How much Sample do we need to get crisp render in Cycles ?
juvesatriani
Posts: 561
In last 3 Day I`ve been trying to re-learn and understand about how DAZ - DIFFEO and Blender work .
IRAY already give me great results, but my 4Gb GPU just not enough in several cases
These 3 images are sample render from Blender ( Middle Image Flipped for easy comparison) .
All rendered in 900 x 1600 px with texture limit to 2048 in Simplify ( for cycles) and Viewport preferences( for Eevee)
Cycles render with Open image denoiser slightly better than eevee but the render time not worth it , For Still image it possible to achieve similar outcome via some light tricks and simple postwork . Meanwhile for Cycles without Denoiser , 1024 samples still seems to low .
So my question is how much samples we need to get crisp render for still image when render using Cycles ? What is bunch of white spot in vanila cycles render (hair area) ?
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Comments
Is your target stills or animation?
The reason I ask is because if your typical output will be
like your test example
(portraits of one single figure in an empty universe),
then there is little advantage
to using Blender/Diffeo over Daz studio /Iray IMHO.
Not even a speed advantage after you factor in the volume based SSS needed for decent portrait shots in still renders in cycles.
Although cycles does offer some slightly better denoising options
So to answer to your question directly there really is no perfect amount of samples
for a still portraits in cycles or Iray ,is is an objective matter of when does it look good enough for you to stop the render and how long are you willing to wait for that point.
I'm using E-Cycles, 128 to 256 samples, 4K, AI Denoiser, render time about 5 to 10 mins...
(I'm using a mobile 3080 with 16 gig vram, the nvidia sweet spot card atm, it is performing like a 3070 desktop card but with a lot of memory)
Will prepare a sfw sample tomorrow.
thanks for detailed answer.
My test is first step to count how long it will takes to get 1 frame done , yeah I`m old school dude who always calculate everything before doing project or getting per frame cost estimation budget for next commerial works
1 frame without props and BG should tell me how long project will be rendered or which one should get low poly treatment ? Character or BG props ? Layering in Post Pro or just throw everything in scene ?
So yes both animation and still will be considered . One for promo and another for cheesy animation shot
Thanks again for your answer
I hear about E -Cycles but never seek info about it . Thanks for let me know and would be awesome for sample test
@juvesatriani A great idea, but enable "Persistent Data" and use the elapsed time for the second frame.
Also, if you're using a single GPU, you might also want to grab the Cycles-X branch and/or try K-Cycles for Cycles-X.
Thanks for instruction I`ll test it . About K or E cycles I`m watching the video about it right now
Thankjs again guys for information
It doesn't really make sense to use cycles without the denoiser, other than for debug purposes. I mean the denoiser is designed to work with cycles and cycles is designed to rely on the denoiser. Then in blender the denoiser takes into account both the albedo and displacement buffers, that iray doesn't, so your renders will always get crisp textures and bumps no matter what the samples are.
Personally I go from 64 to 128 samples in cycles, getting nice results. That's not possible with iray.
As promised some SFW images. Quick-N-Dirty import, Diffeo, G8, 4K maps, no material/texture tweaks, rigify rig. Render time is about two mins. Render settings as shown. Light settings: 2 static area lights, 3 point light rig parented to the main cam. (main, fill, back)
@SDev tahanks for detailed sample images and instruction
@All thanks guys , just trying Cycles X and thats indeed improving the render times . Diffeo 1.5.1 work without problem last time I`ve checked and it seem faster when doing import and compiling shader process
@juvesatriani @sdev
A main breakthrough of 1.6, among other things, is to allow HD expressions. That is, the old 1.5 rig is faster but morphs only drive bones, the new 1.6 rig is slower but morphs also drive displacement maps, thus allowing HD expressions. As for shaders 1.6 converts better some materials and displacement in general.
https://diffeomorphic.blogspot.com/2021/03/new-morph-system.html
https://bitbucket.org/Diffeomorphic/import_daz/issues/357/blender-addon-to-generate-rigged-hd-meshes
@Padone, true, but tbh I use Daz figures only as a starting point, a solid fundament for further steps. Concerning HD - what is your workflow? Xins addon, or Hd Meshes, or both combined?
Just check recent development version of Diffeo . It works in Blender 3.0 Alpha Cycles X branch
So @padone , if I dont use any HD version at all , e.g using Old Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 , which one better ? Keep using 1.5.1 or 1.6.0 ( because it have better shader transalation from DAZ ) ?
And since you`re the shader guy from this awesome tools , I wonder if someday NPR or toon shader conversion will be included in future Diffeo ;)
@sdev I prefer to use multires because true HD figures are too heavy for animation. But they're good for still pictures if one wants to make comics for example.
@juvesatriani Go for 1.6 even if you don't care about HD there are lots of improvements there. A personal advice if you work with G1 G2 then convert them to uber before exporting you'll get much better materials in blender. To convert to uber just apply the uber shader to the figure in daz studio, it's really a couple clicks away. As for npr and other custom shaders that's not going to happen. The material conversion is focused on the uber shader and some support for the G81 pbrskin shader, any other daz shader will not work fine.
@padone I`ve been noticing if I`m doing import /easy import from Blender 3.0 alpha Cycles X branch , Cycles render engine seem failed to compiled the shader . All objects/figure shows silver in top textures beneath it . Meanwhile Eevee part is doing fine . I`m also trying to save to local texture to check if its help
EDIT : Workaround below seem Hit and Miss , sometimes work and doesnt , although 3D shading viewport and eevee doing fine ,so keep in 2.9.3.2 if possible
My workaround with this problem is opening same scene in 2.9.3.2 save all map in local texture , and change render engine to cycles ( so shader will be compilled) and resave and reopen in 3.Alpha Cycles X
@juvesatriani As for the missing textures, I don't know if this can be useful, but some users report missing textures if they get separate disks for content folders. That is, some items in a D disk and others in a E disk for example. Personally I can't reproduce those issues though. Also relative paths don't work across different disks, so be sure to save your scene as absolute paths in blender.
Didn't test 3.0 myself yet though.
@juvesatriani one very helpful built in funktion is the system console. I let that window open on a 2nd monitor, pretty helpful when working with Diffeo :)
Oh, and a very helpful free addon can be found here to keep your files consistent: https://remington.pro/software/blender/atomic/
it might help ypou in many cases (as it did and does for me)
Oh and thank you Alessandro for this one, pretty helpful: https://bitbucket.org/Diffeomorphic/import_daz/issues/661/g81-basic-makeup-and-better-sss-skin
@SDev thanks for info and add on link. DId you tried Blender 3.0 Alpha with Cycles X ? Do you have same problem or not ?
Now I`m constantly getting silver Overlay , both in preview and Final render when using Cycles X . And after trial error I`ve got some Skin preset which work in Cycles X.
Reason why I`m using Cycles X because its faster almost 4X than 2.9.3.2 , even in my old laptop with 4GB GPU
Nope, I'm using E-Cycles 2.93.03, I don't want to f*ck up my files by using an alpha again :P - At least I'm waiting till it is in beta...
If you have one buck left, just try e-cycles light!
Have a look here: https://blenderartists.org/t/e-cycles-fast-professional-rendering-state-of-the-art-render-speed-and-hq-denoising-at-1-now/1139717/4334
Have you looked a K-Cycles?
I'm usually just a Evee user in Blender but if K-Cycles is under $50! I will give it a try. Thanks for heads up.
Blender 3.0 with the new Cycles-X is scheduled for release on December 1.
:)