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All the parts have been ordered...just waiting for them to come in! Completed list -
AMD Ryzen 9 5900X
Lian Li Galahad 360mm AIO cooler
ASUS ROG Crosshair VIII Dark Hero motherboard
64GB G.SKILL Trident Z Neo 3600 CL 16 memory (can expand later to 128GB after my wallet stops crying)
EVGA RTX 3090 FTW3 Ultra (w/ vertical mount bracket and PCie 4.0 riser cable)
SeaSonic PRIME Platinum 1000watt PSU
Samsung 980 Pro PCie 4.0 500GB M.2 (operating system)
Samsung 980 Pro PCie 4.0 2TB M.2 (games)
Samsung 870 Evo 2TB 2.5" (expansion for Daz library)
Samsung 860 Evo 2TB 2.5" (already have this - dedicated to Daz library, almost full)
Samsung 850 Evo 500GB 2.5" (already have this - dedicated to games)
Lian Li o11 Dynamic Razer case
Lian Li UNI SL fans (x12)
I have 64GB with a 3090, and haven't run out of system RAM yet, I recall maybe 48 GB used? That's with having Edge and a ton of tabs open with a video or three, Photoshop, RDP, and a few other assorted programs.
...well 64 GB does leave you with about 15 GB of overhead (after the OS and system processes).
I only mention 3x being optimal if one plans to render more ambitious scenes (like I create) as it's usually caps out at a factor of 3 to 1 between System RAM usage and VRAM usage For example, I was rendering an interior scene with a number of lights and effects, and while it was 4.1 GB in size on the GPU's VRAM, it took just over 12 GB of System memory (out of a total 24 and disocuntin the OS plus system processes) with Daz programme, the render process, and MSI Afterburner running (the l;atter which takes up a minuscule amount of system resources in comparison).
I'm doing research into upgrading my old PT-6 X56 MB to 48 GB of memory as there have been individuals who have been successful with it. The PT-6 and early i7s were released when the largest memory module available for desktops was 4 GB. it will take some poking around in the BIOS but as I have a 6 core Xeon that supports up to 144 GB of memory I should be able to do it. The cost jabout 200$) is also a bit easier on the old bank account than getting an entirely new MB, CPU, and memory (the latter about an 1,800$ expense to be W11 compatible). I already have an 850W PSU which should easily handle the exta load.
I will get an additional 32 gb of RAM for my new system, thanks for the suggestions. I use DAZ for creating comic books and the lagest images I render are 2244 X 964 pixels but on the average they are 1084 X 964 pixels... The image attached (2244 X 964) took 9 minutes to render under a maximum of 67% of my actual ressources. I don't play games, don't use PhotoShop. I use Krita for postwork and rarely openes it at the same time as DAZ.
..very nice. Yeah I don't have PS either (nver coudl afford it when it still came with a perpetual licence and laothe subscription software). Ironically also have Krita, as well as Gimp and an old version of PSP (before they stopped selling the boxed version).
Yeah I tend to do scenes like this:
The latter three are 3DL but illustrate just how complex my scenes can get.
Nice 3DL work Kyoto. I try to work with not to complez scenes but since I have a Nvidia 3090 card I wonder where that will bring me ;-) Wonder when Melissa will get her stuff builted as for sure it will be some monster PC... ;-)
Did you already have that 870 Evo SSD? Reason I ask is because they're a lot slower than PCIe/M.2 . I doubt I'll ever have more than 3-4 drives on my system. I try to keep stuff on as few drives as possible if the bigger drives aren't too expensive. I wanted to go with a single 8 TB Sabrent M.2 drive and use a 10Tb mechanical drive for backups, but those particular Sabrent drives use some kind of RAID 0 configuration on it, plus they're a bit too expensive at this time. How difficult was it for you to get that case? The one I got was hard to find. It's one of the very very few cases that doesn't weigh 50+lbs by itself with the tempered glass, supports the PSU size I needed in conjunction with supporting 2x 360mm radiators and having fan mounting locations on the bottom.
I had a LONG wait for parts. I had my builder start back in late March or early April. Right now everything is assembled except for the RTX A6000, which I'm still waiting on. The most difficult parts to get so far were the tower case, Kingpin 3090, & the RAM(I forget if the builder got the 4x32 or 8x16). More importantly, I got an APC UPS for it.
CASE: Lian Li O11DXL-X O11 Dynamic XL ROG Certified (Black) ATX Full Tower Gaming Computer Case.
CASE/RADIATOR FANS: Thermaltake Riing Quad 12 RGB Radiator Fan TT Premium Edition x10.
CPU: AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3960X 24-core 3.8GHz(4.5GHz boost).
CPU COOLER: Asus Ryujin 360.
MOTHERBOARD: MSI Creator TRX40 Motherboard.
SYSTEM RAM: G.Skill Trident Z Royal DDR4-3200MHz CL16-18-18-38 1.35V 128GB (4x32GB) or G.Skill Trident Z Royal DDR4-3200MHz CL14-14-14-34 1.35V 128GB (8x16GB)
GRAPHICS CARDs: EVGA Kingpin RTX 3090 w/ 360mm radiator & RTX A6000(won't be a PNY brand!).
OS DRIVE: 2TB Rocket Q4 NVMe PCIe 4.0 M.2 2280 Internal SSD Solid State Drive with Heatsink.
STORAGE: Western Digital Black 6TB 3.5" 7200 RPM Internal Mechanical HD(for Daz installation & all content).
MONITOR: ASUS ROG Strix XG279Q 27” HDR Gaming Monitor, 1440P WQHD (2560 x 1440), Fast IPS, 170Hz, G-SYNC Compatible, Extreme Low Motion Blur Sync (ELMB SYNC), 1ms DisplayHDR.
PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA 1600 T2, 80+ TITANIUM 1600W.
OS: Windows10 Pro
heh, you might get your system completed & running before I get mine depending on how long I have to wait for the A6000. I just hope I get it before my Alienware laptop needs servicing because I think something is about to give in it with the clicking noises I'm hearing from the DVD area(haven't tried using it for years, lol) & some of the USB ports being finicky.
I've managed to do some pretty heavy stuff on the 1080TI but with 4.15 and the fact that it uses way way more resources than 4.11/4.12, I can't anymore without jumping through hoops...which is what prompted me to finally light my wallet on fire and do a new build. I'm not one to want to render in layers or use canvases as it just doesn't fit well with my workflow and love of using the Daz in-render bloom filter.
...thank you.
The first one (train station) was Iray and the file alone topped out at 9.2 GB. That was also rendered on the CPU (which took close to 8 hours) as I didn't have a capable GPU yet (only an old GTX 460 with 2 GB of VRAM). The process itself dropped into even more "geologic" swap mode as I only had 12 GB of system memory at the time. Sadly the scene file was lost in a drive crash a couple years ago so when I acquired the Titan-X and upgraded the system memory to 24 GB afterwards, I couldn't run a comparison render. From what I can estimate, the file itself would take up about 3.2 GB in VRAM and probably around 10 GB or so of system memory.(Including the Daz Programme which needs to remain open with the scene). No issue with 24 GB of system memory but it would have cut things very close with only12.
In spite of it's geologic render times, one of the few features I liked about Reality/Lux was once all the scene information was loaded into the Lux render engine, you could shut the scene and even the Daz programme down to save system resources. Wish Iray would work like that.
...same here mainly party because i have stiff and unsteady hands due to severe arthritis and the fact I tend to create very deep, detailed scenes where shadows or reflections from one layer would fall on items in the next one or two behind which would require digitally painting them in using a 2D programme..
Ha ha thet reminds me when I first started rendering Daz in Iray... I had a system with 8 mb of RAM and a GTX 740 card with 2GB of RAM. I let the computer rendering all night long ;-)
...whoops, meant "1 GB of VRAM", late night and I was tired (likely have hit both the "2" and "1" key together). Fixed in the original post.
Dropping the components off this Saturday morning and the builder says he should be done by that afternoon! When I get the system home, have to break down my old desk and bring in the new one so I can finally have something that is organized!
Awesome looking setup. I noticed you're going with the blings and the RGB stuff.
I would suggest going with 128 Gb System RAM. I noticed when I had my 2080Ti, when my VRAM usage was near limit (11 Gb), the system RAM usage was at 40 GB. I would think if you're going to do a scene that push the 3090 VRAM, your system will need more than 64 GB to process them. I think TRoy on Youtube was trying to fit as many G8 figures onto the 3090 VRAM limit, but ran out of system memory @ 19 Gb pf VRAM usage. His system had 64 Gb of system RAM.
In addition, eventho the 3090 GPU runs a little cooler than the 2080Ti, the VRAM temperature on some models can reach or exceed 110°C, so keep an eye one the memory temperature on your card. I( used GPU-Z and HWinfo to monitor). I have a 3090 Founder Edition. I've tested it under full load and it did reach 110°C and it started thermal throtting This was a design flaw by nVidia and many other manufacturerer didn't address this issue. I undervolted my card and was able to bring the temp down to 105, combined with upping my GPU fans speed to 80%, I was able to keep the VRAM temps at a passable 98°C under full load. Even with the 3090, I do 1-2 hr renders (used to be 4-5 hr on my 2080Ti). I've purchased some new 1.5 mm thermal pads and intend to replace the stock thermal pads in the coming week. I'll let you know how that works oout. There are other alternatives to remedy that problem, althought extreme. Convert to water cooling... There are thermal backplates for the EVGA 3090s
The Lian-li PC-011Dynamic is a perfect case for watercooling, It has ample room for two radiators, one for the GPU (360mm Radiator) and one ffor the CPU (280 mm). It also has eccelent airflow.
If you dedide to stick to only aircooling the GPU, The GPU will be the hottest component in your system. Here are two suggestions :
1. Change the case to perhaps a Lian-li Lancool II mesh. This case is more optimize for air cooling. you can mount two Lian-Li SL 140 mm intake fans in the front or 3 LianLi SL120 mm. 1 SL 140 mm on the back as an exhaust fan. The Lian-Li Gallahad on top as exhaust/ and to keep you GPU cool 3 120mm on the bottom as intake. I think all the SL fans use the same Lian-li fan/RGB controls.
2. If you install your GPU vertically, you may lose some airflow to the GPU, With the GPU fans facing the side panel. Verticle mounts are more for aestetics rather than function.
I've already spent over $400 in RAM...I can add another 64GB later.
Keep in mind that the 3090 FTW3 has a different cooler than the Founder's Edition. I believe the Founder's Edition only has 2 fans. In addition, the GPU will be mounted vertically, directly above three intake fans on the bottom of the case. The build I used as reference (mine is identical with the exception of the GPU), made mention that the temps were better with the GPU mounted vertically in that particular case.
Right on Melissa, this is going to be the bomb of a machine!
I've been one of the lucky ones who got a water cooled EVGA RTX 3090 XC3 Ultra Hybrid back in December at regular price of $1,619.99 before they raised it a few weeks later. I tell you it's night and day going from a machine with three GPU's in it (Two 1080ti and a 2080) mostly because of VRAM limitations as you already are frustrated with too. One of my recent scenes used just under 17GB of VRAM in the scene below but I have gotten it slightly higher with less actors in it before. With the hybrid GPU's the chip runs much cooler over fan only units like this one was about 56-57 celsius after 3 hours when the room was 84 degrees fahrenheit (separate office structure that I don't air condition much when it's 100+ here). I also love that the heat is expelled directly out of the case leaving CPU, RAM, drives much cooler. So your riser card mounting will probably go a very long way to keep things cool inside. Attached is the VRAM usage of a simpler scene that got to 15,602MB of VRAM usage. It will be a common site to use 10GB+ as you stop thinking about the limitations of adding actors, etc. and just enjoy creating.
Sorry to side track there but I think you will be so very happy with the 3090. IT ROCKS! And in your hands... oh my word what you will create will just be off the charts!
This scene was just under 17GB of VRAM usage.
Great, as long as the video card receives plenty of cool air, you are golden. The Founder edition only has two fans, Both fans do their job keeping the GPU cool underload (around 65°C underload, It's the VRAMs that I have issues with.
I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures of your rig after completion.
The running temperatures vary a lot between different manufacturers. Since taking a chance on a Palit 1080Ti, I look for their brand first because they tend to build large heatsinks into the design. For space reasons, I bought an EVGA blower version of the 2080ti and I had to spend a lot of time working on fan profiles both for rendering and gaming. With the fan set to 100% at the start of rendering, the card would still reach 84 Celsius fairly easily, and during gaming the fans often ramped up to full.
My recent purchase of a Palit 3090 card has been a great decision. During rendering or gaming the temperature rarely gets above 73 Celsius and usually the fans stay below 50%, which makes it a lot quieter. As others have said, good airflow through the case is important.
I've got a question:
Would you get a laptop with a GEForce RTX 3060 6GB max 105 watts GPU (Gigabyte Brand) or a laptop with a GEForce RTX 3070 8GB max 85 watts GPU (MSI brand).
The hardware specs are pretty similar otherwise. The MSI brand costs $200 more. The Gigabyte has a better display. CPUs are both Intel 11th Gen Tiger Lake with integrated 11th Gen UHD/Iris XE Graphics. Storage Same. RAM same. The Gigabyte can be expanded much more with regards to RAM and SSD though. The HW specs for the RTX 3060 GPU equate to about 3/4 to 4/5 of what the RTX 3070 has, depending on the part of the GPU specs measured, but the RTX 3060 is powered at 105W vs 85W for thr RTX 3070 so that extra power means they should about be even as far as GPU compute power goes; very roughly ballpark speaking. Is that about right, such an estimate?
My other option is to pay another $200 - $300 higher than the MSI laptop and get a 3070 GPU in a laptop powered by 130W maxed power RTX 3070 GPU. However, that is getting close to $2000 then and I feel the upcoming Ada Lovelace architecture will be so much faster as to make spending $2500 on a Ada Lovelace laptop well worth my while and wait. I don't feel the current generation Ampere GPUs has the compute means to motivate that sort of expensive money outlay. For that reason I don't want to spend more than the cost of the $1500 MSI laptop talked about above with the 85W RTX 3070 8GB GPU.
So it comes down to 105W Mobile RTX 3060 6GB GPU vs 85W Mobile RTX 3070 8GB GPU? Is my estimate that they are about equal in computer correct?
Thanks.
The current dip in graphics card prices has to do with a ban on bitcoin mining in China. Unfortunately, it doesn't have to do with their dislike of mining, but a lack of electricity because of failures in their coal industry. Once this is squared away, the prohibition on bitcoin mining will be removed and prices will go back up again.
6 GB of VRAM is pretty anemic now IMO with Daz, so I'd defintely go to the 8GB option. I still wouldn't call 8 GB great, but it's a lot better than 6 GB.
Also serious question - do you need a laptop? It is FAR more expensive to get the same level of video processing power with a laptop vs. a desktop. It's not even close.
If you plan on doing rendering in IRAY, the difference between 6GB's and 8GB's VRAM is what matters,
The biggest scene I have rendered on GPU with my RTX 2070 Super (8GB) was reported by the DS log to use 5.7GiB's of VRAM (Textures, Geometry and Work Space) while at the same time the total usage of VRAM was reported CPU-Z to be 7.8GB's.
With a 6GB GPU, the max VRAM that DS could use, would be around 3.7GiB's and with Working Space needing around 1GiB, the geometry and textures would have less than 2.7GiB - It doesn't take much in a scene to exceed that.
Sure, by plugging in a laptop you get most of the performance most of the time as of a desktop. The times you don't is for most people of no consquence most of the time anyway. I used a 2012 model year laptop to CPU render in DAZ Studio from Mar 2016 to Feb 2020 so I know even an old laptop is capable.
I'm still going to upgrade my desktop CPU to an Ryzen Zen 3 APU called "AMD Ryzen 7 5700G 8-Core, 16-Thread Desktop Processor with Radeon Graphics" but after considering and reconsidering paying scalper's prices for a desktop RTX GPU I've decided I am going to keep my GTX 1650 GPU until the Ada Lovelace GPUs are released and instead until then buy a laptop for non-scalper's prices. And if GPU scalpers repeat their performance with Ada Lovelace desktop GPUs I will again buy a laptop to get the latest GPU architecture and let the scalpers get burnt with their excess stock (eventually it will happen). Excess inventory at excessive prices just won't sell, but of course they are going to create a public impression that seems otherwise.
For the price of an entry level laptop with an RTX 3060 GPU there are only $1000 entry level RTX 3060 desktop GPUs so the question is why would I not pay a fair price for a laptop instead of paying $681 over MSRP for an entry level RTX 3060 12GB desktop card? That's a 300% scalper's markup on that RTX 3060 12GB over MSRP!
The laptop has a display, RAM, SSD, CPU with integrated secondary GPU for the same price as the scalped card. Because of heat a laptop can't be put into service as a cryptomining machine so it's not going to be the case that scalpers have a case for risking their budget to outlay $1000 - $2500 for each RTX equipped laptop they want to scalp and then try to scalp those laptops for the same 300% plus markups as the desktop RTX GPUs? It's not going to be risked because they know they aren't going to sell them if they try & pull that stunt. It's not going to happen.
As far as GPU processing power, very roughly speaking, rendering for 2 minutes a frame on a laptop compared to 1 minute a frame on a desktop is of little consequence when I know Ada Lovelace GPUs are coming 4Q 2022 / 1st 2023. It will take me all of 2022 learning and making one decent set of animations that don't total more than 15 minutes anyway so I won't even have anything worthwhile to render until the end of 2022. It's those Lovelace GPUs that will make spending $1500 on a desktop GPU or $2500 on the topline laptop with GPU actually worth the money. Well, worth my money as I don't have a lot of it and have to save or buy on credit.
Currently, the big thing is the mobile RTX 3060 has 30 RT cores vs the mobile RTX 3070 40 RT cores, 6GB RAM vs 8GB RAM. Most DAZ rendering scenes I do haven't surpassed the 4GB RAM in my GTX 1650 although I do have a couple scenes that do. As I'm more interesting in animation I may have to composite some scenes. Anyway, I don't do rendering of DAZ scenes seriously enough to install the bloat of all my DAZ Studio content on this laptop I'm going to buy. It will be for Marvelous Designer, Blender, Maya, zBrush, UE4, Unity, and Visual Studio. Which together those are quite bloated too, so either laptop I buy I will have to upgrade system RAM to 40GB (MSI laptop)/64GB (Gigabyte laptop) and especially the SSD to 2TB.
Also a somewhat concerning thing, to me at least, is the Gigabyte laptop has a 4K screen at 15.6" while the MSI has a FHD screen at 15.6" while costing $200 more. I know you're thinking 4K, wow!, but at 15.6" I'm afraid the screen will be tiny to create scenes in, not that I just can't connect it to my 2 FHD monitors but who wants to sit at their desk all the time? My eyes are fine but 4K at 15.6" is maybe so tiny as to be really inconvenient most of the time. Does anybody have a laptop with a 4K screen? Do you like it?
LOL, last thing to consider is I really like the backlit dragon on the lid of the MSI laptop (It is GL66 model) while the Gigabyte laptop is just a stylized word, AERO (Aero 15 model I think is the official name but I'm not 100% sure on that). I know I should let that influence me but it does.
(They both look nerdishly stylish but I do like the dragon).
I guess I should search those tech sites to see if their have actually been a side by side comparison of the Gigabyte Aero 15 with RTX 3060 6GB vs the MSI GL66 with RTX 3070 8GB. Who knows, maybe they do somewhere? If the GL66 actually is 20% - 25% faster than the Aero 15 then I definately want the GL66. I've been led to believe though (via a review of the GL66 on the Amazon website by a customer - who may or may not know what they are talking about except limiting to 85W does slow the GPU down compared to allowing it to run at 130W - there is no doubt) the 85W limit on the GL66 GPU limits the performance to be about the same as the 105W limit on the Aero 15 GPU. The 2GB video RAM difference is a minor secondary consideration to the speed. If they are equivalent GPU speedwise then pretty backlit dragon not-withstanding, I must buy the Gigabyte Aero 15 because of it's superior upgradability and 4K screen.
+++++
Found this comparison web site that answered my questions. And yes, the two laptops are pretty much a wash, except the Aero is cheaper and better quality, although not faster, or slower, for that matter.
MSI GL66 Pulse vs Gigabyte Aero 15 OLED (Intel 11th Gen): which is better? | NR (nanoreview.net)
...haven't seen lower prices on the 3060 12 GB. Save for the way overly priced ones (3x MSRP of 329$), most are out of stock.(I've seen them going for upwards of 1,100$ and in one case 1,400$).
System is up and running! It took forever because I also got a new desk, so had to break the old one down in (literal) pieces just to get it out of the room. Downloading some games to test out now, but the builder said everything went great and the GPU tested just fine with a Heaven stress test. It's currently idling at 45C with no fans (just the case fans). CPU is idling at 40C. Everything is dead silent. I'll be posting some pics just as soon as I get everyting cleaned up...so much packing crap to throw away!
Couple pics, sorry for phone camera quality. I'm so happy I didn't go with the XL case as that would have just been entirely too big.
Had a couple hiccoughs with temps as I couldn't figure out why the case fans wouldn't adjust while set on pwm in the Lian Li L Connect software. Turns out that's a very common issue. The solution I found was to uninstall the newer L Connect 2 and instead install the L Connect 1 software. The fans spin up just fine on pwm now, as the controller is routed through the #3 case fan header so there's no reason they shouln't adjust based on the curve I set in the mobo. I gamed for a bit last night and the temps stayed nice. GPU topped out at around 70C but mostly hung out in the 65C range. The CPU sat at about 60 - 65C. Can't complain about those temps under load, especially given that the GPU is air-cooled and puts out more heat than a space heater!
This weekend, the builder is coming over to hook the fan speed controls directly to the motherboard, rather than routing them through the Lian Li controller. I read so much over the past couple days that many people have had/are having the same issue...fan control through the Lian Li controller is definitely lacking. No ability to tune with curves. I'm lucky I was actually able to get the pwm function to work, as most couldn't. But ideally, I'd like to be able to keep those fans on a custom curve without having to go throuth the bios...and I can treat each set of 3 separately. So the Lian Li controller will ideally end up for lighting alone.
Either way, I'm very happy so far. Can't wait to try out a render! I've gotten my library migrated over and Daz pointed to the new build so I should be good to go.
Ooh, lights. Lots of lights. Cool!
And the graphics card looks honkin' fine too.
...looks pretty sinister. Not that it's bad by no means.