Poser support being run down?
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There is no definitive likely scenario. Everything is a gamble. Smaller packs have smaller dollar value... ergo, it takes selling more to equate to higher priced packs. And smaller packs can hit well... sometimes even enuff to pull in 1k... but its not common. Rarer still, would be to consistently pull off a pack that takes only a week and simultaneously always hit that 1k mark.
I agree we do not need vendors supporting Poser or other apps as much as a better conversion system.
I can rig stuff in DS but getting it to work in Poser or Carrara iffy to say the least and rigged in carrara it pretty much stays in carrara.
(some collada export but do not save rigged in studio)
if someone like Dimension3D, Evilinoccence or 3Duniverse to name a few could create a cool conversion application, it would sell like hotcakes!
You could.. All you would need is a parent company (Zygote) to branch off. And you would need to be the people who did the most popular human figures since that was the core that really started it all. And then when you had some money you would need to invest that back into the company to buy and build programs so that you wouldn't be dependent on someone else as far as creating new customers and building business.
I see that the conversation is mainly turning into a DS users-DS content creators debate. Perhaps just an impression?
I always wondered how well products sold once they were off the front page.
I buy my share of new releases, but I also buy after doing keyword searches because I'm looking for something specific.
If you've ever sold anything at a stock photography site (where the catalog may include close to a millions items) and there's really no "front page" or sales to rely on, you know how vital keywords are to getting sales. The people who make the most in stock photography aren't the ones with a few great sellers. They're the ones with enormous catalogs of stuff that's easy to find.
I wonder if writing really well thought out product descriptions that include just about every keyword that a customer might use to find a product would help sales of older items....
For example, if I search for "medieval" (my favorite theme), I ought to get half the store, but I get 178 items. There are a lot of products in the catalog that would fit the theme, but they don't show up in a search.
Yet, something as simple as: "This social creature can be found inhabiting every city you have in your library, medieval or modern, even sci-fi, there is always a place for this Rat Man" from RawArt's Rat Man (not the first thing I'd think of!), it comes up. Good for RawArt -- but I bet there are a bunch of other keywords that could be added to the description to make this fellow show up in a whole lot more searches (FTR I own this guy -- he's great -- but I never thought of having him run through one of Faveral's villages--- hahahaha -- now I HAVE to do it!).
I sometimes think that product descriptions can make or break a vendor who has a back catalog. But perhaps I'm overestimating how many people do keyword searching when they're buying.
As a Poser only user I wanted to add my thanks to the current offerings that support Poser:
Esha's Rowan Trees Megapack
Andrey Pestryakov's Nature - Firs and Pines
and Merlin's Medieval Merchants House Bundle.
I was able to purchase all of the above this week though truthfully it does seem to get harder and harder in this economy to feed my hobby habit...but I do try! *smile*
Support for Poser is very much appreciated! Dani
Would help if the search on the site worked better lol.
What do you expect when you ask mostly DS content creators about them supporting Poser? ;-) (just kidding, no offense mean. just couldn't resist the comment. :red:)
Though, like I mentioned earlier, as a mostly DS user, I feel that same frustration you feel every time I go to R-store... because most of the time, products are only Poser-supported, with no DS support.
Of course, I can go to R-shop, too, asking why they don't do DS support, as it's such a growing market... and they will probably tell me that most of their sales will come from Poser users, or that they don't own DS, and that it's too time consuming to create DS content on top of the Poser creation they do.
So, while I think that it sucks that not both platforms are supported, I do understand why it happens. I might not like it, but it means I spend my money here, and not on the Poser-only-vendors (and some of that stuff they have really makes me drool).
I think the answer boils down to this: Yes, Poser support is dropping off: Here are the economic reasons for it.
Which actually are not terribly surprising. DAZ made a huge bet back about a year ago. Remember that zig where one minute they were charging Poser-like prices for the latest version of D/S, then the next minute they were giving it away free? Annoyed a lot of their long time customers who paid for it (myself included) but they effectively removed the barriers to creating content for D/S at a time when the product was differentiating from Poser (Genesis had just come out).
Genesis was the prototype of all this new technology, and it had it's teething period. Trying to figure out whether to use Genesis or weight-mapped V4 was kind of a toss-up. With Genesis 2 the question is becoming moot, Genesis 2 is clearly better. That isn't a Poser vs D/S issue, DAZ makes both figures. The issue for Poser is coming up with a figure on their own as popular as Genesis 2, because if they don't and they don't fully support Genesis 2, they are in trouble.
So the reason that Poser support is dropping is that demand for Poser enabled products is dropping - I shop the "R" site too, and you notice a lot of new stuff is now gearing towards G2. There was very little offered for Genesis, in fact at this point you can find more G2 entries then G1 overall.
I actually bought the previous two pro versions of Poser, I never took a liking to it. I can understand the frustration of those that have taken the time to master it with the current situation here. But frankly I have gotten to the point I can create content in D/S myself, and I have yet to master Poser even to use it well. What will be interesting is to see what Smith-Micro's next move is, because they need to make one.
What do you expect when you ask mostly DS content creators about them supporting Poser? ;-) (just kidding, no offense mean. just couldn't resist the comment. :red:)
Though, like I mentioned earlier, as a mostly DS user, I feel that same frustration you feel every time I go to R-store... because most of the time, products are only Poser-supported, with no DS support.
Of course, I can go to R-shop, too, asking why they don't do DS support, as it's such a growing market... and they will probably tell me that most of their sales will come from Poser users, or that they don't own DS, and that it's too time consuming to create DS content on top of the Poser creation they do.
So, while I think that it sucks that not both platforms are supported, I do understand why it happens. I might not like it, but it means I spend my money here, and not on the Poser-only-vendors (and some of that stuff they have really makes me drool).
No worry, I like humour and I am not offended. ;)
I just wanted to say that Poser users seem to have left the conversation which would rather suggest that the discussion seems pointless...
Thank you though for the suggestion to spend my money elsewhere... :) I will perhaps ask DAZ what they think of it. I bet that they will laugh and tell me that it is a judicious suggestion. ;)
I no longer support poser primarily as I no longer have access to a working copy and I'm reluctant to fork out for it just for development purposes.
As other PAs have echoed, its more than just CF files, all the mats need to be rebuilt and that can take ALOT of time if the product is material heavy.
I know its tough for customers to understand, but also PAs have to be business minded about content creation too if they want it to make it into a sustainable living, while most of us love what we do, one factor is the amount of time spent on something verses the pay off. e.g if products with Poser CF sold significantly better than those without, unfortunately from my own personal experience - this is not the case, it seems to make little to no impact on sales figures.
I'm trying to work this out. If I select a figure and Create a New Node Instance from the menu I get a copy but it seems to be locked to the original. If I change the pose of the original the copy changes it's pose as well.
Poser can create a copy that can be posed independently of it's original. Can you do this in Daz Studio?
Ooops, just found another menu entry under edit that does this. Don't why I never spotted this before, maybe because these options all talk about nodes I assumed it was all to about figure creation and rigging.
I was looking at Midnight Huntress for Genesis 2 Female(s)
http://www.daz3d.com/ignisserpentus/midnight-huntress-for-genesis-2-female-s
I thought with C4D I could model that in 8 hours easy ,map with one click zBrush ,77 texture with zBrush ah, have no idea I'll guess a long time.
then I got to all those morphs ,that's a insane amount of morphs.
and got V4,5,6, G 4,6 stef 5.
Now I'm thinking a month just don't sound that long to me.
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http://www.daz3d.com/compatibility-matrix
does auto fit really work well for all the G2 morphs ?
If a vendor don't buy all these morphs
V6,A6,S6,Gianna6,O6,Giri6,Giselle 6,Gia 6,Josie 6.
To check the auto fit cloth morphs and if they don't work perfectly
won't the customer get there $$$ back ?
Right. A month is not long at all for a finished product. In some ways the model can be the quickest part to finish. (Blanket assumption, not speaking for all PAs, acknowledging everyone has different working styles.) Looking at Iggy's example above, it has six textures, in addition to every kind of adjustment morph one can think of, fits for the major figures, plus a prop and poses. Then when the product is "finished" you have to add time for personal testing before it even goes to DAZ. Then you are close to be half done as you have to make promos to convince DAZ, and ultimately the customers, think they want the item. It doesn't matter how many cool features your item has, if it doesn't show off in the promos it might as well not exist. Speaking for myself, and I've heard others say the same, the promos can take as long, or longer than making the actual product.
Customers are savvy. They expect, and rightly so, top quality from everything sold here, and more options than ever before. Most customers will spot in an instant something was slapped together or rushed. They won't buy it, and their opinion of the vendor will go down, making future sales less likely. Quality takes time.
To answer this for what I was thinking, how many items have you bought in the last week that you actually paid $10 or more for? That would be the actual amount of money paid on the item after discounts, coupons etc. Last week, I paid more than $10 for exactly two PA items. Most of what I bought last week was considerably less than that. How many of those vendors had a new release the week before? None. That's what I meant by unlikely combination.
The vendor that occurs to me at the moment who comes closest is Raw Art, who I think typically gets out 2-3 products a month, and the selling price is right around the $10 mark. Most of us can only manage 4-12 products a year. Those that do get more than that out are not selling at $10.
I shoot for two products a month ;)
Sometimes I do more if it is a theme bundle...but usually two a month is my goal.
(I also make much more than minimum wage...but that is only because i have a huge catalog)
Rawn
I was looking at Midnight Huntress for Genesis 2 Female(s)
http://www.daz3d.com/ignisserpentus/midnight-huntress-for-genesis-2-female-s
I thought with C4D I could model that in 8 hours easy ,map with one click zBrush ,77 texture with zBrush ah, have no idea I'll guess a long time.
then I got to all those morphs ,that's a insane amount of morphs.
and got V4,5,6, G 4,6 stef 5.
Now I'm thinking a month just don't sound that long to me.
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http://www.daz3d.com/compatibility-matrix
does auto fit really work well for all the G2 morphs ?
If a vendor don't buy all these morphs
V6,A6,S6,Gianna6,O6,Giri6,Giselle 6,Gia 6,Josie 6.
To check the auto fit cloth morphs and if they don't work perfectly
won't the customer get there $$$ back ?
The Genesis version took me a couple days to model. I dont bodybag... I build all my meshes from a single polygon. Im also not working in C4D, but Silo.... which please note, I do own C4D and can model in it.... Silo is faster, as its built for speed.
Also, I dont map in Z... I hand pelt map it in uvlayout. Z is ok... if you have a way to split the edges pre-emptively.... otherwise, it makes a mess.
It took another few days to morph it, with all the morphs I put in... tack on another couple to rig/adjust WM's/set up rigidity and JCM it.
Now we are at 2 weeks easy.
It has 5 texture sets for all the pieces.... we're now at another week, to do them, save them out, make mats.
Throw in the character, which had 6 skins, which had to be built brand new as I didnt have any shaders for them, or the glowing eyes (which I think took about a week all on its own) doing seams on the character/figures in bodypaint and thumbs... poses for the character and that worked with the bow/arrow..... now at 3-4 weeks.
Then... it took easily another week to do the G2 conversion.
You also dont consider the amount of time it takes to do the promos.... and testing. I pre-test everything before I even upload it to DAZ to test
Its not as quick as folks think lol
Rawn, I notice the frequency of your new items more than most because I usually buy them. ;-)
I was also going to speculate that you must have a super streamlined workflow that has developed over years of experience, an idea book with 3 years worth of potential projects, and that it is just possible you might work over 8 hours a day, but I didn't want to speak for you.
The back catalog is all important in achieving a sustainable monthly income. Agreed 100%.
Yeah....It is a full time job...and then some ;)
Rawn
The Genesis version took me a couple days to model. I dont bodybag... I build all my meshes from a single polygon. Im also not working in C4D, but Silo.... which please note, I do own C4D and can model in it.... Silo is faster, as its built for speed.
Also, I dont map in Z... I hand pelt map it in uvlayout. Z is ok... if you have a way to split the edges pre-emptively.... otherwise, it makes a mess.
It took another few days to morph it, with all the morphs I put in... tack on another couple to rig/adjust WM's/set up rigidity and JCM it.
Now we are at 2 weeks easy.
It has 5 texture sets for all the pieces.... we're now at another week, to do them, save them out, make mats.
Throw in the character, which had 6 skins, which had to be built brand new as I didnt have any shaders for them, or the glowing eyes (which I think took about a week all on its own) doing seams on the character/figures in bodypaint and thumbs... poses for the character and that worked with the bow/arrow..... now at 3-4 weeks.
Then... it took easily another week to do the G2 conversion.
You also dont consider the amount of time it takes to do the promos.... and testing. I pre-test everything before I even upload it to DAZ to test
Its not as quick as folks think lol
That's a really great run down of time. I wish I could work that fast but I'm juggling hairdressing and my health stuff so I'm ALLOT slower! lol and I'm just getting started in all this.
I understand that it is sometimes difficult to support both DS and Poser with sets like the Old Railway (three packages)...
The Genesis version took me a couple days to model. I dont bodybag... I build all my meshes from a single polygon. Im also not working in C4D, but Silo.... which please note, I do own C4D and can model in it.... Silo is faster, as its built for speed.
Also, I dont map in Z... I hand pelt map it in uvlayout. Z is ok... if you have a way to split the edges pre-emptively.... otherwise, it makes a mess.
It took another few days to morph it, with all the morphs I put in... tack on another couple to rig/adjust WM's/set up rigidity and JCM it.
Now we are at 2 weeks easy.
It has 5 texture sets for all the pieces.... we're now at another week, to do them, save them out, make mats.
Throw in the character, which had 6 skins, which had to be built brand new as I didnt have any shaders for them, or the glowing eyes (which I think took about a week all on its own) doing seams on the character/figures in bodypaint and thumbs... poses for the character and that worked with the bow/arrow..... now at 3-4 weeks.
Then... it took easily another week to do the G2 conversion.
You also dont consider the amount of time it takes to do the promos.... and testing. I pre-test everything before I even upload it to DAZ to test
Its not as quick as folks think lol
That's a really great run down of time. I wish I could work that fast but I'm juggling hairdressing and my health stuff so I'm ALLOT slower! lol and I'm just getting started in all this.
Well, it doesnt go nearly as fast when you are new or new to something. It takes time to get a workflow that works quickly and works for you and to get used to what u are doing. I also change my workflow regularly... when I find things that I think will taper it even more, but that works two ways... Ive added to it too, when I find things that make something better. And even with the fastest workflow.... some things still take more than a month (like the one Im working on has... but its really big and involved)
Yea, working on a 8 piece clothing set for a figure I can't discuss (non DAZ). I really did jump in feet... no make that body first! lmao
This makes sense to me.
As a user I made the choice based on cost and primary figure...
To get the version of Poser that has the one features d/s lacks would cost me over $200. And that is with an upgrade discount. If I could buy dynamic cloth as a plugin down the road, I would just get base Poser - but even that is ove $70.
EDIT: I was wrong about that Poser thing. Turns out the one feature Daz Studio lacks is in the basic Poser version: Dynamic Cloth creation. So I guess upgrading my Poser would not be as pricey, and its mostly a dual support / time versus profits recovered issue.
Were I a vendor here, I would have to wonder if that cost was worthwhile.
Most of the poser community seems to be on another website, where they prefer a set of figures no longer popular in the daz community.
Were I a merchant I would probably make two items; one for g2f here, and one for v4 there... compate the sales and user feedback... and then commit to one of these bases on which community seemed to like my artistic style more.
Again as a user, when I came back to 3d I noticed the daz studio userbase was favoring a new versatile figure with good backward support once I bought the right plugins. The poser comunity also had newer figures, but seemed to primarily ignore them in favor of an almost 6 or 8 year old figure. So I made the choice to switch communities.
Were I a merchant, I would feel working in such an old line could be risky - limited growth potential.
So were I a merchant I would have to buy my ability to support that other line, for an aging product, at extensive additional time to develop, for possibly ever shrinking revenue.
But if I go ti the poser websites, it is obvious many merchants are very successful doing just that.
- i'mjust not so sure its easy to support both.
They have Poser sells from time to time. get on the poser mailing list they will be sure to let ya know ;)
poser users are divide up a lot .some use older versions of Poser that can only use V4
and some use pro 14 for videos ,some fussion,
and some with game engines like http://unity3d.com/ & https://www.unrealengine.com/
the last version of Poser was for Games.
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Thanks for all the explanations and info very helpful :)
I only have V6 at the moment.so I can't check for my self.
If I made a out fit for V6 how well would it work with
Olympia 6,Stephanie 6,Aiko 6,Giselle 6,Gia 6,The Girl 6,Teen Josie 6.
is auto fit good enough or would I need to buy all the morphs and fit cloths buy hand to each morph ?
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I have nothing against Silo it's a fine modeler.I was just saying my home work flow.
I'm trying to learn Blender at least then I could afford the upgrades :)
Blender reminds me a lot of Lightwave.
I try to keepup with everything in CGI ,not easy thou.
but these are some cool app's that's built for speed texturing.
http://quixel.se/
http://www.allegorithmic.com/
This makes sense to me.
As a user I made the choice based on cost and primary figure...
To get the version of Poser that has the one features d/s lacks would cost me over $200. And that is with an upgrade discount. If I could buy dynamic cloth as a plugin down the road, I would just get base Poser - but even that is ove $70.
Were I a vendor here, I would have to wonder if that cost was worthwhile.
Most of the poser community seems to be on another website, where they prefer a set of figures no longer popular in the daz community.
Were I a merchant I would probably make two items; one for g2f here, and one for v4 there... compate the sales and user feedback... and then commit to one of these bases on which community seemed to like my artistic style more.
Again as a user, when I came back to 3d I noticed the daz studio userbase was favoring a new versatile figure with good backward support once I bought the right plugins. The poser comunity also had newer figures, but seemed to primarily ignore them in favor of an almost 6 or 8 year old figure. So I made the choice to switch communities.
Were I a merchant, I would feel working in such an old line could be risky - limited growth potential.
So were I a merchant I would have to buy my ability to support that other line, for an aging product, at extensive additional time to develop, for possibly ever shrinking revenue.
But if I go ti the poser websites, it is obvious many merchants are very successful doing just that.
- i'mjust not so sure its easy to support both.
All right, I'm willing to share some numbers on a couple of older products so you can see the trends a lot of us are working from. I don't really depend on clothes for my living now, but I did at one point.
I sold two pairs of jeans for V4 and M4 at Rendo starting in 2010, they're still up in my store. These were my first "good sellers" at that site back in the day. Over the subsequent four years, the female set sold a total of 170 copies. My total earnings were about $600 over the course of the product's total existence to date.
The Dirty Denim set for Genesis 1 went up in my DAZ store in April 2013. It sold 172 copies in its first week and has sold about 400 copies in the year and change it's been up. In that time it has made me about $2000, more than 3x the amount the jeans at Rendo made me even those were up for twice as long.
(The male Skinny Jeans for M4 actually did better than the female ones, a typical fact for my own work, and have made about $1000 over that four years. That's still half as much as the DAZ set, of course. Male clothing products often do better for me because I love making male clothes, and I tend to turn in my best performance when I feel most inspired.)
This is one moderately successful product for a figure that is no longer current. I can assure you that the numbers for my male underwear set at DAZ vs. the one at Rendo are even more dramatic.
I just wanted to say as an aspiring vendor, this thread has been a great read, thanks for having this conversation.
Up until recently, I didn't know that Poser was still something that many people use, but it was never something that I followed. It makes sense, familiarity with the product, have a bunch of paid-for content. Someone asked if I'd support Poser with my hotel model, and there was a mention that there was little reason not to. It's a pretty hefty price tag for a new vendor, unless they offer special licensing, not to mention the time I'd need to learn what needs to be done to set up even a simple prop. I don't know how comparable the software and features are to D|S, but after seeing the immense options for characters in Studio, the money issue, uncertainty of potential customers... Poser support really doesn't look very appealing to me.
The sales figures vendors get really sadden me knowing how much this hobby costs.
I have earnt $1400 to date on Google ADSense monetising my silly videos!
I am averaging $1 a day now but it is dropping off a bit.
My content totaled over $6000 last time I checked
software?
well Octane and Zbrush the biggies and I have barely looked at the latter, I bought it with my youtube earnings so feel less guilty about that than I would have otherwise.
Carrara, PP2014, iClone5 & 3Dxchamge pipeline, Crazytalk, Terrain builder and other iClone packs
all adds up to more than the car I had to buy in a hurry when I wrote off my old one in a crash 3 years ago and took a loan out for
but
I would NOT have banked it if I did not have this hobby!!
I would NOT have assets to show for it
nice thought it could have gone to charity but not terribly likely
has no bearing on what I have given at all
I MIGHT be MORE overweight and with an alcoholic liver though!
So I do not feel guilty in any way
anyway the reason for this post
is I am NOT the most addicted user by anymeans
my content library PALES to some
and MOST vendors buy content too
a hobby is all this can really be not a living for most
so understand not supporting Poser
why a better conversion system would really be the BEST answer
YUP YUP YUP!!!
Poser users have not all left the conversation! I'm still here. LOL.
Thing is, other than a few extremely vocal people at other websites, I don't think the Poser/DS divide is as big as people believe. When it comes to "most" Poser users, I expect they don't need extremely realistic human figures and are quite satisfied with the native Poser characters (hard as that is to imagine). Or they create their own content. We just never hear from these people.
Of those who are hobbyists or semi-professional, like most of us, I'll bet a whole lot would be quite happy to use Genesis1&2. I certainly am. There are a few small limitations to their use in Poser, but overall, they work very well indeed. However, there is an impression in the Poser community that DSON importation doesn't work or doesn't work well. And it's probably still going to take quite some time before that impression finally goes away. If it does, you might start seeing more Poser users. But in the meantime, if everyone has decided that the software is not worth supporting -- and I don't blame anyone for coming to that conclusion -- it may never happen. I hope it does happen, if for no other reason than that I'd like to see those vendors who continue to support Poser getting a few more sales for their effort.
In any case, I use Poser because I cannot for the life of me manage to get a render out of DS that looks good. Possibly, after my next computer upgrade, I'll have a good, solid pair of Nvidia GPUs and can use Octane to render. I may find myself using DS in that case. I don't blame the software, since people are creating fantastic images with it. It's just me... I'm useless with it.
Anyway, as I said before, I don't own the whole Daz store yet -- so there's still plenty of reason to shop here. :) And I do appreciate that Daz Originals are Poser compatible and that the DSON importer works. To me, this makes a huge difference, and I'm very glad they made the effort to get the plugin to the point it is today. And also that the vendors who create the DO's make the sacrifice for the sake of we few, we Poser few, we band of brothers (and sisters). :)
we will never get to see the whole picture ,all we get to do is look threw a key hole.
Powerage has 7 pages so I guess he makes good with residuals and all.
I always thought Aery soul made good. they where vender of the year a few times.
lilflame Renderosity vender of the month has 4 pages of 50% off $5.00 outfits for V4.
That's just doesn't seem to be screaming money thou does it.
but if every one boult everything in lilflame store might have been a lot.
we always end up guessing thou don't we.
all I know for sure is DAZ built a empire being a poser vender.
now we have Poser and DAZ Studio so we can build a empire easier then DAZ ,Right ;)