mixer, and a special shader mixer camera.

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,402
    edited November 2014

    I tried that Caustics thing, and totally messed up the Demo in the process, lol.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/702676/
    1, select the chrome Daz Logo, and save it's surface as a "Shader Preset".
    2, load the Pillar test, and apply the new shader to the pillar.
    3, try to adjust the reflective settings to show the plane reflected in the pillar.
    4, go back to the Daz Logo demo to see what I'm doing wrong.
    5, now it is all broken, lol. :red:

    You need more than just a surface shader for it. Sticking to shader mixer alone, you need a light from shader mixer, and a special shader mixer camera. Sorry about the 'double' there. Is there a laymens explanation for the interaction between the three parts? What is that plane doing? is it a light source of sorts?

    B.T.W. really nice renders on the previous pages wowie.

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,303
    edited December 1969

    Hider Raytrace = ON doesn't mean you're pathtracing in the shaders

    Maybe there is something I do not understand, but I can't see how path tracing in shaders would be that important for DOF. Shaders are just a means to get pixel colour for secondary rays fired from the focal plane. How exactly these rays are sampled and then averaged is what makes DOF better or worse. That's the way I understand it; if I'm wrong, could you please explain where exactly?

    Read in the Cons of path tracing https://3delight.atlassian.net/wiki/display/3DFM/Pros+and+Cons+of+Path+Tracing+vs+REYES

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,402
    edited December 1969

    Hider Raytrace = ON doesn't mean you're pathtracing in the shaders

    Maybe there is something I do not understand, but I can't see how path tracing in shaders would be that important for DOF. Shaders are just a means to get pixel colour for secondary rays fired from the focal plane. How exactly these rays are sampled and then averaged is what makes DOF better or worse. That's the way I understand it; if I'm wrong, could you please explain where exactly?

    Read in the Cons of path tracing https://3delight.atlassian.net/wiki/display/3DFM/Pros+and+Cons+of+Path+Tracing+vs+REYESI am so far behind the ball on this. I barley comprehend what that page is talking about, and I have never seen this settings window, lol.
    https://3delight.atlassian.net/wiki/display/3DFM/The+Render+Settings
    I will avoid messing with any of them settings, as I don't want to break another thing in Daz Studio, lol. First's thing for me is to get a 3dElight dictionary, lol.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969


    Not sure you can get iridescence with Ubersurface and geometry shell.

    My take on car paint below. These are quick renders from IPR rendering

    The dark areas should be a lot more darker. SInce the scene is bright daylight, you probably want to limit the intensity of every light but the sun. I've find using an area light and not standard lights works best, since you can vary the size for larger highlights and softer shadows.

    This is most noticeable in the last render. The light opposite the sun shouldn't be illuminating surfaces hat high and the objects cast very visible shadows.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited November 2014


    Read in the Cons of path tracing https://3delight.atlassian.net/wiki/display/3DFM/Pros+and+Cons+of+Path+Tracing+vs+REYESI am so far behind the ball on this. I barley comprehend what that page is talking about, and I have never seen this settings window, lol.
    https://3delight.atlassian.net/wiki/display/3DFM/The+Render+Settings
    I will avoid messing with any of them settings, as I don't want to break another thing in Daz Studio, lol. First's thing for me is to get a 3dElight dictionary, lol.

    That's the option panel for 3delight for Maya so you will not see them in DAZ Studio. The MEL scripts is the most obvious giveaway.

    There's a video on DAZ's Youtube channel about using shader mixer to add caustics to the scene.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwCHxSTlOQo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2lwC6HHTrU

    I forgot which one is which. One talks about caustics while the other indirect light. As Mustakettu85 pointed out, you need a Shader Mixer camera, light and surface applied to an object to make that happen. The camera and light is easy enough, but the surface shader means you can't use off-the-shelf shaders.

    You can use geometry shells in place though. Basically what it means is to use two objects, one visible to default camera (without caustics) and one purely for rendering caustics but have it invisible to everything else.

    But from the description in your post, I think you're looking for a solution to get bounce lights. I generally prefer doing this by adding reflection to the receiving surface.

    Post edited by wowie on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969

    Almost finished. Still need to tweak the glass and probably the chrome.

    6 Distant light and UE set to BounceGI, with Kettu's script off course. It may not be accurate, but looks very nice indeed. Diffuse and specular bounce needed to be set to at least 4 to get all the refractions from the glass. I've also enabled the raytrace hider in the script. Render time was about 3 minutes with a Core i7 4770K.

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  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,303
    edited December 1969

    wowie said:

    Not sure you can get iridescence with Ubersurface and geometry shell.

    My take on car paint below. These are quick renders from IPR rendering

    The dark areas should be a lot more darker. SInce the scene is bright daylight, you probably want to limit the intensity of every light but the sun. I've find using an area light and not standard lights works best, since you can vary the size for larger highlights and softer shadows.

    This is most noticeable in the last render. The light opposite the sun shouldn't be illuminating surfaces hat high and the objects cast very visible shadows.

    Was just testing the car paint and IPR render. Very effective and you gain a lot of time for light and material adjustment

    I like your last renders of the car better.

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