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Windows 11 is Groovy!

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  • hjakehjake Posts: 1,306

    mwokee said:

    I was content with DOS 3.1

     

    Baaaah!!!  No way.  It is time to get with DEC RT-11 or if your a hipster who can't handle the power then CP/M-80 for you.  This will be really light on resources!!!  wink

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,975

    Is it still possible to set the Taskbar to AutoHide, so it gets out of the way when not being used?

  • markgoode77markgoode77 Posts: 343

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Is it still possible to set the Taskbar to AutoHide, so it gets out of the way when not being used?

    Yes. 

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,975

    markgoode77 said:

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Is it still possible to set the Taskbar to AutoHide, so it gets out of the way when not being used?

    Yes. 

    Phew. Thank you.

  • LeatherGryphonLeatherGryphon Posts: 12,180
    edited October 2021

    mwokee said:

    I was content with DOS 3.1

    I was happy with Motorola's "VERSAdos".  (early '80s) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VERSAdos#:~:text=VERSAdos is an operating system,to four 14-inch platters.

    Before that it was CPM (late '70s)

    Before that it was the real-time, multi-processing OS on a Raytheon RDS-500 "mini-computer". (mid-'70s)  I have no idea what it's name was, or if it even had a name. (old brain, lost memories) 

    Before that it was the real-time, single processing OS on a Raytheon 706 "mini-computer".

    Before that it was the single-processing OS provided for an IBM-1130.  (late '60s)

    Before that it was the 3-bit, no OS, plastic "Digi-Comp-1" (early '60s)  The "Digi-Comp" followed me through my career and sat on the big computers or their console for years with a sign that said "Emergency Use Only".

    I was satisfied with them all, except for the Digi-Comp.  Once you'd counted to 7 and experimented with AND & OR it made a good paperweight.)  Not a lot of growth potential and zero peripherals.

     

    MotorolaEXORmacsSystem.jpg
    520 x 702 - 86K
    Post edited by LeatherGryphon on
  • stephenschoonstephenschoon Posts: 362
    edited October 2021

    I spent over 30 years supporting Microsoft systems, all the way back to MSDOS.

    From Windows NT onwards we used to say 'Wait till Service Pack 1 comes out before you upgrade'.

    Now we don't have service packs so I would say wait at least 6 months to a year from it's proper release before upgrading.

    Unfortunately thanks to 'Marketing' and accountants all software released now should be consider 'beta' 

    Now I've retired I haven't even looked at Windows 11 and I'm not in any hurry to upgrade until Windows 10 becomes EOL.

    Best Wishes
    Steve.

    Post edited by stephenschoon on
  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,610

    NylonGirl said:

    Haruchai said:

    Drip said:

    Rasberri said:

    There is an app called "PC Health Check" and it lets you know if your system is compatible with Windows 11.  Unfortunately, my CPU is not, which indicates to me the hardware needs to be newer.. which I certainly cannot afford at the moment.. buying a larger SSD about broke the bank for me.

    From the early news I heard about Windows 11's new requirements, there was something pertaining to the CPU which might require enabling something in the BIOS. But, better ask a specialist (one who doesn't have any interest in selling you an entirely new computer) about that part.

    Windows 11 requires the CPU to have a TPM  (Trusted Platform Module). This is hardware. The other security feature is Secure Boot which can be enabled in the BIOS if the motherboard supports it (and isn't already on).

    Looking at the image Raspberri posted their CPU doesn't have a TPM. There are ways to install Windows 11 without having either of these security features but Microsoft have been making some sweeping statements like 'We won't provide security updates to people who do this'. Whether this comes to pass only time will tell but probably best to wait a while.

    In my "girls gone wild" days, one of my computer science professors noted that anything done in hardware could also be implemented in software, although it would be slower. If that's the case then whatever this TPM thing is should also be something that could be implemented in software. It wouldn't be the first time a CPU security feature was emulated by the Windows operating system. I can't remember the name of the example I was thinking of, but I think it was related to the separation of things in memory so apps can't access memory used by other apps. Surely a software implementation would be vulnerable to "rootkits" if those are still around. But then if some virus has gotten root access, this TPM thing probably won't help anyway.

    My main point is, if the hardware has enough speed and memory to run the operating system, there shouldn't be any nonsense about not meeting hardware requirements.

    Whilst it is true that what most of what can be done in hardware can also be done in software, that is missing the point, which is security. Anything in software can also be overwritten by a virus, or hack attack, but that is a lot more difficult, if not impossible, with hardware.

  • ColinFrenchColinFrench Posts: 649

    mwokee said:

    I was content with DOS 3.1

    No way! AmigaDOS rules!  heart heart heart

  • namffuaknamffuak Posts: 4,457

    IceCrMn said:

    . . .
    Much like KDE, most everything is now a "widget".

    The "Hot New Feature" seems to be a KDE feature called "Grid"(circa 2009 IIRC)or "Kwin Tilling" depending on how old your version of KDE is. When you have more that one window open you can have them snap and tiled out to different layouts(very much like a comic book page layout) so they don't overlap. Not sure if they also integrated the KDE window manager feature that lets you "bump" a window into the edge of the monitor to auto tile open windows or not. Also looks like W11 has multiple virtual desktops, just like KDE/Gnome and other linux DE.Though I think there was an WIN-XP powertoy that had this feature, so not new.

    I don't (and won't) do widgets or active tiles or similar. I have no desire to waste resources on 'eye candy'. And my digital desktop matches my real-world desktop - unsightly stacks that I can navigate quickly and easily - the 'snap and tile' function will never get used.

    I figure I've got until late 2026 to see what will be replacing this; I'm currently running two windows 7 pro systems, an OpenSuSE 15.x system, and a windows 8.1 laptop I'm in the process of replacing with a new windows 10 laptop - which will, with any luck, be upgraded from home to pro tomorrow. The W7 render system will probably get upgraded to W10 pro when a new version of Daz Studio includes a new Iray that requires a new driver that is not available for W7. The other W7 system - probably never; I use it to run a scanner, OCR scaned documents, play music and videos, reading, and writing.

  • Silver DolphinSilver Dolphin Posts: 1,640

    ColinFrench said:

    Coverage of Windows11 by ARS is pretty good. Here's their general review, and there will be more detailed reporting soon about it's impact on such things as security, gaming etc. The ARS quick summary:

    The Good

    • A nice-looking and functional redesign that takes us past the Windows 8/10 design aesthetic.
    • Window management improvements are great across the board.
    • Performs about as well (and in some specific circumstances, better than) Windows 10 on the same hardware.
    • Raises awareness of security features like Secure Boot and TPM, which most people should be taking advantage of if they can.
    • Tons of beneficial tweaks to apps, touchscreen and pen support, and other fit-and-finish improvements.
    • Free upgrade from Windows 10.

    The Bad

    • Windows 11 is more consistent and unified than Windows 8 or Windows 10, but you'll still find traces of older Windows versions all over the place.
    • Taskbar regressions will annoy those who relied on the flexibility and customization options of older versions.
    • Widgets still feel mostly pointless in their latest iteration.
    • Lots of built-in apps haven't been updated yet.
    • General brand-new-major-OS-update bugginess.

    The Ugly

    • The biggest jump in Windows' system requirements in 15 years leaves plenty of perfectly functional and not-particularly-old PCs with no fully supported upgrade path.

    I get the feeling that it's something you'll want, but maybe not right away. Give it a year to mature if you can. Windows11 may have been rushed out to meet the upcoming Xmas buying season and there are promised features which haven't made it into the initial release. I think the new taskbar changes will be an annoyance for many users. I'm reserving judgement for now.

    I agree, don't be beta testers for MS. I would wait till the bugs are ironed out.

  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    Yep, as usual I will also wait until it seems to have the bugs fixed. Also, I looked for that PC Helath Check app and it looks like I have to join something called the Microsoft Insider Program. I'm not much of a joiner so I declined.

  • namffuaknamffuak Posts: 4,457

    marble said:

    Yep, as usual I will also wait until it seems to have the bugs fixed. Also, I looked for that PC Helath Check app and it looks like I have to join something called the Microsoft Insider Program. I'm not much of a joiner so I declined.

    The one I downloaded when it was first announced didn't require joining anything. It also wasn't any help, because it would only run on Windows 10.

  • AgitatedRiotAgitatedRiot Posts: 4,627

    AgitatedRiot said:

    Ok, I upgraded Fresh Install installed Daz through DIM. Reloading all my content. Let ya know if I have a problem. Just Glad I have a win10 pro DVD just in case.

    Everything worked out. Win 11 Pro installed easily enough, the interface is weird. Easily find things with the search icon on the taskbar. Ran Passmark Performance Test by Passmark. 3dMark Advance Edition. Scores are on the mark with the past scores on Windows 10 pro 64. No big performance hit that I can see.

    I downloaded DIM of course you had to tell windows to keep the file then it ran fine. Installed Daz3d and all content everything is working fine. Next My games.

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,795

    I was content with TWM (Tom's Window Manager) in the X11R4 System on Irix on a Silicon Graphics, SunOS 1.x on a Sparc, AT&T Unix on a 386 PC or slight variants thereof for the longest time (almost 20 years); but alas those fat government contracts those corporations received made them unresponsive to the need to innovate and create better value for customers and poof, they are now history.

    I like Windows as a developer of apps sort of things but I don't want to get into the Windows system OS at all as a developer or as a system administrator.

  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 2,331

    AMD Ryzen CPUs are having performance issues.

    https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-400

    Could be as much as 15% reduction.

    https://tech.slashdot.org/story/21/10/06/2026207/windows-11-might-tank-ryzen-cpu-performance-amd-warns

    If you are stuck doing renders on CPU only this will be a problem until AMD gets some patches for it.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,047

    ColinFrench said:

    mwokee said:

    I was content with DOS 3.1

    No way! AmigaDOS rules!  heart heart heart

    ...Apple DOS 3.1 

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,047
    edited October 2021

    namffuak said:

    I don't (and won't) do widgets or active tiles or similar. I have no desire to waste resources on 'eye candy'. And my digital desktop matches my real-world desktop - unsightly stacks that I can navigate quickly and easily - the 'snap and tile' function will never get used.

    I figure I've got until late 2026 to see what will be replacing this; I'm currently running two windows 7 pro systems, an OpenSuSE 15.x system, and a windows 8.1 laptop I'm in the process of replacing with a new windows 10 laptop - which will, with any luck, be upgraded from home to pro tomorrow. The W7 render system will probably get upgraded to W10 pro when a new version of Daz Studio includes a new Iray that requires a new driver that is not available for W7. The other W7 system - probably never; I use it to run a scanner, OCR scaned documents, play music and videos, reading, and writing.

    ...totally agree.  I prefer a rather plain & simple "old fashioned" Windows desktop with just the a simple background and Icons I need that is free of any gaudy eye candy.  My workstations are just that, not glorified desktop smartphones or tablets (which is one of the reasons I was turned off by W8 and W10).

    Still on 7 Pro myself and have downloaded the latest Nvidia driver I could get (which is 6 updates ahead of the one required for the version of Iray in Daz 4.15.0.30) so hopefully when Daz 5 finally rolls out, I can still render on my Titan-X, provided Nvidia doesn't move it to obsolete status for Iray (Maxwell is already in "depreciated" status). 

    Of course that is if Daz 5 doesn't go only with W10.and up, or is buggy as all get out (interesting that the 4.12 beta I've been using has been solid and trouble free since I installed it, even more so than the 4.12 general release that followed)..Haven't yet tried 4.15 mainly because of all the complaints about bugs and other instabilities, but wondering of some of that may have to do with W10 updates.  May DL and install it to see (I have the .zips for the 4.10 and 4.11 general releases) 

    Silver Dolphin said:

    I agree, don't be beta testers for MS. I would wait till the bugs are ironed out.

    ...part of the reason I never adopted W10 even when it was offered for "free". 

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • SevrinSevrin Posts: 6,313

    My processor, an  i7-7700k isn't supported, and my board doesn't include a TPM, so I'm safe from temptation to waste my time with this.

  • stephenschoonstephenschoon Posts: 362
    edited October 2021

    ...Apple DOS 3.1 

    Z80 64KB RAM CP-M, I even had a 15MB hard disk or 'Winchester drive'. It was 5.25" full height and if it wasn't fastened into the cage it used to rock when the heads seeked.

    <MontyPython>
    You tell the young people today and they don't believe you.
    </Monty Python>
    Steve.

    Post edited by stephenschoon on
  • LeatherGryphonLeatherGryphon Posts: 12,180
    edited October 2021

    Well, at least one of my computers has a TPM header but no TPM device.  And the last time I checked about availability of TPM devices they'd all been snarfed up by scalpers.angry  However, I really have no interest in moving to Win11 yet.  Don't walk on thin ice.  Give it time to solidify (or meltdown).

     I just checked my three modern computers (papa, momma, & baby-bear) found that momma & baby each have a TPM header but with different pin arrangements.frown  Baby has a 14 pin header with one corner pin missing.  Momma has a 14-pin header with a pin missing in the two-pins over from the corner.  I don't yet know which pin-out is the correct one for version 2.0. 

    And apparently there are two types of TPM modules.  Version 1.2 and version 2.0 of which only the 2.0 version is compatable with Win11.  The old 1.2 version is available for $38, but the 2.0 modules (if you can find any in stock) are $80 or $120.  $#!$#!#@$$!# scalpers.angry

    And to my surprise I discovered that my most powerful motherboard (ASUS Z490) used in papa-bear doesn't have a TPM header at all.indecision  Nor is there any mention of TPM in the motherboard manual at all.indecision

    Not Just Me: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/tpm-modules-unobtainable-expensive-windows-11

    Post edited by LeatherGryphon on
  • Ghosty12Ghosty12 Posts: 2,080

    One of the main things for Windows 11 is to do with the upcoming Intel Alderlake CPU's.. As Win 11 is supposedly designed to make full use of Alderlakes big:LITTLE architecture.. But for me I will be waiting as well, to let the OS mature a bit..

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,975

    LeatherGryphon said:

    Well, at least one of my computers has a TPM header but no TPM device.  And the last time I checked about availability of TPM devices they'd all been snarfed up by scalpers.angry  However, I really have no interest in moving to Win11 yet.  Don't walk on thin ice.  Give it time to solidify (or meltdown).

    If it has a TPM header and a suitable CPU you may well be able to enable a pseudo TPM mode in the BIOS/UEFI.

  • jag11jag11 Posts: 885

    AgitatedRiot said:

    AgitatedRiot said:

    Ok, I upgraded Fresh Install installed Daz through DIM. Reloading all my content. Let ya know if I have a problem. Just Glad I have a win10 pro DVD just in case.

    Everything worked out. Win 11 Pro installed easily enough, the interface is weird. Easily find things with the search icon on the taskbar. Ran Passmark Performance Test by Passmark. 3dMark Advance Edition. Scores are on the mark with the past scores on Windows 10 pro 64. No big performance hit that I can see.

    I downloaded DIM of course you had to tell windows to keep the file then it ran fine. Installed Daz3d and all content everything is working fine. Next My games.

    Same here, smooth upgrade, everything works fine and I notice a small performance improvement.

    My home computer won't upgrade as it is a bit older. I am considering building a new rig and definitely will be a W11 one.

  • AgitatedRiotAgitatedRiot Posts: 4,627

    LeatherGryphon said:

    And to my surprise I discovered that my most powerful motherboard (ASUS Z490) used in papa-bear doesn't have a TPM header at all.indecision  Nor is there any mention of TPM in the motherboard manual at all.indecision

     

    I have a Gigabyte Z490 if you have the right CPU you should be able to enable it in the BIOS under PTT

    How to Check the TPM Status & Enable the CPU's fTPM/PTT • Helge Klein

  • AgitatedRiotAgitatedRiot Posts: 4,627
    edited October 2021

    Should be under Advance> Security in the BIOS

    Post edited by AgitatedRiot on
  • magog_a4eb71abmagog_a4eb71ab Posts: 769

    Drip said:

    PerttiA said:

    Eyecandy aside, what have they improved if anything?

    And more importantly, what did they screw up this time?
    I really hated it when they introduced the metro UI a few years back, but there's gladly some options and programs to tune that way down nowadays. Sadly, the metro UI also broke several third party UI plugins I used before. So I want to see some critical end-user reviews (so not the ones from gadgeteer early access shills) before even considering to ever "upgrade".

    What did they screw up? This for starters:

    "AMD processors officially compatible with Windows 11, exhibit a three-times increase in L3 cache latency with the new operating system.

    Quoted from:

     AMD Processors Lose 15% Gaming Performance with Windows 11, L3 Cache Latency Tripled 

    Not sure how much of an impact this actually has, but it might affect more than just gamers depending on the task(s) being performed.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,047

    LeatherGryphon said:

    Well, at least one of my computers has a TPM header but no TPM device.  And the last time I checked about availability of TPM devices they'd all been snarfed up by scalpers.angry  However, I really have no interest in moving to Win11 yet.  Don't walk on thin ice.  Give it time to solidify (or meltdown).

     I just checked my three modern computers (papa, momma, & baby-bear) found that momma & baby each have a TPM header but with different pin arrangements.frown  Baby has a 14 pin header with one corner pin missing.  Momma has a 14-pin header with a pin missing in the two-pins over from the corner.  I don't yet know which pin-out is the correct one for version 2.0. 

    And apparently there are two types of TPM modules.  Version 1.2 and version 2.0 of which only the 2.0 version is compatable with Win11.  The old 1.2 version is available for $38, but the 2.0 modules (if you can find any in stock) are $80 or $120.  $#!$#!#@$$!# scalpers.angry

    And to my surprise I discovered that my most powerful motherboard (ASUS Z490) used in papa-bear doesn't have a TPM header at all.indecision  Nor is there any mention of TPM in the motherboard manual at all.indecision

    Not Just Me: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/tpm-modules-unobtainable-expensive-windows-11

    ...someone needs to crack down on this. Bad enough GPUs are being bought up by scalpers now they are taking advantage of those who need to update their current systems to comply with W11.  Bloody parasites. 

  • AgitatedRiotAgitatedRiot Posts: 4,627
    edited October 2021

    Does anyone have an MSI board? I have thisMSI Accessory TPM2SPI TPM 20 Module SPI Retail - Newegg.com for free

    Post edited by AgitatedRiot on
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,795
    edited October 2021

    magog_a4eb71ab said:

    Drip said:

    PerttiA said:

    Eyecandy aside, what have they improved if anything?

    And more importantly, what did they screw up this time?
    I really hated it when they introduced the metro UI a few years back, but there's gladly some options and programs to tune that way down nowadays. Sadly, the metro UI also broke several third party UI plugins I used before. So I want to see some critical end-user reviews (so not the ones from gadgeteer early access shills) before even considering to ever "upgrade".

    What did they screw up? This for starters:

    "AMD processors officially compatible with Windows 11, exhibit a three-times increase in L3 cache latency with the new operating system.

    Quoted from:

     AMD Processors Lose 15% Gaming Performance with Windows 11, L3 Cache Latency Tripled 

    Not sure how much of an impact this actually has, but it might affect more than just gamers depending on the task(s) being performed.

    I have a AMD Ryzen 7 5700 APU (Zen 3) and I've noticed a performance improvement. Now I don't doubt that the bug reports are accurate but there is a limit impact to people who don't game. Only gamers are involved in the sort of repetitive cache use over & over such that's you'd actually notice those bugs to any degree at all when you suddenly wasn't as quick reflexed in your games as before. And the other is for CPUs with greater then 8 threads so likely some repetitive AI algorithms used by researchers have taken a hit in performance. The average home user won't hit those type use cases most of the time. 

    Post edited by nonesuch00 on
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,795
    edited October 2021

    AgitatedRiot said:

    Does anyone have an MSI board? I have thisMSI Accessory TPM2SPI TPM 20 Module SPI Retail - Newegg.com for free

    No. I bought this one:

    GIGABYTE GC-TPM2.0_S Motherboard for sale online | eBay

    but then I have a Gigabyte brand motherboard.

    I'm actually not sure though if you have to match the TPM 2.0 module brand name with your motherboard brand name.

    I will note that I paid $26.00 including shipping in November 2020 and now a year later (almost), the price is $62.99 including shipping. Different sellers though. I noticed over the course of 2020 on eBay that these TPM modules were selling out and it looked to be hoarders buying them as they were disappearing from eBay so fast. 

    Post edited by nonesuch00 on
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